Say you own an island in the Caribbean...

[Patrick Hodgdon]

...that doesn't have a golf course yet.

You obviously want to build the first course on the island.

Assume you have decent land with ocean views, the island is one of the most untouched by development, it takes two flights to get there from the U.S. (kinda like flying to Bandon) and you want it to attract people to come visit the island from both Europe and the U.S. Because the island is mostly untouched by development you also want it to have some eco-friendly/sustainability aspects to it.

Which golf developers are you going to call first? What's your pitch other than you can offer them some incentive of discounted land/taxes? Do you develop it along with the first 4 or 5 star resort/hotel on the island or do you keep it just golf with some cabins/etc.?

Would you need a minimum of two good courses to get people to fly there instead of one of the bigger islands? Would anyone ever consider the Caribbean a place to travel with golf as #1 on their to-do list?

[Adam Clayman]

Patrick,
 My first thought was the water.
 Where will you get the fresh water for not only the golf, but the visitors?

I'd look into desalination. Hell, you could eventually be an exporter.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick,
 My first thought was the water.
 Where will you get the fresh water for not only the golf, but the visitors?

I'd look into desalination. Hell, you could eventually be an exporter.

Thanks Adam. Sorry I forgot to add/specify... assume this is an existing island with all utilities available, tourists already coming to hike and scuba dive, and it's a day stop for a cruise line which brings in 500,000 tourists a year.

[Mike Benham]

Would anyone ever consider the Caribbean a place to travel with golf as #1 on their to-do list?

Not me ...

[George Freeman]

Would anyone ever consider the Caribbean a place to travel with golf as #1 on their to-do list?

If the golf was good enough, definitely.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Would anyone ever consider the Caribbean a place to travel with golf as #1 on their to-do list?

Not me ...

Thanks for the input Mike. If Sand Hills or Ballyneal was located there and open to the public in the $150-$200 per round range would you reconsider? For those with non-golfing wives would a Caribbean getaway be more attractive to her if you had to have golf on the schedule?

[JESII]

It could Patrick, but a major obstacle for me would be the ability to find a game.

Any thoughts on that? You're not going with just the guys from a Bandon trip...including wives, sure.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

It could Patrick, but a major obstacle for me would be the ability to find a game.

Any thoughts on that? You're not going with just the guys from a Bandon trip...including wives, sure.

Certainly that would be an obstacle. Unless it attracted every golfing husband/non-golfing wife and then you'd have plenty of guys to play with.  

Another question, would you take a trip to the Caribbean with the guys instead of Bandon if the golf was comparable?

[JESII]

I haven't been to Bandon yet (I know, blasphemy) but I would go to either. I don't mind mediocre weather for a golf trip, epsecially at a place clearly designed to accomodate those conditions.

I guess my answer is, I can't fathom a reason why your idea couldn't work so long as maximizing profit is not high on the developers list...

[Shane Wright]

Patrick,

What is the value you are going to bring with this Caribbean Island that is not already being provided or marketed at the other Caribbean islands?  That would be my main question?  

Because I don't believe that a Caribbean island with golf as its main attraction will have a strong enough demand.  I was mentally scrolling thru golf trips in my head over the next couple of decades and EVEN if Sand Hills or Ballyneal were on a Caribbean island, this island would fall somewhere in the "maybe the next 15 years" category.  

Now if there is another compelling reason to go there, with family, something unique, fun, then it becomes more of a discussion.  But for just golf, I see this as a really tough sell.  

But if you came up with something truly unique and marketable for the island, your list of contacts on GCA would be more than a good start for discussions about putting the development together.  

[jeffwarne]

Patrick,

What is the value you are going to bring with this Caribbean Island that is not already being provided or marketed at the other Caribbean islands?  That would be my main question?  

Because I don't believe that a Caribbean island with golf as its main attraction will have a strong enough demand.  I was mentally scrolling thru golf trips in my head over the next couple of decades and EVEN if Sand Hills or Ballyneal were on a Caribbean island, this island would fall somewhere in the "maybe the next 15 years" category.  

Now if there is another compelling reason to go there, with family, something unique, fun, then it becomes more of a discussion.  But for just golf, I see this as a really tough sell.  

But if you came up with something truly unique and marketable for the island, your list of contacts on GCA would be more than a good start for discussions about putting the development together.  

The compelling reason is 12 inches of snow outside and more on the way.
If the courses were as good as bandon, of course people would come.
there are FAR more good choices in the summer than there are in the winter(which is why a course like Doral packs them in)
None of this works though if you don't build a hotel
a few cottages won't work unless you charge $1000 + per round.
But it's a moot point as there no chance the courses would be as good as Bandon-but if they were just good-really good, they'd be packed as the caribean has little else to offer as far as compelling golf.

[JESII]

Might as well ask, Jeff, why is there no chance the courses could be as good as Bandon?

[Tim Martin]

You get Tom Doak and Bill Coore to co-design the golf course. You have to remember that Bandon started with only one course. Everything else will fall into place.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

You'd probably be better off running hour long eco-tours over the land to tap into the 500k tourists who come for the day.

It'd be inexpensive to set up, easy to maintain, and probably net you better than what you'd make running a golf course, and with 1/10 the aggravation.

[jeffwarne]

Might as well ask, Jeff, why is there no chance the courses could be as good as Bandon?

Jim,
I meant it as a compliment to Bandon where they have 4 of the top courses in the world.
I should've said a "low" chance.
A lot would have to go right to be the = of bandon, but frankly it would merely need to be better than Casa de Campo the courses at Cabo as it would mainly be competing for the cold weather market.
With 500,000   cruise ships passengers,perhaps they could tap that market

[Shane Wright]

[/quote]

The compelling reason is 12 inches of snow outside and more on the way.
If the courses were as good as bandon, of course people would come.
there are FAR more good choices in the summer than there are in the winter(which is why a dogtrack like Doral packs them in)
None of this works though if you don't build a hotel
a few cottages won't work unless you charge $1000 + per round.
But it's a moot point as there no chance the courses would be as good as Bandon-but if they were just good-really good, they'd be packed as the caribean has little else to offer as far as compelling golf.
[/quote]

Jeff,

Yes, I live in Minnesota and think about winter golf and where I would go A LOT.  Caribbean just doesn't do it for me because it isn't easy travel to get there and I'd rather do a quick and easy winter trip somewhere in the U.S. that I can get in and out of easily.  I'd rather save up my marriage deposits for a summer trip to a Bandon, UK, Cabot, Ballyneal/Sand Hills type spot.  

You are right that it won't work without a hotel.  But in my opinion, there needs to be something else, something really unique to warrant building the golf course or courses, hotel, and infrastructure.  I would say that a Doak and CC course at the same spot in the Caribbean would be unique.  

[JESII]

Jeff,

Thanks. I would agree, sight unseen, just on the reputation of Bandon's facility.

[Gary Slatter]

Patrick, I just resigned from a great course on a superb private island in the southern Caribbean.  We had paspallum grass which doesn't require fresh water once it is established.  I'd love to let you know the challenges any time - and there are challenges with operating golf in the Caribbean. 

email me at golfslatters@hotmail.com 

[Greg Tallman]

1. Contact TSG for your desal plant (a GCA board member could be your contact)
2. Ask said board member for a routing plan as he can provide routing services in conjunction with his desal gig
3. Condition the desal contract on design services from water compnay on design services provided by board member asking the he personally be on site 15 days of each month
4. Forget about the cruise industry as a major source of revenue - If you are in the $150 range you would need to provide to them at half that and they would in turn sell it for your rack rate plus transportation costs... that is if you can get direct to the cruise lines and not go through the local tour operators who will force your net price down even further. Sure you still get some revenue but get the rack rate number out of your head quickly when dealing with cruise tours.
5. Plan on a minimum 150 room luxury hotel with meeting space (there are companies aggressively pursuing new locations at this time). Program plenty of meeting space to accommodate moderate sized groups.
6. Clearly define the steps required to begin your second course and addiitonal accommodations (cottages and such).

Bottom line: don't expect a resort in the caribbean to have Bandon-like success built on the backs of fanatical, golf-centric guests. You need to reach the masses to make a go of it.

[Mike Benham]

Would anyone ever consider the Caribbean a place to travel with golf as #1 on their to-do list?

Not me ...

Thanks for the input Mike. If Sand Hills or Ballyneal was located there and open to the public in the $150-$200 per round range would you reconsider? For those with non-golfing wives would a Caribbean getaway be more attractive to her if you had to have golf on the schedule?

Travel from the West Coast to the Caribbean is not a piece of cake, literally a full day for the best case (San Juan), maybe more to a smaller island.  And a red eye or worse on the trip home.

That amount of travel eliminates a weekend or long-weekend jaunt, it is eliminated as a business-golf-side trip for obvious reasons and Hawaii and Mexico are too close if I really really want trade winds and warm water.

[George Pazin]

Travel from the West Coast to the Caribbean is not a piece of cake, literally a full day for the best case (San Juan), maybe more to a smaller island.  And a red eye or worse on the trip home.

That amount of travel eliminates a weekend or long-weekend jaunt, it is eliminated as a business-golf-side trip for obvious reasons and Hawaii and Mexico are too close if I really really want trade winds and warm water.

Can't you say similar things about Bandon from the East Coast?

A lot of things had to go right for Bandon to be the success that it is. But there's no real reason a Caribbean resort couldn't have a bunch of similar things go right. The hardest part would probably be finding the right person - a deep pocketed golf nut with a sharp business sense. Pretty select group. (I'm o'fer on those, so don't count on me...)

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick,

What is the value you are going to bring with this Caribbean Island that is not already being provided or marketed at the other Caribbean islands?  That would be my main question?  

Because I don't believe that a Caribbean island with golf as its main attraction will have a strong enough demand.  I was mentally scrolling thru golf trips in my head over the next couple of decades and EVEN if Sand Hills or Ballyneal were on a Caribbean island, this island would fall somewhere in the "maybe the next 15 years" category.  

Now if there is another compelling reason to go there, with family, something unique, fun, then it becomes more of a discussion.  But for just golf, I see this as a really tough sell.  

But if you came up with something truly unique and marketable for the island, your list of contacts on GCA would be more than a good start for discussions about putting the development together.  

Thanks for the responses Shane and everyone else.

Let's say the island has some of the best scuba diving in the world as well as some of the most beautiful unspoiled nature hiking trails as well. (as in if you were on a Hiking or Scuba version of GCA you'd be talking about this island and planning your dream trip there).

You comment about it maybe being in the next 15 years is insightful for sure.

Going back to one of the original questions, what developer would even be interested to talking to you? Are Keiser or Robertson even answering the phone? Who else would be on your list to call? Discovery Land? (Have they done anything without housing)? Would you pay Doak to come see it, hope he falls in love with the land, then pay him to help you sell it to a developer? If a hotel/golf combo is the way to go who's the best at it?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick, I just resigned from a great course on a superb private island in the southern Caribbean.  We had paspallum grass which doesn't require fresh water once it is established.  I'd love to let you know the challenges any time - and there are challenges with operating golf in the Caribbean. 

email me at golfslatters@hotmail.com 

I will thanks for the offer Gary.

[Mike Benham]

Can't you say similar things about Bandon from the East Coast?

Except the warm water and trade winds?


Of course, Bandon travel from the East Coast is probably worse but I am just answering his question if a resort in the Caribbean would be #1 on my golf to-do list?

And because of the travel, the answer is no ... it is perhaps the same reason why I haven't been to Long Island or other East Coast must-plays, well that and not having access ...

 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Can't you say similar things about Bandon from the East Coast?

Except the warm water and trade winds?


Of course, Bandon travel from the East Coast is probably worse but I am just answering his question if a resort in the Caribbean would be #1 on my golf to-do list?

And because of the travel, the answer is no ... it is perhaps the same reason why I haven't been to Long Island or other East Coast must-plays, well that and not having access ...

 

Mike appreciate the responses which make sense to me.

I'll make sure the "future island golf course" doesn't waste any marketing money on the west coast.