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Patrick_Mucci

really FIRM and fast conditions ?

Not long ago Ran and I played Seminole and the greens were so firm that when I went to fix what looked like an indentation in the green, I couldn't move my medal two pronged fixer once it had penetrated into the putting surface.  No matter how much effort I expended, I couldn't move anything.  They were FIRM

Throughout the round, none of us could find ball marks from our approaches impacting the green.

On # 1 after a good drive to the center of the fairway, into a slight crossing breeze (NEN), I hit a horrible short iron into the right hand bunker with the hole cut far left.  I hit what I thought was a terrific bunker shot.  As soon as I hit it the caddy said, that's too much.  I looked at him like, "what, are you crazy, that's a great shot"
I watched as the ball landed far short of the hole and rolled, slowly and agonizingly past the hole to the downslope and then off the green into one of the tightly mowed areas.  I was shocked.  Shocked at the firmness more than the speed.  The greens were quick, but not super fast.  But, they were incredibly firm, firmer than I had ever seen.  Throughout the round, many bunker shots, chips and pitches rolled past the pin, to the perimeter and down into either bunkers or tightly mown areas.  As frustrating as each golfer found it on occassion, everyone liked the conditions and tried to more carefully plan and execute their shots.

On # 12, one fellow, short and left of the green, took his putter and aimed 20 feet left of the hole because he knew he couldn't hit an L-Wedge over the fronting bunker and stop the ball on the green.  Unfortunately, he hit his recovery putt a little too hard and it went on the green then rolled slowly into the right side bunker.  Now he was faced with a downhill, down wind recovery to a front hole location.  That resulted in him hitting his bunker shot to easy, it went up, hit the face of the bunker and rolled back into the bunker.  He repeated that process several times.  It was really a difficult shot under those conditions.

These conditions presented unusual playing dilemas.

Where to land the ball on approaches was a fairly easy decision since I could get the ball relatively high and use the wind when it was in my face.  But, with downwind shots and recoveries, the greens perplexed everyone.

On # 5, the hole was cut in the front, the hole was playing with a slight wind.
One fellow hit a high draw, probably a 7 or 8 iron.  It landed short of the hole, just onto the green.
And ended up in the back of the green a good 40+ feet away.
Now, he was putting down hill, but into the breeze, with a gaping bunker behind the hole.
Needless to say, he left the ball 6 feet short of the hole.

On # 14 I hit a good drive and tried to get my second shot into the front bunker since the hole was cut way up front.
I succeeded.
But, I made a dumb mistake.  Knowing how firm they were, with the hole cut way up front, I tried to squeeze my bunker shot so that it would land just onto the green.  I had a nice uphill lie in the bunker, I couldn't have placed it better by hand,  But, my nice high bunker shot had some spin on it, hit just onto the green, into the upslope, and slowly, agonizingly began to roll back... back off the green, down the slope and into the bunker.  So, I tried it again.  Same result.  Then, I tried it again.  Same result. Then I hit the bunker shot to land near the hole and left myself an 6 foot downhill putt that I missed.  I went from a good chance of making birdie, par at the worst, to a nice triple bogey 8.  And all because of the firmness of the green and my forgetting about the very front of the green which slopes back into the bunker.

I can't remember playing greens so firm.

Our foursome consisted of an 18 handicap, an alleged 11 handicap who tried to claim a 16, a 1 handicap and me.
So there was a broad spectrum of golfers, hitting different flighted balls, different distances.

All of us seemed to find the range for approaches, but, recoveries were brutally difficult, mentally and physically.

I noticed that most of the courses we played (only 3) had fairly firm greens, but, none of the firmness of Seminole.

So while we claim to prefer FIRM, FAST greens, should we be careful of what we wish for ?

At another course, Pine Tree, the Superintendent informed us that he had gotten his greens where he wanted them and that his mission for the coming year was to get the approaches and the rest of the golf course very firm.  The greens were fast and firm.

Neither Seminole nor Pine Tree where the Superintendent spoke to us, overseed.

That tends to produce browner conditions, with imperfect but good fairways that generate fairly tight lies.

While Ran, myself and the other fellows loved those conditions, I'm not so sure they'd be that popular with the great majority of the membership at other clubs and the golfing world at large.

Pine Tree's Superintendent told us that December's temperatures were 10.5 degrees below normal, which may have had something to do with these courses being able to get their greens firmer than in the past.

Very firm greens would seem to be fun to play, provided the size of the green is adequate.
This may be another example of where the "maintainance meld" needs to be site specific.
I can't imagine greens as firm as Seminole's on a course with smaller or tiny greens, they'd be unplayable.

What are the firmest greens you've ever played ?
What's the culture of the membership at that club ?
And, were the conditions a product of the weather or at the direction of the membership ?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
When I played Seminole last spring/summer, the greens were just as you have described.  My best shots didn't hold the greens and were often fed into the bunkers.  And trying to hold a green out of a bunker...forget about it!!  And the fairways were very fast and firms as well.

East Lake's greens are even firmer than the ones at Seminole were that day.  You can't make a ball mark.  Sky high sand wedge...no mark to fix.  3 iron for 200 plus yards...no ball mark.  It really makes holding the greens maddening.  However, East Lake has zyosia fairways...so they aren't, what I'd describe as, fast and firm.  (Also regarding East Lake's greens, this past year someone in our group did make a ball mark pretty much each and every time we played the course, 25 times or so,...and we'd all have a big laugh over it.  So, maybe the bermuda greens are softening up a bit...but they are pretty much like concrete.)

Yeamans Hall is pretty fast, but the greens are nothing like East Lake's firmness...but they are pretty quick with more undulation that East Lake.

However, I don't really think I prefer these types of greens.  Sand Hills for me was just about ideal.  I call them the perfect blend of undulation and speed...at least the few days I was there.  And Ballyneal has great greens, but I would put them in an entirely different camp than these other courses.  

I'll try to think of some more.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:14:33 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
I remember playing the Old Course in early April 2006, and the course was firm and slick... not a lot of rain in the week before and not a lot of growth from the grass...

The weight of the shot is essential in those conditions...

links golf can get really firm... and really fast, a soft but running chip is a hard thing to manage, that's why they are putting from off the greens

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Aside from the obvious retort that much links golf in very dry years is played on extremely fast and very firm courses I have played many times, as recently as last month, on frozen courses.  It doesn't get much firmer than that.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0


While Ran, myself and the other fellows loved those conditions, I'm not so sure they'd be that popular with the great majority of the membership at other clubs and the golfing world at large.



Gee,ya think?

If you want firm,come play any set of greens in the Deep South the first year after they've been re-grassed with Champion.Then,walk into the men's grill and listen to the members complain.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat Mucci -

Unless you have played a links course where the fairway grass has turned from yellow to almost white, you have no idea what F&F really is!

DT

Patrick_Mucci

JME,

There's a big distinction between new concrete greens where the ball bounces ten feet in the air after impact and greens which don't produce that high bounce that will respond to well struck balls.

That's a new construction by-product issue, not an intended maintainance issue
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:36:18 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,

It sounds like the conditions you experienced at Seminole were of the sort that would tax the most seasoned professionals at the US Open. While I do enjoy a course playing on the firm side, as it accentuates the contours of the greens and provides the opportunity to bounce approach shots into the green if desired, I wouldn't want to play in the super-firm conditions you describe on a daily basis. I can't imagine the membership at any club really enjoying these conditions routinely. I know this was not your first round at Seminole, so was your round longer than usual, due to the firm turf conditions? I feel the vast majority of golfers have a tough enough time with the game, and while I would never want to pander to the lowest common denominator, as that detracts from the essence of the game, the conditions you describe seem too exacting and difficult. Could you hold the greens from the bunkers if you were willing to concede to take three strokes to hole out?

TK

Patrick_Mucci

Tyler,

At first blush, one can understand your position.

However, the members at Seminole like those conditions.

They've adjusted to them.

So, conditions that surprise and perplex us, have become routine to them.

It's the period of adjustment that's the critical element.

If I played there for a week or regularly, I'd adapt to those conditions quite well.

The member was the 18 handicap.

He's 70 and his only issue was whether he should be playing from the white tees since he's gotten shorter over the years.

Never once did he complain about firmness or pace.

His issues revolved around distance, and I understand that.

We've gotten spoiled.

We want golf courses to present themselves to OUR advantage.
We want "fairness"

Golfers not used to those conditions go ballistic when they hit a marginal or bad shot that runs too far, then off the green and down into a bunker or tightly mown area.

Those conditions have been adapted to by the membership.
It's only outsiders who complain.

Why, because those conditions, the conditions everyone on GCA.com claims to embrace, produce a result that's unkind to us, when we're first introduced to them.

There's a "sticker shock" so to speak, upon our introduction to those conditions, conditions the members love.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
The main problem with your thesis is that most courses built within the last 30 years were not done with firm and fast conditions in mind. Of course there are exceptions such as Bandon, SH and Ballyneal but most courses were built to please most golfers which means soft, receptive greens with no provision for running the ball on to the green.  Firm fairways are a different story as most players like long drives even if it means playing from the rough.  

BTW: I had the pleasure of playing Pine Tree not too long ago and the greens were really firm and fast and absolutely ate me up.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 03:10:53 PM by Jerry Kluger »

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
I had fast and firm at Dye Course (PGA Village) and loved it!  Bump and run, one bounce and on, putt from well off the green.  Outstanding. 
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill Hyde

  • Karma: +0/-0
To me, the Seminole conditions are fair. When I have played there, I have found that there is always a shot that will work, just not necessarily the shot you want to play. The fact is, you can't go at many pins, you have to play to the spot where your ball will remain on the green and putt from there - wherever the pin might be. One day, a friend was in the right bunker on 3 in 2 with a pin on the right side...triple bogey after a par-par start. It's not what most are used to, but those conditions make you think your way around a lot more than dartboards do.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Right on, Bill.  Also, they had fast and firm at Quail Ridge...but because of new greens and greenside turf.  Again, one bounce and on was the order of the day, even for excellent amateurs.  That's hy Delray Dunes beat Quail for the Road Cup...the made the adjustment earlier.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matthew Parish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Other than Bandon and in Scotland, I can say firm and fast is largely a foriegn concept, almost impossible to find in and around Houston(or anywhere else in the South?).  For years one of the things I looked forward to was playing one of the local courses outside of town, Blaketree National, in the winter.  They might have been the last course in Houston not to do any overseeding.  Sadly, under new ownership they started doing it a couple of years ago.  The course, just north of town where we start to get some topography, has always drained well.  And if we had a couple of winter weeks without rain, you could count on the fairways and greens playing to a firmness short short of concrete.  Compared to playing in the spring and summer, it was like ai different course altogether.  Frustrating at times, but it really allowed some interesting shots to be played.  

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Back when we had a really bad drought about 7 years in Southeast PA, a couple of the muni's stopped watering and let everything go dormant.  That was a lot of fun!  We had to land everything way short, and a lot of shots ended up in trouble when we werent expecting it.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,

I understand that golfers tend to enjoy conditions that suite their game and when conditions present themselves that bring them out of the comfort zone, they complain rather than adjust their play. Our 16th green is often cited as unfair and in need of leveling. In my first year I must have 4-putted this green a handful of times, but since, I know where to miss, and understand how to play the hole through repeated play, thus no 4-putts in the past 4-5 years. The same would hold true of the conditions at Seminole, you learn how to succeed by playing a different brand of golf.

It's hard to assess the conditions you played in, with out experiencing them myself, but I didn't read any examples of great shots that were executed due to the conditions, hence my negative read on the experience. I get frustrated when seemingly good shots find trouble, but who doesn't, I understand it's part of the game and don't complain, and realize that some of my bad ones go unpunished to balance the scales.

Did your game take longer than usual? I have always found firm & fast conditions yield longer stroke-play rounds.

TK



Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat...

Maybe you are right about the vast majority of golfers being spoiled...and therefore wanting to score well, have predictability from a golf course, and "fair" treatment.

But some of the most fun I've ever had on a golf course was putting clean off #1 at Ballyneal, putting clean off #2 at Sebonack, hitting a magnificent and brilliantly placed chip from behind the green on the 12th at Ballyneal only to see it trickle, trickle, trickle right off the green and down the slope and into the fairway.  F**kin' Doak...I'll get him back one day.

I can't wait for St. Andrews, Askernish, Crail...and all these links courses I've got on the docket.  They look like fun to me.

Oh yeah, Rock Creek looks amazing...Tetherow...and quite a few others.

So, maybe others don't like crazy greens...and or fast and firm courses...maybe some people like to put up a good score.  Hey, as long as they don't cheat to post it...more power to them.  Golfs got enough variety of courses for us all to be happy.

Having said that, I'll turn it back to your original post.  I found Seminole to be an exacting test of golfing skill.  A "Big Boy" golf course if you will.  Add in some wind and you've got a real test of golfing skill.  Some people like that too.  Reference the courses World Ranking.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
When I have played there, I have found that there is always a shot that will work, just not necessarily the shot you want to play. The fact is, you can't go at many pins, you have to play to the spot where your ball will remain on the green and putt from there - wherever the pin might be.

Bill,

Those are conditions that are ideal, and really test a player. Manageable if one properly executes and doesn't take on more than he/she is capable of.

TK

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
The critical element about truly f&f conditions is it provides a chance to play a course differently from the norm or indeed is a norm of its own in the right season.  I love that a course can play so differently throughout the year and that is the true wonder of playing on bents and fescues.  Sadly, proper f&f conditions are nearly a thing of the past.  One must seek out those courses with no fairway watering in high summer to get the really rocking conditions.  Unfortunately, so many memberships have been brain washed into thinking that actually narrowing the the possibilities of course presentation is proper when it is obvious that for lean and mean to really work mother nature must be the captain with the super as a well trusted consultant. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,you just can't say that "the members at Seminole like those conditions"--period,paragraph.This implies that,at least,a majority of them do.Neither of us knows what percentage does/doesn't like the golf course maintained that way.But,there are certainly some members who don't like it.

What is likely is that a majority of those in charge of the maintenance like it that way.

Like you,I wish that clubs would ask their members to raise their game to the golf course's level rather than maintain it for the lowest common denominator.But,it ain't gonna happen.

IMO,for a club to maintain their golf course at maximum firm/fast conditions,one of two things must be present.

Either the club is run by one guy who understands or the club has a culture of many guys who understand.Absent one or the other,the slow children will eventually insist that the golf course be maintained for them.

Long to short,we agree that the club's culture is paramount to firm/fast conditions.

Patrick_Mucci

Pat,

I understand that golfers tend to enjoy conditions that suite their game and when conditions present themselves that bring them out of the comfort zone, they complain rather than adjust their play. Our 16th green is often cited as unfair and in need of leveling. In my first year I must have 4-putted this green a handful of times, but since, I know where to miss, and understand how to play the hole through repeated play, thus no 4-putts in the past 4-5 years. The same would hold true of the conditions at Seminole, you learn how to succeed by playing a different brand of golf.

It's hard to assess the conditions you played in, with out experiencing them myself, but I didn't read any examples of great shots that were executed due to the conditions, hence my negative read on the experience. I get frustrated when seemingly good shots find trouble, but who doesn't, I understand it's part of the game and don't complain, and realize that some of my bad ones go unpunished to balance the scales.

Did your game take longer than usual? I have always found firm & fast conditions yield longer stroke-play rounds.


No, it took us about 4 hours walking leisurely.




Patrick_Mucci

Mathew Parish,

I think you alluded to the key issue, overseeding.

Once you overseed, in addition to the terrible conditions that occur in and out of the six week or so transition period, you're almost forced to water, and once you do that you can kiss F&F goodbye.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
If the greens are really firm and conditions are windy, if the fairways are not maintained similarly and the course not designed for ground game options, it wouldn't really add to the fun.
I love playing in Ireland and the UK where the greens and fairways play at a similar firmness AND speed
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat - this post is from a thread I started last summer

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44972.0.html

Hazeltine is killing its fairways and greens today as a part of a project to try and eliminate Poa Annua.  Because of that effort (or because there was no need to worry about the long term condition of the course), they dried out the course significantly and had the greens stimping at 12 (according to their sign) over the weekend.  The greens were so firm that shots landing on the green would make the slightest dent and would make nothing resembling a ballmark.  Fairways were similarly firm and fast so that for one day I was a big hitter. 

On Saturday I played the course in 20 MPH gusty winds with gusts in the 30-40 MPH range.  It was an interesting experience that probably did a good job of showing how difficult Pebble played in the US Open (without the rough and with greens 2-3 times as large). 

On the first hole, I had a greenside lob wedge over a bunker to an uphill green.  I chunked it a bit and it just carried onto the green and rolled uphill 35 feet to snuggle next to the hole.  On many holes, I had short approach shots but a very difficult time making par.  One half wedge rolled to the edge of the green, bounced off the fringe, took a left turn and wound up about 12 feet from the hole.  Other shots were impossible - On 7, I had a 70 yard downwind wedge to a back pin over water.  Even with 70 feet of green to work with, I do not think I could have possibly stopped the ball on the green.  Putts were extremely challenging but generally playable.

Needless to say - scores were terrible.  My net score was 79 (86-7) from around 6600 yards and of 8 people I know that played the course that day, most of which had lower handicaps than me, I did not hear of another net score that broke 80. 

I think this experience highlights the limitations and the advantages of firm and fast approach we discuss here:

1.  The experience was different from links golf only in the sense that the course was not designed as a links and I do not think it would be possible to maintain such green speeds in links weather conditions.

2.  If a course is going to be maintained in this fashion, it needs to be designed with that in mind.  The course was no firmer than Bandon Dunes courses but the combination of green speeds, elevated greens and flanking front hazards made the course difficult, but presented challenges for which few, if any, had answers.  The greens at Hazeltine are actually better at high speeds.  The slopes generally are gentle enough that you have a chance unless you are completely out of position.

3.  I think the course would have been really playable, if the greens were at slightly more reasonable speeds.  Most of Hazeltine's holes allow some sort of run up approach. but where it did not, the experience was brutal.

4.  High handicaps struggle mightily around the greens in such a situation.  If you do not hit putts solidly you have no chance.  If you cannot control the trajectory of a simple chip or pitch around the green, you are unlikely to even get the shot on the green.   

5.  It is really fun to hit tee shots in such conditions.  My drives went farther than normal into the wind.  Downwind, I rarely had more than 120 yards on a par four, normally the hole are more than 400 yards in length.

Patrick_Mucci


Pat,you just can't say that "the members at Seminole like those conditions"--period,paragraph.

Sure I can.
[/b]

This implies that,at least,a majority of them do.
Neither of us knows what percentage does/doesn't like the golf course maintained that way.
But,there are certainly some members who don't like it.

Can you name them ?
[/b]

What is likely is that a majority of those in charge of the maintenance like it that way.

I think it's well beyond that.
Certain clubs have a unique culture.
Oakmont has theirs, PV theirs, GCGC theirs and Seminole theirs.
And Seminole's culture is F&F where permitted by Mother Nature.
[/b]

Like you,I wish that clubs would ask their members to raise their game to the golf course's level rather than maintain it for the lowest common denominator.But,it ain't gonna happen.

It might, but, it would take a combination of forces.
The USGA.
The PGA
Televised GOLF
and golfers who travel, experience these conditions and return to their home club raving about them.
[/b]

IMO,for a club to maintain their golf course at maximum firm/fast conditions,one of two things must be present.

Either the club is run by one guy who understands or the club has a culture of many guys who understand.Absent one or the other,the slow children will eventually insist that the golf course be maintained for them.

Sadly, the malcontents seem to have the most shrill voices at many clubs, and since the squeeky wheel gets the oil, all too often courses are maintained in a way that diminishes the playing experience, but looks good to certain eyes.

I wonder if everyone was color blind, would golf be played on better surfaces ?
[/b]

Long to short,we agree that the club's culture is paramount to firm/fast conditions.

Definitely.

Developing that culture is the difficult part.

If enough people play "AWAY" and experience those F&F conditions, maybe, when they return, they'll request them.
That, in conjunction with the USGA, PGA and TV just might have a favorable impact.

Walking off the 18th green, Ran and I agreed, how can you not love Seminole ?

With its wide fairways, low rough, wind, bunkers and greensites, it's just flat out fun to play.