[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I think you'd have to build a resort to accomodate the golf course

Dorado Beach might be a good model to follow.

36 holes, quality golf.

The problem is, it's seasonal and it's hard to replicate conditions seen on TV every week in that climate.

[Tony Weiler]

Patrick, not sure how to answer your questions, but I think one of the most recent examples of this is the Temenos Resort in Anguilla, with a Norman Course.  I know they have struggled recently, but 5 or so years ago they wanted $275 or more to play there, and that was more than I wanted to pay. 

We travelled quite a few times to St. Maarten, and could have gotten to Anguilla relatively cheaply, but I wasn't going over to golf for that much.  So, I played St. Maarten's course once per trip, a total dog track (with some pretty good holes, actually).  But, it was golf in January/February, and like Minnesotans, nobody at home was playing.  I usually played a quick 18 and was back on the beach by 12 noon.  My wife would tolerate one round, but more than that?  Not sure.  We usually were there for the beaches, the drinks, the food, to relax, etc.  So, golf wasn't a priority (well, at least not to her!!). 

[Bill_McBride]

Anyone who is even remotely interested in operating a resort in the Caribbean should first read "Don't Stop the Carnival" by Herman Wouk.

http://www.biblio.com/herman-wouk/dont-stop-the-carnival~36205562~title

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Stop-Carnival-Herman-Wouk/dp/0316955124/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296572250&sr=1-1-spell

[Anthony Butler]

Not sure what the rates are now (probably $175-200) for Sandy Lane resort guests, but how are the courses in Barbados doing (Sandy Lane, Green Monkey). Not sure they need to be operated at a profit since the owner is stinkin' rich, but it would be a good guide to the feasibility for that level of golf on an island that already attracts plenty of winter tourists.

I think Tom Fazio did the Green Monkey course...  It's not bad (Doak 6 at best) and definitely the best of the three resort courses on the East Side of the island–which still get the trade winds that make 360 yard par 4s into the wind a driver/6 iron and 440 downwind holes a driver/sand wedge.

arb:

[Mike Benham]

My last comments on this topic:

1.)  Have plenty of cash reserves / insurance for the occasional hurricane that will disrupt your business plan

2.)  Consult with experts (see quote below) who have day to day experience in building and managing the facility in your vision.

Bottom line: don't expect a resort in the caribbean to have Bandon-like success built on the backs of fanatical, golf-centric guests. You need to reach the masses to make a go of it.

[Sam Morrow]

I will say it, if you want this project to work you need to have gambling and whores. You also need to make it dirt cheap.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think there is always room for a great golf course that someone manages to charge reasonable green fees for.
Avoid the $300 plus for rooms and then another $250 for green fees as you already limit your golfers.
Reasonable accomodations, like those at Sand Hills and Ballyneal are more than adequate, with good quality but not always fancy food with a beech nearby for the ladies..and a good practice area to attract even more winter travelers.

[Matthew Parish]

...that doesn't have a golf course yet.

Would you need a minimum of two good courses to get people to fly there instead of one of the bigger islands? Would anyone ever consider the Caribbean a place to travel with golf as #1 on their to-do list?

Absolutely.  Trying to plan a buddies trip to the Dominican.  Priority #1 - Golf.  Priority #2- Cigars.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

...that doesn't have a golf course yet.

Would you need a minimum of two good courses to get people to fly there instead of one of the bigger islands? Would anyone ever consider the Caribbean a place to travel with golf as #1 on their to-do list?

Absolutely.  Trying to plan a buddies trip to the Dominican.  Priority #1 - Golf.  Priority #2- Cigars.

Thanks for the reply Matthew. I'd be curious what went into your planning a golf trip there. Were there other destinations contending? Have you all been down there before?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

1. Contact TSG for your desal plant (a GCA board member could be your contact)
2. Ask said board member for a routing plan as he can provide routing services in conjunction with his desal gig
3. Condition the desal contract on design services from water compnay on design services provided by board member asking the he personally be on site 15 days of each month
4. Forget about the cruise industry as a major source of revenue - If you are in the $150 range you would need to provide to them at half that and they would in turn sell it for your rack rate plus transportation costs... that is if you can get direct to the cruise lines and not go through the local tour operators who will force your net price down even further. Sure you still get some revenue but get the rack rate number out of your head quickly when dealing with cruise tours.
5. Plan on a minimum 150 room luxury hotel with meeting space (there are companies aggressively pursuing new locations at this time). Program plenty of meeting space to accommodate moderate sized groups.
6. Clearly define the steps required to begin your second course and addiitonal accommodations (cottages and such).

Bottom line: don't expect a resort in the caribbean to have Bandon-like success built on the backs of fanatical, golf-centric guests. You need to reach the masses to make a go of it.

Thanks for the insight Greg. I would agree that a resort with meeting space would be key in its viability.

[Bruce Katona]

To due proper due diligence, i'd spend a great deal of time with the folks who run Lyford Key, 10 minutes from Nassau Int'l Airport.  Great site, easy access to an international airport, course is well done.  Lyford Key took time to be a successful venture.

I worked on a site adjacent to Lyford which did not happen.  Access to the grey water for irrigation from the Kalik Brewery not far fromthe site was part of the deal.  Could not get it financed.  It was a winner.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

To due proper due diligence, i'd spend a great deal of time with the folks who run Lyford Key, 10 minutes from Nassau Int'l Airport.  Great site, easy access to an international airport, course is well done.  Lyford Key took time to be a successful venture.

I worked on a site adjacent to Lyford which did not happen.  Access to the grey water for irrigation from the Kalik Brewery not far fromthe site was part of the deal.  Could not get it financed.  It was a winner.

Thanks Bruce. What would you say was the biggest contributing factor to Lyford Key's success?

[Bruce Katona]

Patrick: My bad, and no one picked up on it.  The name is Lyford Cay (pronounced key).  Lyford is a success because of:

1. Location - 15 minutes max from the airport, so you are at the club quickly, whether flying commercial or private aircraft.
2. Staying Power - the community has existed since the late '50's or early 60's and had the deep financial pockets to survive the roller coater marketplace.
3. Lyford is a community, not just a golf club. The community offers tennis, golf, a full service marina, premier dining, a post office, its own private international school, and private beach.
4. Successful people acquired homes/lots or club memberships early on.  Once a few successful people began using the facilities, they brought their friends along as guests, who had the opportunity to see and use the facilities, thus generating word-of-mouth advertising.
5. Lyford had (don't know if this is still true) separate locker and lounge facilities for men and womes. My wife went into the men's building to get a drink between 9's and was told "the womens building is right next door". She was new to golf  so it made an impression on her. Not sure if this is a + or a -.
6. Women can play the golf course.  As I recall, there was only 1 long carry over a hazard on hole 16 (?).  My wife always enjoyed her time at the club.
7. We have nothing but terrifice fond memories of the community.

Hope this helps.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick: My bad, and no one picked up on it.  The name is Lyford Cay (pronounced key).  Lyford is a success because of:

1. Location - 15 minutes max from the airport, so you are at the club quickly, whether flying commercial or private aircraft.
2. Staying Power - the community has existed since the late '50's or early 60's and had the deep financial pockets to survive the roller coater marketplace.
3. Lyford is a community, not just a golf club. The community offers tennis, golf, a full service marina, premier dining, a post office, its own private international school, and private beach.
4. Successful people acquired homes/lots or club memberships early on.  Once a few successful people began using the facilities, they brought their friends along as guests, who had the opportunity to see and use the facilities, thus generating word-of-mouth advertising.
5. Lyford had (don't know if this is still true) separate locker and lounge facilities for men and womes. My wife went into the men's building to get a drink between 9's and was told "the womens building is right next door". She was new to golf  so it made an impression on her. Not sure if this is a + or a -.
6. Women can play the golf course.  As I recall, there was only 1 long carry over a hazard on hole 16 (?).  My wife always enjoyed her time at the club.
7. We have nothing but terrifice fond memories of the community.

Hope this helps.

Indeed, thanks for taking the time to reply.

[Bruce Katona]

A pleasure.....best of luck.

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