Best 36-hole complex / USA

[JSlonis]

After reviewing some the previous posts I was surprised to see that no one had mentioned Congressional CC.  I had the chance to play there in the fall on both the Blue(US Open) and Gold courses. The Gold course recently underwent a major renovation, and featured many very good holes.  Considering the entire facility at Congressional, I would rate this club very high on the list of 36 hole complexes.

I would think that Congressional will be in the running for the US Am in the future, given the quality of both courses, and the ability to accomodate the players, and spectators all at one site.  It has seemed a trend lately, that holding the US Am is a precursor to hosting another OPEN.(Unfortunately, not to be, in Merion's case.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

Do you really think Pumpkin Ridge belongs in that company ?

Winged Foot's two layouts are pretty strong from every angle.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

First -- welcome back!

I only listed 36-hole layouts I've played that were really good. I would clearly not put Pumpikin Ridge in the same league as WF -- heck, I only give Bandon / Pac Dunes a slight edge for the top spot. What happens as you list down the top 36-hole layouts is that it becomes apparent few facilities of this type, as you know, are capable in having two solid courses -- usually you get just one superior one and the other is just a "B" course (i.e. LACC, Merion, etc.)

Pumpkin Ridge is not to be dismissed so casually although I agree that it would be a tough call for it to break in to the top 10 36-hole facilities in the USA. I'm sure fans of the Northwest layout might disagree but I'd be most interested in their comments and reasoning.

[Paul Richards]

My vote would be for Winged Foot West/ East as the
best 36-hole complex.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Appreciate your thoughts -- have you played Bandon & Pac Dunes? Do you see the East at WF being stronger / better than Pac Dunes? And if so why? Thanks ...

[SPDB]

Matt, since you seem to want to pit the courses in a seeding format - than is Bandon Dunes stronger than WF East, and Pac Dunes stronger than WF West? That seems to be the matchup that should be sought not vice versa. Better to put the best foot forward for each clubs. Does that change things at all?

All of this seems fairly irrelevant in my mind, since you should essentially comparing the facilities as a whole, and not pitting individual courses against one another.

It reminds a little of how we used to stack our squash team in order to concede matches we were bound to lose, while pitting stronger players toward the bottom of the ladder against weaker counterparts to help secure a couple of wins. It secured a respectable finish against Harvard.

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Unfortunately, haven't been to Bandon yet (not that I haven't
been invited about 100 times!).

Winged Foot West, IMHO, is one of the best courses in the
US.  Period.

Winged Foot East, is very good, yet over-rated on the lists,
also IMHO.

However, the whole experience there is just amazing.  The
Clubhouse is spectacular and, of course, the history there
is pretty special.

The total package = the best 36-hole complex in the US!

[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

You put forward a good question. Let me respond this way.

I actually believe Bandon is the more demanding course because of its length. Is it better than Pacific Dunes? Well, it all depends who you ask. I like them both because they present such a different element of golf in the manner in which the courses are layed out.

The same question has been raised by a few players I know who have played WF many times. Yes, they will say WF / West is more demanding / tougher, but they prefer WF / East because it presents playable features that the West does not.

I said this before -- reduce the two par-5's on Bandon's back nine (this follows the same script WF / West uses for the 9th and 16th holes) and you will have one strong par-70 that is easily beyond 7,000 plus yards. Couple that with the unpredictable weather and wind pattern of the Oregon coact and add just a tad more rough and you have a helluva test. When you do this to Bandon you have an "apples v. apples" comparison between the two courses. I will concede that WF / West has the more complex putting surfaces and the bunkering of the targets is well done, however, Bandon requires control of your game in sometimes the most sternest of conditions.

Pac Dunes is not as long as Bandon so I matched it up against WF / East because of comparable yardages. Pac and WF East, I believe are no more than 6,600 yards.

Again, I can see how people would opt for WF as the finest 36 / hole layout in the USA, but I would hope that people would not scoff at Bandon and Pac Dunes because of its young age and say how can such a comparison be made? To use a football analogy my father was a great fan of Johnny Unitas and said there was no better quarterback. I always argued that Joe Montana is at least his equal and maybe even better. Who is right? Clearly, you can't go wrong with either choice.

If you flipped the comparison the other way I would say WF / West has an edge over Pac Dunes, but that margin is not as great as the one Bandon would have over WF / East. I actually think when you pit Bandon v WF / West and Pac Dunes v WF / East the margins become even closer.

I have the highest respect for the 36 holes at WF. I've said before you can easily make a case that when pepared properly WF / West may be America's most demanding championship test to score on. The demands are relentless and unless you're game is A+ you will be rigorously tested. But Bandon is not just a walk in the park. When you get 20-30 mph winds hitting your face throughout the day you'd better have mega patience and fortitude to weather the storm.

I guess, in the final analysis, it's a photo finish but I said previously I'd personally opt for Bandon / Pac Dunes but if a game is available at WF I'm always ready to go.  

[SPDB1]

Matt -
Well reasoned. Perhaps we will renew this argument when I actually put in 36 out at Bandon. I too hope that no one would dismiss the pair in Oregon simply because they do not date from "the Golden Age."

Let's tak about some other ones. What do you think of Saucon Valley? Also, as a rater, did you ever play Fazio's course at The International?

sean

p.s.  - Although I don't have a card on me, I am pretty confident that WF/East tips out close to 7000. Not that anyone is obsessed with length, but does that change anything?

[Paul Turner]

I haven't played the courses at Winged Foot, but I would be SHOCKED if they are as fine as the Bandon/Pacific Dunes 36. I've played Bandon a couple of times, half of Pacific Dunes (walked the rest).  They're an 8 and a 9/10 on Doak's scale.

Blimey, America finally gets courses that have the complexity,randomness and rawness of links golf; it has just got to be superior to parkland Winged Foot, no matter how sophisticated Tillinghast's design.  

[Paul Richards]

Paul:

Sorry but WF West IS THAT GOOD !!!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I have trouble not going with Pebble/spyglass or MPCC Shore/dunes. The Pacific Bandon combo is great and TOC and New are a fine day of golf too. The great New Jersey Clubs mentioned earlier are in the same group. I like Olympic Lake/ocean as well.

[Scott_Burroughs]

John,
    The reason Pebble/Spyglass doesn't count in this thread is because it's not a 36-hole-only complex.  The Pebble Beach "complex" also consists of Links @ Spanish Bay, Old Del Monte, and Peter Hay.

[Paul Richards]

Another one that I haven't seen mentioned is Baltusrol -
the Lower and the Upper.

Not as fine as Winged Foot, but still pretty darned good.

[Matt_Ward]

Another 36-hole complex to be given some notice is in Virginia with Royal New Kent and Stonehouse / Williamsburd area. My understanding is that both courses are owned and operated by the same management group even though they are about a 30 minute drive from each other.

I've played both and really liked Royal New Kent / demanding from the "Invicta" (unconquerable) tees even though a few others I know don't like the course layout. This was my first experience with Mike Strantz and I salute his efforts with both layouts although the finishing hole on Royal New Kent seems to be out of place given what the motif of the course is about.

Does that count since the courses aren't immediately next each other?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mr. Richards,
   I agree with you..As "Triple H" of the WWF says, "It's that damn good." When one takes the drive up the curvy driveway, surrounded by trees and you see the outcropping of rocks, you know your at a place that reeks history. Winged Foot has stood the test of time becasue it's that good. The West has hosted numerous tournaments with more to come. The membership at WF are some of the best players in The Met-that's were they sharpen their game.  Bandon and Pac have only been open for 3 years. Someday this will be a much more fair comparison, but until Pac/Bandon have time on their hands, I think that it's difficult to compare. It's definatly the Best Public 36-hole complex in the USA. Others that I think that are good, but haven't been mentioned are Las Campanas-2 Nicklaus course in the desert...Cog Hill hasn't been mentioned yet, either...

[Ken_Cotner]

I don't recall seeing Pine Needles/Midpines mentioned yet.  Same ownership, across the street from each other.  2 of Ross' best; surely among the best 36-holers.

KC

[Paul Richards]

Anthony and ken:

Both Mid-Pines/ Pine Needles and Cog Hill fit the bill. However,
the thread is about the BEST.

Neither of these groups is even close to the BEST.

Mid-Pines/Pine Needles - only played Pine Needles, so can't
really comment.

Cog Hill - No. 4 is a great course.  No. 2 is pretty decent.
No. 1 and No. 3 only exist because the other two are
crowded and expensive.

[JakaB]

Paul,

In the midwest where would you rate the Orange and Blue of the U of I.

[Paul Richards]

JakaB:

Being a humble University of Illinois alum, I would have to
rate the Orange and Blue courses right up there with
Peter Jans National!

[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

I seriouly doubt you could get anywhere near 7,000 yards for WF / East. Many of the hole are already positioned from the most extreme parts of the property. The yardage I have for the course is 6,664. Unless you want to extend a few tees on someone's lawn that adjoins the property.

What could be done at WF / East is what is done at WF / West and that is change two of the par-5's on the front (likely suspects are #2 and #8) into long par-4's. That would add some bite for the better player.

But, I have to ask can a parkland layout (even one as challenging and stern as WF) stack up against well designed courses located oceanside? I can say this with certainty -- whatever wind you EVER get at WF is really just a zephyr compared to the daily array of experiences at Bandon and Pac Dunes.

No doubt the green complexes at WF are as fiercely protected as any around, but it is very possible that should you come unglued because of Mother Nature at Bandon and PacDunes when the wind "freshens a tad" you better know you will be tested to the max just to complete the round.

Again, both are such solid layouts and the difference, in my mind, between them, is no further apart than the space Alydar and Affirmed displayed in horse racing a few years back.

P.S. Gentlemen -- the thread is only about 36-hole layouts that are connected to each other (operated by the same group / ownership but the courses don't have to be immediately next to each other). I still think that Stonehouse and Royal New Kent would qualify but I can't say for sure if both are owned by the same group / person. If anyone knows please advise. Thanks ...

One last item -- anyone have strong favorites for the third spot. Looks like Baltusrol is the favorite of many although I tend to favor Olympia Fields by a nose.

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Excellent point with Olympia Fields.

The North is spectacular, especially with the recent
renovation by Mark Mungeam in preparation for the US Open.

The South has some of the best short par fours around, and
is a very, very good course.

Glad you pointed that one out!

[JLG]

While not in the same league as Winged Foot or BD/PD, I think the two courses at Grand National on the RTJ Trail are worth mentioning.  The Links Course is an excellent test of golf, and The Lakes Course has fine holes as well.  These are both on incredibly beautiful and serene land and are definitely part of the same, well done complex.  The greens fees are cheap to boot!

I'll also throw The Greenbrier out there as an honorable mention.

[WB Salinetti]

Matt,
According to your most recent posts, it is all about the location??  Parkland vs. oceanside and strong winds??  From those comments it seems to me because of the land WFGC is that much better.  Tillighast had a boring, flat piece of land to work with and he produced one of the truest tests in all of golf.  The land in Oregon was picture perfect to create a masterpiece, I have never been there but I'm sure it is great.  But WFGC is truly the greatest 36 hole complex in the US.  Maybe in 75 years we can continue this conversation to see if Bandon/Pacific has stood the test of time like WFGC.
  
ps.  The East was stretched a few hundred yards for the Shell thing they had with Leonard/Love in 98.

[Matt_Ward]

WB Salinetti:

Appreciate your take on the situation.

Quick question -- have you played Bandon & Pac Dunes? Plenty of people who are fans of WF (some on this thread)have not had that opportunity and it truly amazes me that people can say one 36-hole facility is better than another without having played them both.

I think location does matter and I say that with the highest of respect for WF. I've made strong comments in defense of WF many times -- starting with its superior green complexes from a contouring standpoint and from the strength in which the greens are protected by the numerous deep flanking bunkers.

What you don't realize is that I'd like to see Bandon play as a par-70 (two par-5's on the back change to long par-4's) just as WF / West does with the 9th and 16th holes as long par-4's. When you get an apples to apples comparison the gap between those two respective courses is not that far apart although clearly the West still has the edge. I just think that WF / East is a tad overrated and that Pac Dunes comfortably outdistances it. Again, just my opinion.

But, keep in mind, Pac Dunes also possesses solid green contours and although the putting surfaces may be a bit open in front (to give you some option when dealing with wind) you still must be able to completely control ball flight throughout the round. And, Bandon, from the tips, is not just an easy stroll. In fact, I don't think there are two more demanding holes in a row when the wind is in your face than the 5th and 6th at Bandon. Even with no wind or downwind you have your work cut out for you.

When you're out at Bandon and Pac Dunes and the steady wind blows off the coast you are completely tested -- both mentally and physically. If you check the ratings of most publications the gap between the two 36-hole complexes is very close. My preference for Bandon / Pac Dunes is partially based on location (the scenery is hard to beat) and the different manner by which conditions can change and effect play.

You say you must wait 75 years to even begin this type of conversation. That's fine since that's your opinion. I don't believe one has to defer that amount of time because something is new and it must therefore "prove" itself. Bandon and Pac Dunes are courses that have earned the high praise they get. I guess many people, you might be one of them, believe all the hype about these two is just coming from certain quarters. From my travels I see Bandon and Pac Dunes as the real mccoy.

I've said this before WF / West is one of the most relentless courses you can play -- especially at the championship level where it has been proven over and over. I don't doubt that one bit. But, if I had to make a call, I'd take Bandon & Pac Dunes -- the difference between them is no wider than the gap between Affirmed and Alydar.

Hope this helps ...