We claim to like firm and fast conditions, but have you ever really experienced

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the greens are really firm and conditions are windy, if the fairways are not maintained similarly and the course not designed for ground game options, it wouldn't really add to the fun.

Why wouldn't the fairways be maintained the same, F&F ?

Why would a course choose to maintain their greens F&F but their fairways slow and green ?

Why the bifurcation ?
[/b]
I love playing in Ireland and the UK where the greens and fairways play at a similar firmness AND speed

That's certainly the goal.
But, as you know, in tropical or semi-tropical areas, that's a hard bill to fill.

I can't imagine those conditions in July, August and September when the heat and rain descend upon courses is south Florida.

Certainly Mother Nature, combined with soil conditions will dictate terms, but, where they're favorably inclined, only the culture of the club and perhaps finances, prevent clubs from striving for F&F.

[jeffwarne]

If the greens are really firm and conditions are windy, if the fairways are not maintained similarly and the course not designed for ground game options, it wouldn't really add to the fun.

Why wouldn't the fairways be maintained the same, F&F ?

Why would a course choose to maintain their greens F&F but their fairways slow and green ?

Why the bifurcation ?
[/b]
I love playing in Ireland and the UK where the greens and fairways play at a similar firmness AND speed

That's certainly the goal.
But, as you know, in tropical or semi-tropical areas, that's a hard bill to fill.

I can't imagine those conditions in July, August and September when the heat and rain descend upon courses is south Florida.

Certainly Mother Nature, combined with soil conditions will dictate terms, but, where they're favorably inclined, only the culture of the club and perhaps finances, prevent clubs from striving for F&F.

No reason to attempt that in summer down there-and even up north if it's brutally hot.
If we ever get cultures to firm and fast, green speeds should be reasonable where the emphasis is on firm.
Sadly, the emphasis is on fast at most places.
When clubs start posting a daily firmness rating, then I know we;ve gone too far

[JESII]

Pat,

Would you say Seminole's design is accomodating to the bouncing the ball in when the greens are that firm?

I've only played the course once or twice when it was as you describe and I thought it was brutal...fun, but brutal.

A friend of mine went down to the Coleman a few years ago and my advice was to plan on lying up to the front edge of many greens if he was coming in from even the slightest degree of a bad angle...even with sand wedge in his hands.

[Tim Martin]

Tyler,

At first blush, one can understand your position.

However, the members at Seminole like those conditions.

They've adjusted to them.

So, conditions that surprise and perplex us, have become routine to them.

It's the period of adjustment that's the critical element.

If I played there for a week or regularly, I'd adapt to those conditions quite well.

The member was the 18 handicap.

He's 70 and his only issue was whether he should be playing from the white tees since he's gotten shorter over the years.

Never once did he complain about firmness or pace.

His issues revolved around distance, and I understand that.

We've gotten spoiled.

We want golf courses to present themselves to OUR advantage.
We want "fairness"

Golfers not used to those conditions go ballistic when they hit a marginal or bad shot that runs too far, then off the green and down into a bunker or tightly mown area.

Those conditions have been adapted to by the membership.
It's only outsiders who complain.

Why, because those conditions, the conditions everyone on GCA.com claims to embrace, produce a result that's unkind to us, when we're first introduced to them.

There's a "sticker shock" so to speak, upon our introduction to those conditions, conditions the members love.

Pat-I think the membership at Winged Foot espouse the same sort of conditions you are describing at Seminole. Obviously the topography is different but you have the same type of conditions on the greens where there is that level of "sticker shock" for the occasional or first time player.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

I had a conversation with a fellow who was about to become a green chairman at a course I'm very familiar with.

He mentioned that he wanted to narrow the fairways. (they had already been narrowed, twice, when the original automated irrigation system was introduced decades ago, and again, when its replacement was introduced)

I asked him why he wanted to narrow the fairways.

He said, "to make the course harder".  I said "why" ?   He said, "because the course had gotten easier with the new hi-tech equipment."  Then I asked how many golfers broker 80 in the club championship qualifier the previous year.  He didn't know, so I told him, only one player.  Then I said, "so if only one of our best golfers can break 80, why do you want to make the course harder ?"
He had no answer.

The problem is, every golfer, when watching a PGA Tour event on TV hears the announcer say how holes were narrowed and/or lengthened in order to retain its defenses against the best golfers in the world, and automatically club Presidents and Green Chairman think they have to bolster the architectural defenses at their club by lengthening and/or narrowing the fairways.

The particular club has greens that sit at unique angles, angles that have been lost over the years due to narrowing.

Now, the best angle to come in from has a bunker, heavy rough or trees where fairway used to be.

It's winter, get out the chain saws.  The mowers and dirt can wait until spring (;

[JMEvensky]

Pat,I bet he narrows the fairways anyway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Would you say Seminole's design is accomodating to the bouncing the ball in when the greens are that firm?

Yes, but, I think there's an inherent problem that perhaps some superintendents can address.

It's been my understanding that the shorter the grass the greater the need for water.
If that's true, then the greens would need more water than the surrounds.
But, the surrounds are rough and fairway, hence that excess water would make them less conducive to F&F play.

Remember, we're talking about a course in South Florida, not the UK

And, most greens are elevated above their surrounds, making them drain better.

So, it's probably easier to get the greens F&F than the surrounding areas[/b]

I've only played the course once or twice when it was as you describe and I thought it was brutal...fun, but brutal.

A friend of mine went down to the Coleman a few years ago and my advice was to plan on lying up to the front edge of many greens if he was coming in from even the slightest degree of a bad angle...even with sand wedge in his hands.

I think someone got carried away with respect to some of the conditions at the Coleman.
When a seasoned player, a good golfer and member six (6) putts the 18th green to lose the tournament, he didn't screw up, someone else did.  Hopefully, there won't be any attempts to embarrass competitors, intentionally or unintentionally.

When it's right, it's a blast to play, one hell of a challenge that's just fun....... if you don't take yourself and your game too seriously.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,I bet he narrows the fairways anyway.


You might be right.

But, if he does, I'm not so sure that he'll enjoy himself when he comes to the club.

[JESII]

Pat,

I agree on your last point about enjoying the challenge.

On the first point, I think I asked my question poorly...do you think the openings to the greens are adequate for a course that is frequently prepared as Seminole is?

I count restricted ground game approaches on #2, #3 (although the short nature of the hole may permit it), #5, #7, #8, #10, #11, #12, #13, #14 (but same allowance as #3), #15 (ditto)and #17.

[Pete_Pittock]

One time was at Littlestone in September of 1997. I hit a decent drive on the opening hole and ended up a lot closer to the green than expected. I was a bit leery so I played a pitch and run from about 50 yards and ended up about 20 yards past the green.
I thought it was going to b a good shot towards a front middle pin. Needless to say I played defense the rest of the day and was still frazzled.
Back in the late 70s Tualatin CC had a center line irrigation system. I hit many scraming slices that went through about 25 yards of brown 'rough', them somehow missed all the tree trunks in a 40 yard wide forest of doug fir and ended up in the middle of the next fairway. Sometimes the best option was to declare the ball unplayble and return to the tee. 
Usually if you can hear your tee shot hit the fairway its firm and fast. If you can hear the next bounce, tremble.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I agree on your last point about enjoying the challenge.

On the first point, I think I asked my question poorly...do you think the openings to the greens are adequate for a course that is frequently prepared as Seminole is?

I count restricted ground game approaches on #2, #3 (although the short nature of the hole may permit it), #5, #7, #8, #10, #11, #12, #13, #14 (but same allowance as #3), #15 (ditto)and #17.

Doesn't the answer differ, based upon the skill/handicap of the golfer ?

Let's take # 2.
You and I are going to fly it to the hole.
But, a higher handicap may hit his second just short and left of the bunkers.  From there he can bump and run a shot to the green.
Same for # 3.
Some holes are purely aerial, like the par 3's,  # 5 and # 17, and there's no way around that.
Same with SOME of the par 4's like # 12 and # 16.

On # 8, it was playing at 228 to the hole, downwind, and I tried to hit a low 3-iron to the front of the green, about a 200 yard carry.
I'd been hitting the ball fairly low all day, so of course I hit a perfect, HIGH 3-iron that hit just short of the green, on the upslope, and stayed there.  So much for execution.

I think you have to examine the play of Seminole, not solely in the context of your game, a superior player, but, in the context of all golfers.

Let's take the 18 handicap I was playing with.
On # 8, he's content to hit short of the green, chip up and take his chances with a putt.
If he one putts, he makes par for birdie.  If he two putts, he make bogey for par.

You have to do that on every hole.

On # 10 I hit a good drive and had 90 yards.
Now you have to question my decision to hit driver with the water left.  Ran hit driver and had no stance as his ball was on the waters edge.  As I stood over my approach I was thinking about a bump and run, but, that's a dicey green, so I hit the sand wedge to 8 feet below the hole and missed the putt because Ran was thinking evil thoughts.

A higher handicap can't reach the water, so their drive is safe, their second can be short, or they might opt to bail out right, leaving them a dicey chip toward the water, but, again, their strategy, their game plan differs dramatically from yours and mine, and that's part of the beauty and genius of Seminole.

When you see women and 80 year old guys playing and having a good time during and after the round, you have to know that Donald Ross created something really special at Seminole.  It has universal appeal to a broad spectrum of golfers.
What could be better than that ?

[JESII]

I agree with all of that, thanks...


better save this post for posterity!

[Mike Hendren]

Our nine holer back home had no fairway irrigation and even the bermuda would bake out on really hot summers.  You simply could not afford to miss an approach to the tiny pushed up greens that sloped heavily up in the rear.  Miss left or right from any distance and the ball would run 30 to 40 yards beyond the green with no chance for an up and down over the high bank in the rear of each green.

The upside is we all learned to play the bump and run from behind the greens with a mid-iron.  Zero chance to flop the sh0t onto the green. 

The key on approach shots was to either hit well short of the green or just on the front edge.  Anything in between was stopped dead in the bermuda bank irrigated by the greenside sprinklers. 

A great place to learn the ground game, which the farmers quickly mastered.

Mike

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

I read the OP. It seemed like the sort of conditions you'll often encounter on the links in high summer.

I agree with you that when many people say they love a course F&F, they are talking about moderate firmness and a sporty speed on the mown grass, not the cricket pitch hardness and swiftness of un-irrigated fescue.

The shots you describe are not uncommon on links in summer. The golfer simply has to adjust, but the regular links golfer is at an advantage in that he knows the cycle through the year, he can play himself into that level of firmness as the course changes in the spring and he has practiced the shots.

A hit-and-run visitor is likely to say it's too hard, too fast and too gimmicky because his "good shots" are going to get belted.

It's great golf, but it is not golf as most golfers throughout the world know it.

Your partner who couldn't hit L wedge, then putted into a bunker made an error one or two shots earlier for which he was punished further down the hole. In those conditions, he shouldn't have been where he was.

That to me is the greatest joy and intrigue of links golf, or any really F&F golf: the bad angles become horrible (at times impossible) and the good angles become crucial. The importance of placing your ball with consideration for the next shot becomes greater the firmer the ground and faster the surface becomes.

[Sean_A]

Sean Arble,

I had a conversation with a fellow who was about to become a green chairman at a course I'm very familiar with.

He mentioned that he wanted to narrow the fairways. (they had already been narrowed, twice, when the original automated irrigation system was introduced decades ago, and again, when its replacement was introduced)

I asked him why he wanted to narrow the fairways.

He said, "to make the course harder".  I said "why" ?   He said, "because the course had gotten easier with the new hi-tech equipment."  Then I asked how many golfers broker 80 in the club championship qualifier the previous year.  He didn't know, so I told him, only one player.  Then I said, "so if only one of our best golfers can break 80, why do you want to make the course harder ?"
He had no answer.

The problem is, every golfer, when watching a PGA Tour event on TV hears the announcer say how holes were narrowed and/or lengthened in order to retain its defenses against the best golfers in the world, and automatically club Presidents and Green Chairman think they have to bolster the architectural defenses at their club by lengthening and/or narrowing the fairways.

The particular club has greens that sit at unique angles, angles that have been lost over the years due to narrowing.

Now, the best angle to come in from has a bunker, heavy rough or trees where fairway used to be.

It's winter, get out the chain saws.  The mowers and dirt can wait until spring (;

Pat

As you well know, the firmer a course the wider the playable areas need to be.  It isn't much fun having to hit a high lay-ups or low scuttlers all day because the course can't handle firm conditions. 

For courses that don't have watered fairways it is not uncommon for the fairways and greens to get out of balance because the greens will be watered.  This is the only real problem with unwatered fairways, but it is rare for it to be a serious problem end then it won't last long.  Of course I don't actually see that many really fast courses, maybe one a year if I am lucky.  Usually, its the garden variety f&f which isn't unusual in GB&I.  Still, I don't look at really fast courses as the ideal, only a stop along the seasonal cycle of an ideally kept course.  Really fast for a short stint in summer is sort of like in the winter when its a bit too wet, but very acceptable.  The goal is to keep the course as firm as possible throughout the year while keeping the green/fairway balance as much as is reasonable.  So what is firm in one area may not be in another.  It doesn't really matter so long as the potential is maxed within reason.

Out of balance course, but hard to avoid in a drought - fairway on the edge.


A much better balance, but the fairway is nowhere near as fast as above and it still has some room to brown off - its not on the edge.


Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, a couple of years ago our pro went down to Seminole with Downing Gray to play in a pro-am event.  The conditions were exactly as you describe.  Downing would never say this, but our pro said the course was virtually unplayable.   Very windy, very firm, impossible to stop the ball near the hole.

And he is a very good player for a club pro.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

It's rare to ever see a ballmark at Kingsley.  I think it takes a special membership to appreciate f+f conditions in this country.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, a couple of years ago our pro went down to Seminole with Downing Gray to play in a pro-am event.  The conditions were exactly as you describe.  Downing would never say this, but our pro said the course was virtually unplayable.   Very windy, very firm, impossible to stop the ball near the hole.

And he is a very good player for a club pro.

Bill,

I suspect that the conditions were a shock to his "golf system"

I also suspect that he was from up north and thus didn't have much golf under his belt when you teed it up.

Being introduced to those conditions for the first time under tournament conditions can be more than intimidating.

But, I bet he'd adjust to them just fine with time.

Sean Arble,

Great pictures.

It sure looks like the marginal shot is doomed on that first picture.

[Dean Stokes]

Pat, a couple of years ago our pro went down to Seminole with Downing Gray to play in a pro-am event.  The conditions were exactly as you describe.  Downing would never say this, but our pro said the course was virtually unplayable.   Very windy, very firm, impossible to stop the ball near the hole.

And he is a very good player for a club pro.

Bill,

I suspect that the conditions were a shock to his "golf system"

I also suspect that he was from up north and thus didn't have much golf under his belt when you teed it up.

Being introduced to those conditions for the first time under tournament conditions can be more than intimidating.

But, I bet he'd adjust to them just fine with time.

Sean Arble,

Great pictures.

It sure looks like the marginal shot is doomed on that first picture.

Pat, I don't think it matters whether you are from up North or you live in North Palm Beach and play golf 7 times a week. You will never be fully adjusted to Seminoles greens that are rock hard and extremely fast unless you play there "a lot". Add the 30 mph winds off the ocean to that and it is THEE hardest short golf course in the world to score around. I have played golf around the world and have NEVER seen good players struggle like they do around the greens at Seminole. I love the course and would play it every day given the chance but I know my handicap would go up!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, a couple of years ago our pro went down to Seminole with Downing Gray to play in a pro-am event.  The conditions were exactly as you describe.  Downing would never say this, but our pro said the course was virtually unplayable.   Very windy, very firm, impossible to stop the ball near the hole.

And he is a very good player for a club pro.

Bill,

I suspect that the conditions were a shock to his "golf system"

I also suspect that he was from up north and thus didn't have much golf under his belt when you teed it up.

Being introduced to those conditions for the first time under tournament conditions can be more than intimidating.

But, I bet he'd adjust to them just fine with time.

Sean Arble,

Great pictures.

It sure looks like the marginal shot is doomed on that first picture.

Pat, I don't think it matters whether you are from up North or you live in North Palm Beach and play golf 7 times a week. You will never be fully adjusted to Seminoles greens that are rock hard and extremely fast unless you play there "a lot".

I don't know about that.
Pine Tree's greens are firm and fast.  I suspect that if you played alot at Pine Tree that you'd be able to adjust to Seminole in short order.  There's no question that repeat play breeds familiarity and a comfort zone.[/b]

Add the 30 mph winds off the ocean to that and it is THEE hardest short golf course in the world to score around.

There wasn't much in the way of wind last Saturday.
A mild breeze from the NNE.
While I like a good wind, 30 mph presents an unusual and exceptionallyl challenging test.
At that velocity, with fast sloped greens, the ball will not remain stationary.[/b]

I have played golf around the world and have NEVER seen good players struggle like they do around the greens at Seminole. I love the course and would play it every day given the chance but I know my handicap would go up!!!

There's something enchanting about the course.
Challenging yet enjoyable.
I think it's one of the most member friendly courses I've played, despite the difficulty around the greens.
The 18 handicap seemed to handle the course adequately as did the others in our group.

I too would love to play it every day.
No doubt that your/my handicap would go up........ initially, but, then I think they'd come back down.
Can't think of a better course to play during the winter.[/b]

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, a couple of years ago our pro went down to Seminole with Downing Gray to play in a pro-am event.  The conditions were exactly as you describe.  Downing would never say this, but our pro said the course was virtually unplayable.   Very windy, very firm, impossible to stop the ball near the hole.

And he is a very good player for a club pro.

Bill,

I suspect that the conditions were a shock to his "golf system"

I also suspect that he was from up north and thus didn't have much golf under his belt when you teed it up.

Being introduced to those conditions for the first time under tournament conditions can be more than intimidating.

But, I bet he'd adjust to them just fine with time.

Sean Arble,

Great pictures.

It sure looks like the marginal shot is doomed on that first picture.

Well actually he's our pro here at Pensacola CC and is a good old Southern boy who wouldn't know snow if he was ass deep in it.  But yes, it was a shock to his golf system.  From the way he told it, I don't think anybody was having much fun!

[Joel_Stewart]

Basically you re asking what's the fastest course someone has played?

Years ago I played the South Shore golf course at Lake Las Vegas.  It's a Nicklaus design.  The temperature was well over 100, maybe 108 and there was about a 20 mph wind.  The course was hard as a rock but green which made things confusing.  Putting was almost impossible, a 3 foot putt could roll off the green.  My guess is I three putted 10 times and our group probably 3 putted or worse 50 times in the round.  Chipping was absolutly impossible.  The member we played with must have lost 30 balls but was use to it.  It wasn't golf, wasn't any fun.

[Doug Siebert]

This is why I enjoy playing in Scotland and Ireland so much....conditions like these are the rule, not the exception.

I rarely experience this in the states.  Pretty much the only time is late fall after the first freeze when they've blown out the sprinklers but you get a few weeks of dry Indian summer weather after.  The typical windy fall plus sunshine and warm weather suck all the moisture out of the greens and they get like concrete.  Its a whole different game.  The weather only cooperates this with scenario every few years but when it does I get out every chance I can get.  The best part is that the courses are usually pretty deserted.  I guess there aren't a lot of golfers in the US who would seek out rock hard conditions on a day with 25-30 mph wind.  I love it because its like playing a whole new course - I guess everyone else hates it for the same reason!

As for not being able to repair ball marks, if you didn't bend your ball mark repair tool then either the green wasn't as hard as it could have been or you weren't tugging hard enough!  They work better once they've been bent slightly anyway

[Dean Stokes]

Doug, the last thing I want to do on a golf website is argue....however I played golf in Great Britain for 20 years and never once saw greens as hard and fast as Seminoles greens (except for in January when we were on temporary greens and the frost was down). Never. Again that is not a knock on Seminole just a fact.

I fact I would follow that up by saying I have played golf now for 30 years and have only ever putted off the green twice in my life.....both times at Seminole.....once on #11 and once on #13.

[Mike Policano]

Pat, I was fortunate to play Seminole and Pine Tree both within a week of when you played. To answer your question, i believe Ballyneal, as it was playing last August, is the fast and firm equal of both courses.  BN may take fast and firm a step further than either of them.

For example, at BN it is often difficult to tell where the fairway ends and where the green begins.  The fairways run almost as fast as the greens.   Unlike Pine Tree, you run the ball on to the green on every hole but the par 3's. And even on the 3's, you can hit short of the front and bounce it in. Also at BN, the high handicapper and the low handicapper alike can choose the ground over the aerial approach.

The course was developed and built to be fast and firm. The owners, the architect and the super did and do everything possible to make the course play fast and firm. The people who join totally buy in to fast and firm. As evidence of the culture, the motto is "Get down with Brown".

Cheers