10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List

[Niall C]

Ian

Fantastic thread as the responses testify.

I totally agree with your comments on Containment Mounding but not sure I would put it top of the list. There's a recently opened and much lauded course in this neck of the woods which has it in spades. Can't say I like it but it doesn't really effect play as the fairways are that wide the mounding rarely comes into play.

The one I would disagree on is different styles of bunkering. While I might have agreed this one a year ago I've since played Old Moray in Lossiemouth where they have ben experimenting by giving some of their bunkers the Royal County Down look. I think it adds interest and didn't jar at all, kind of like a mixture of short back and sides and a mohican.

Niall

[Ian Andrew]

I would like to sit down and discuss this list of dislikes with you in 20 years. Lets make an appointment to talk in 2030

Lester,

I'll be retired by that point - so concider yourself booked.

[Philippe Binette]

I would not call the mounds left of 8th at Augusta containment mounds... I see them more as a hazard because you are almost dead if you miss it left of the mounds to the left.

I remember Tiger great up and down in the final round in 1997, that birdie really seal the deal, was even par for the day at that point and in a miss-hit would have provided a bogey... bringing hope to other players.

I see containment mounds as mounds that starts about 5 yards off the fairway and line up each side... for some reasons I've seen a lot of those playing golf in quebec.

[Tom_Doak]

For sure, I would not call the mounds on the 8th at Augusta "containment mounds".  They are meant to be obstacles to play, not to contain either views or wayward shots.

As for my comment about Sebonack, I wasn't looking for any sympathy in my explanation -- no one needs to feel sorry for me for getting to work on a site like that.  I was just telling you why it is the way it is.  You are free not to like it, as am I.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Great list Ian, just try to stay away from those when you are building your golf courses. It will be more difficult the more you build.

BTW, sounds to me like you and I are retireing at about the same time, so we could make a foursome for this meeting with Lester, yourself, Lester, myself and we could invite wild Robert for a fourth. You and Rob would have to give the seniors a couple of shots.

[Ken Fry]

Guys, thanks for the response regarding the 8th at Augusta.  I will agree calling the mounds "containment mounds" is probably not accurate.  They are more of a hazard but my issue with them was how they create a valley style green on essentially a flat area of the golf course.

This quote from Ian's initial post and who it's from is what sparked my curiosity:  "Alister Mackenzie explained to all of us how important it was to create new features that look like existing features so that they blend back into the surroundings."

Again, I understand the purpose of the mounds but can anyone classify them as blending in with their surroundings??

Ken

[Ian Andrew]

It will be more difficult the more you build.

Very true, I already have a few things I would like back from when I first started....

Nice to see you post.

I'm looking at another Toronto get together this Winter - I hope to see you there if I can get that arranged.

[Scott Warren]

Ken Fry:

The first time I visited Augusta National, I found there were so many characteristics you have to see in person to appreciate.  One of those were the containment mounds surrounding the 8th green.  If my memory recalls, the mounds were added to some degree, removed, added again then "restored."  Can someone who is smarter than me explain why they were put in at all?

I was reading about those mounds the other day.

It was written that they were built larger than they are today, but were reduced in size by Clifford Roberts in the 1940s or 50s to make viewing easier for spectators. They have since been made larger again, the book said.

But I'd agree with others that they aren't containment mounds - just like the famous mound on 5 at Riviera - there to be encountered in the playing of the hole, not as a sideline feature to separate holes from each other or a boundary.

[Jim Johnson]

Ian, could you give us other examples of interesting/exciting finishing holes that you're familiar with?

Curious.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian, could you give us other examples of interesting/exciting finishing holes that you're familiar with?

Jim,

Once I'm done with the accountant tomorrow I'll post my 10 favourite finishes.

Ian

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

That's a pretty good list, but, I'd disagree with you on containment mounds on a site specific basis.

Containment mounds almost become necessary where there's a need to buffer visual or acoustical problems.

ie, a fairway or green might have a favorable backdrop such as woods.
At the same time the course is being built, the woods are being cleared and a home, factory or commercial enterprise is being constructed on the sight lines behind the fairway/green.

A containment mound is the perfect buffer to shield the golfers view and/or quell the noise created by the newly erected object.

Trees are often inadequate because you can't plant mature oaks or other specimens that will produce an immediate curtain.
Containment mounds produce an instant effect.

In Florida, and perhaps elsewhere, you can't bury debris beneath the ground in certain jurisdictions. thus, covering that debris with dirt and crafting a containment mound can have a dual purpose.  Getting rid of the debri and buffering visual and acoustical nuisances.

I would agree that containment mounds, for containment's sake, tend to be overdone and seem to detract from play.

Some are used to isolate the golfer on a hole by hole basis.
Some are well done, others not so good.

But, they can serve a valueable purpose and shouldn't be automatically dismissed.

[Adam Clayman]

Ken Fry, The 8th green at ANGC was the first thing restored to it's original after Cliff Robert's death.

The story goes that the membership looked for someone who remembered that green so that it could be recreated. When they found someone (I think it was Byron Nelson) who said he remembered it lke the back of his hand, they asked him to recreate it. He said he did n't do that, but Joe Finger was who he worked with and would do it. Our own Baxter Spann made the plasticine models for that green when he interned at Finger-Dye back in the day. 

To this day, I'm convinced they were integral to the work Ken Dye did at Pinon Hills. As for fitting their surrounds, at Pinon the terrain is so varied and so undulated, almost anything mound-like works. Although, there are a few mounds that block views better left seen. Even if they are the next teeing ground.

[Mike Hendren]

Well done Ian.

I'd add one:  generalizations

Bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

I like an opening par 5.

It provides an element of forgiveness.

Baltusrol, Upper and Lower both start on a par 5.
Newport starts on a par 5.
Riviera starts on a par 5.
Boca Rio starts on a par 5.

I'm sure there are a number of good courses that start with good par 5's.

When I think of the first holes at Wanamoissett, Plainfield, Winged Foot, a par 5 or short par 4 seems far more appealing.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Pat Mucci

If mounds are used to block an undesirable view and or to block noise, they are not "containment" mounds.

I believe the use of the word "containment" in this instance is to contain play, in other words, contain the golf ball.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian, could you give us other examples of interesting/exciting finishing holes that you're familiar with?

My favourites:

Capilano
Commonwealth
Hamilton
Huntingdon Valley
Jasper Park
Knollwood
Merion
Metropolitan
National Golf Links
Olympic (Lake)
Old Ashburn - sub 300 yards!
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Riviera
Royal Melbourne West
Seminole
Southerndown
Winged Foot

Most are long

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci

If mounds are used to block an undesirable view and or to block noise, they are not "containment" mounds.

I believe the use of the word "containment" in this instance is to contain play, in other words, contain the golf ball.


That's a pretty narrow definition.

But, accepting your definition for a moment, what if a road was cut right next to the golf course, would that not be an ideal spot to run a long containment mound that would both contain the golf ball and buffer the visual and acoustical intrusion.

Another example is burying debris where the containment mound flanks the hole offering a degree of "ball containment"

I don't know of many containment mounds where the sole purpose was to contain the ball.

Perhaps you can provide me with some examples of where these were introduced for that purpose only.

[Ian Andrew]

I'm sure there are a number of good courses that start with good par 5's

Pat,

Royal County Down
San Francisco
Riviera
Sunningdale (Old)
Los Angeles (North)
Shoreacres
Spyglass Hill

... to name a few


Pat,

I never say never to an opening five, but I'd prefer to avoid them.
I would rather save the fives for later.

I don't look for as many as most and I like to create a tough decision on the second shot.
So it works best to have them later in the round.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Pat Mucci

If mounds are used to block an undesirable view and or to block noise, they are not "containment" mounds.

I believe the use of the word "containment" in this instance is to contain play, in other words, contain the golf ball.


That's a pretty narrow definition.

But, accepting your definition for a moment, what if a road was cut right next to the golf course, would that not be an ideal spot to run a long containment mound that would both contain the golf ball and buffer the visual and acoustical intrusion.

Another example is burying debris where the containment mound flanks the hole offering a degree of "ball containment"

I don't know of many containment mounds where the sole purpose was to contain the ball.

Perhaps you can provide me with some examples of where these were introduced for that purpose only.

Pat

Please read my post carefully.
You have expertly disected it to suit your own means.
I will not get into a p ing contest with you on this, perhaps you should read Ians list again also.

BTW we have a few courses that fit the description of containment mounds (and others) to the extreme.

1. A Graham Cooke course near Milton, ON named Pipers Heath
2. A David Moote course near Guelph ON named Guelph Lakes

There are many more up here, and I have played many in FL that fit the description also that were not there to bury debris.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm sure there are a number of good courses that start with good par 5's

Pat,

Royal County Down
San Francisco
Riviera
Sunningdale (Old)
Los Angeles (North)
Shoreacres
Spyglass Hill

... to name a few


Pat,

I never say never to an opening five, but I'd prefer to avoid them.
I would rather save the fives for later.

I don't look for as many as most and I like to create a tough decision on the second shot.
So it works best to have them later in the round.


If one concedes that par 5's may be the most difficult holes to locate and design, does it not make sense that the architect found it easier to get rid of that problem at the outset ?

It would seem that a short par 5, as an opening hole, eases one into the round while at the same time ridding the architect of the burden of finding a suitable site for his par 5's later in the round.

Your thoughts[/b]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci

If mounds are used to block an undesirable view and or to block noise, they are not "containment" mounds.

I believe the use of the word "containment" in this instance is to contain play, in other words, contain the golf ball.


That's a pretty narrow definition.

But, accepting your definition for a moment, what if a road was cut right next to the golf course, would that not be an ideal spot to run a long containment mound that would both contain the golf ball and buffer the visual and acoustical intrusion.

Another example is burying debris where the containment mound flanks the hole offering a degree of "ball containment"

I don't know of many containment mounds where the sole purpose was to contain the ball.

Perhaps you can provide me with some examples of where these were introduced for that purpose only.

Pat

Please read my post carefully.
You have expertly disected it to suit your own means.

Not at all.
You stated that the definition of a containment mound was to contain balls, not serve as a buffer [/b]

I will not get into a p ing contest with you on this, perhaps you should read Ians list again also.

No need to.
Ian's own words, his definition is in direct conflict with your definition.
His definition of their purpose is:

It is commonly employed to create separation between holes and to supply definition to a landing area or green site.


Nowhere in his opening post does he mention that their purpose is to contain golf balls.
Perhaps you should engage in a pissing contest with him[/b]


BTW we have a few courses that fit the description of containment mounds (and others) to the extreme.

1. A Graham Cooke course near Milton, ON named Pipers Heath
2. A David Moote course near Guelph ON named Guelph Lakes

There are many more up here, and I have played many in FL that fit the description also that were not there to bury debris.

I do know some courses in Florida that used containment mounding for drainage and to provide visual and accoustical barriers.

Old Marsh comes to mind, especially the 5th and 6th holes on the left where I think an extension of Jog road is scheduled to be built.

Loxahatchee might have some as well.

What other courses in Florida have you seen them used ?

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Pat Mucci

If mounds are used to block an undesirable view and or to block noise, they are not "containment" mounds.

I believe the use of the word "containment" in this instance is to contain play, in other words, contain the golf ball.




That's a pretty narrow definition.

But, accepting your definition for a moment, what if a road was cut right next to the golf course, would that not be an ideal spot to run a long containment mound that would both contain the golf ball and buffer the visual and acoustical intrusion.

Another example is burying debris where the containment mound flanks the hole offering a degree of "ball containment"

I don't know of many containment mounds where the sole purpose was to contain the ball.

Perhaps you can provide me with some examples of where these were introduced for that purpose only.

Pat

Please read my post carefully.
You have expertly disected it to suit your own means.

Not at all.
You stated that the definition of a containment mound was to contain balls, not serve as a buffer [/b]

I will not get into a p ing contest with you on this, perhaps you should read Ians list again also.

No need to.
Ian's own words, his definition is in direct conflict with your definition.
His definition of their purpose is:

It is commonly employed to create separation between holes and to supply definition to a landing area or green site.


Nowhere in his opening post does he mention that their purpose is to contain golf balls.
Perhaps you should engage in a pissing contest with him[/b]


BTW we have a few courses that fit the description of containment mounds (and others) to the extreme.

1. A Graham Cooke course near Milton, ON named Pipers Heath
2. A David Moote course near Guelph ON named Guelph Lakes

There are many more up here, and I have played many in FL that fit the description also that were not there to bury debris.

I do know some courses in Florida that used containment mounding for drainage and to provide visual and accoustical barriers.

Old Marsh comes to mind, especially the 5th and 6th holes on the left where I think an extension of Jog road is scheduled to be built.

Loxahatchee might have some as well.

What other courses in Florida have you seen them used ?

I GIVE UP

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dick,

No need to give up because you were asked a question.

And, no need to get testy because you misread Ian's definition of the purpose of containment mounding.

Just let us know which courses in Florida you experienced containment mounding.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat
One can bury stuff without creating containment mounds.
If Ian ever builds a mound I will choke him out.
Cheers

Ian
Please expand on your tee comment.
Are you referring to the ones at Sebonack?
Cheers

[Doug Siebert]

I wonder if there is a distinction in those who like or dislike opening par 5s between those for whom they are typically or sometimes reachable and those for whom they are almost always three shotters?

If the opener is clearly a three shotter (either due to length or because its just a low percentage/high risk shot) I don't have a problem with it.  I enjoy the forgiveness, which as someone who never hits balls before teeing off I really need!  On the other hand a par 5 I'd consider reachable is annoying to me as an opener, because the odds of me putting together a solid and straight drive and then a solid and straight approach on the 1st hole are about 15% of the odds of me doing that on the 4th or later