[Ben Lovett]

And the buggy bar is free

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

Not to sound like a curmudgeon, 'cause I'm not. But, in my view, sometimes it's what they don't do for you at a private club. Personally, I most often like to show up at my own pace. Take my own bag from the car. Not be hassled about a shoe-shine in the locker room. Tee off when I feel like it. To me, this is much more comfortable - and private club-like - than dealing with the kids who take your bag, then the guy in the proshop, then the starter, and so on.

Jeff,

Without those services or control points, at a busy club, chaos would reign.

You may want to tee off when you feel like it, but, so do others, and that's where the conflict begins and that's where a starter is required.

ie.  You and two out of the three of your playing partners arrive at 9:00am and want to play.
      Your 4th is late.

Another group arrives 3 minutes after you and they want to play.

Your 4th arrives 5 minutes after them.

You claim that you were here first and therefore have the tee.

Result: Dispute

A starter would solve all of that.

And, if you're a first time guest, do you want to wander around, aimlessly, or do you want the staff to guide you to the  appropriate areas ?

And, the fellow who works in the locker room, who relies on tips to supplement his income, why do you want to short change him ?

And, who's going to stop you if you're driving by and decide that you want to play that course.
Who's going to stop you from taking items from the lockers ?
Where's the quality control, security and safety factor if there are no check points ?

My experience with private clubs is that they're run pretty well and that those check points are a necessity.

[Joe Sponcia]

I wish golf lessons were priced like tennis lessons though.

What are you suggesting?  I can't quite figure out why tennis pros give lessons at what must be a 10 to 1 ratio compared to golf.

John,

I guess that Golf Lessons were in the same stratosphere price-wise as Tennis Lessons.  I pay $150 per month for my son to go a group class twice per week.  Each class is 55 minutes.  That price would get me about a lesson and a half of my Golf Pro's time even though we probably pay him 30-40% more than our tennis pro.  Now, I understand that few pay $500+ per month to join a tennis club with a golf course attached to it, but we could grow the game quite easily if the Golf Pros maintained the same schedule as the Tennis Pro's at any club USA.  I understand group lessons are more affordable than are individual lessons, but to your point, Tennis Pros seem to give more lessons in my experience. 

[Chris Kane]

My experience with private clubs is that they're run pretty well and that those check points are a necessity.[/color]

Patrick, that may be your experience, but you need to experience Australian golf, where the best clubs have none of those checkpoints and run beautifully. I don't recall any of those checkpoints at British clubs either.

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat why wouldn't a private club pay their staff a proper wage and ban tipping?

And Chris is perfectly correct, there are no door men, locker guys and starters at many of the world's best clubs and everything works well and (unsurprisingly) at a fraction of the cost of many a U.S. club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat why wouldn't a private club pay their staff a proper wage and ban tipping?

Some do.

Some locker staff prefer tipping versus basic wages

And Chris is perfectly correct, there are no door men, locker guys and starters at many of the world's best clubs and everything works well and (unsurprisingly) at a fraction of the cost of many a U.S. club.

Really ?

Then that must have changed since my last visit to Scotland where every course I played had a starter.

Remind me, how many of those "world's best clubs" have swimming pools, tennis courts, paddle courts, on site practice ranges and short game areas, teaching centers and full dinning, breakfast, lunch & dinner, every day ?   Maybe that has something to do with cost, no ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

My experience with private clubs is that they're run pretty well and that those check points are a necessity.[/color]

Patrick, that may be your experience, but you need to experience Australian golf, where the best clubs have none of those checkpoints and run beautifully. I don't recall any of those checkpoints at British clubs either.

Chris,

So anyone can just walk in, carry their own bag and tee off at their leisure ?

Do you belong to a private club in Australia ?

[Daryl David]

Pat why wouldn't a private club pay their staff a proper wage and ban tipping?

Not sure I understand the term proper wage?  I had always assumed the wages were set by the market.  If too low, employees quit.  If too high, the club goes under.  If the market predominately uses tips to balance the scale, then most clubs will follow and that is fine. 

As for banning tipping and just upping the wage, I have been involved in a few clubs that tried that route and both employees and members rebelled.  Like it or not, employees like to know what members think of them and members want employees to know how they evaluate their service.  While I would personally favor the no tipping system I also realize I am in the minority in the US.  Most Americans prefer instant feedback from both giver and receiver. 

[Brent Hutto]

I recently left the club where I'd been a member since 2005 and joined a different club. My reason was primarily to lower the cost of my golf, I'll make no excuses otherwise.

One thing that goes along with the change is that my new club runs a heck of a lot leaner staff-wise (and every other-wise) than my old club. Jeff and others have mentioned feeling exactly as I do...the fewer club staff I encounter between pulling into the parking lot and hitting my first tee shot, the better. Having minimal staff certainly puts the club on a more favorable financial basis but aside from that it is simply a better experience day in and day out in my opinion.

Contrary to Pat Mucci's assertions, our club has existed comfortably for many decades without tee times. And as far as I know, none of the members there feel they are missing out on "control points" or "starters" or any of those other "services". It's not chaos (as far as I've ever seen) but it does depend on long-standing norms of courtesy, consideration and what I guess I'd just call "the way we do things here". All under the responsibility of the members, not an army of underpaid servants and gofers.

One morning recently I arrived at the club which was somewhat "chaotic" due to a lengthy freeze delay that morning. Quite a few groups had been backed up when the course finally opened and I am quite confident they got sorted out with no "dispute" at all. I got there about 90 minutes later and before I could even walk from the parking lot to the clubhouse to sign in at the proshop a threesome of guys I don't even know called out to me from the first tee. They had just teed off and noticed me arriving so one of them said "Why don't you come on and join us, it's kind of crowded out there". Turns out they were making the turn having played the back nine first so I played with them on their back, my front, then finished the round solo.

It's a social norm at my club to make sure everyone finds a way to get out in a reasonable amount of time. I know hundreds of other clubs have a social norm of being waited on hand and foot by "locker room staff" and whatnot. I'm glad they can afford to hire all the staff they like. I'll take the lunatics running the asylum every time, myself.

[Sean_A]

Check points? Interesting concept, but unless guys are not bringing their sticks to the first tee, I don't much see the point in a meet and greet of a bag boy, cart boy, caddie, pro and starter.  Starter?  Fine, I can see where that may be helpful, but I don't see why the pro can't do that.  When checking in the pro says you are behind Mr Numbnutz...job sorted.  Mind you, the old chute system works well.  Ball doesn't go in the chute until all the players are on the tee....it works.  On the other hand, if guys wanna pay extra to find the 1st tee, thats okay too...its their money. 

About the best service I ever hope for is friendly, happy people...don't need much more than that to have a good day. 

Ciao

[Doug Siebert]

I wish golf lessons were priced like tennis lessons though.

What are you suggesting?  I can't quite figure out why tennis pros give lessons at what must be a 10 to 1 ratio compared to golf.

How much do tennis pros get paid versus golf pros?  The less you make, the more lessons you have to give to make a decent living.

[Chris Kane]

So anyone can just walk in, carry their own bag and tee off at their leisure ?

No, all clubs I've played at require golfers to report to the pro shop before play.

]Do you belong to a private club in Australia ?[/color]

Yes, of course.

[Carl Johnson]

I wish golf lessons were priced like tennis lessons though.

What are you suggesting?  I can't quite figure out why tennis pros give lessons at what must be a 10 to 1 ratio compared to golf.

How much do tennis pros get paid versus golf pros?  The less you make, the more lessons you have to give to make a decent living.

In my city there's a club with strong golf and tennis programs (not my club, which has no tennis).  On the last 990 (Schedule J, Part II) available (2012), the golf pro had a base of approx. $134,000, and the "Tennis Director" $106,000.  "Other reportable comp" for the golf pro was $13,000 and for the tennis pro $71,000.  Their benefits and bonuses were about equal.  Total: Golf Pro $172,000 and Tennis Director $198,000.

Another local club's 990 (for 2013) shows the golf pro at $226,000 +$20K bonus and grand total (including benefits) of $260K, with the tennis director at $140K and a $10K bonus, for a total (including benefits) of $156K.  In the case of the first club, I'd assumed the "other comp" was for lessons, but in the case of the second club there is nothing under the "other reportable comp" column for either person.  Do they get paid for lessons as independent contractors directly by the members, so the lesson comp isn't on the 990?

I have no idea what these numbers mean, but you can look them up!

[Adam Warren]

I guess when I went into the golf business I was at the wrong club.  Jesus.  A golf pro making 200k a year? Yikes.  Thats a quarter of a lot of clubs in my area's revenues or expenses.  Actually, the salaried employees at most clubs in my area probably don't add up to that. 

[SL_Solow]

As this thread has evolved, it reinforces my view that as in most areas,  when considering services offered by clubs, one size does not fit all.  Each club has to evaluate its culture, where it stands in its community and judge accordingly.  I spent Saturday at  a club leadership conference where I moderated a panel on maintenance issues on the golf course but I had a chance to discuss general issues with representatives from over 40 clubs in our area.  Some are strong, some are weak and all of them are trying to find an approach that works.  There are numerous approaches, none of which work for all of the clubs.

I can speak best to the issues raised by referencing our club.  We are a full service family club with a Colt and Allison course on over 150 acres, a relatively modest clubhouse, pool, tennis, paddle tennis, small practice ground and a short game area.  Lunch and dinner 6 days a week in season.  We are not inexpensive but there are clubs that cost more in our area.

We have opted to split the difference between the no frills approach and the maximum service model.  About 18 years ago we went to a "no tipping" policy.  There were 2 reasons.  First, members were uncomfortable with certain other members propensity to over tip, probably in an effort to buy favorable service, better caddies and the like.  While there may be some violations, this rule is almost universally observed.  The second, and better reason, was that by eliminating tipping, it insured that our guests would never feel obliged to "reach into their pockets".  Our rule is that guest money doesn't work; that is why they are guests.

Our parking lot is small so valet parking is mandatory.  With that comes help in putting one's bag in a simple rack to be picked up and brought to the first tee.  Our caddy master acts as a starter on weekend mornings which coordinates with caddy assignments  We have tee times with 2 per hour left open until the day of; nobody has a problem finding a game because our membership is reasonable in size.

We have a significant portion of our staff that has been with us for more than 10 years; we just retired a waitress after 47 years and our greenkeeper emeritus retired after 48 years.  We strive for the family atmosphere suggested by others. 

But please understand, I do not use our club as a model, it is our model which we evaluate on a regular basis.  Clubs are organic institutions which are responsible to their members and which must react to societal and economic changes.  Personally, I don't think they should react too quickly, otherwise they lose their identity by chasing every trend that comes along.  But there is little doubt that the clubs that were built on a model based on society in the 1950's and 1960's are facing a different pattern of usage.  The economic downturn late in the last decade increased the pressure on clubs.  Changing demographics in certain geographic areas create new challenges.  There is much more to consider and each club needs to evaluate its niche and try to provide the type and level of service that allows it to survive and with luck thrive.  Each of us has his own preference and given some effort, we are likely to find a place that allows us to afford this game at a place that reflects those preferences.  None of us should be foolish enough to believe that what works for one of us should serve as the model for everyone.

[Mark Pritchett]

Mr. Solow,

Great post as usual.  I hope members of this forum will read said post and then reread your last sentence.

Thanks!

Mark

[Joe Sponcia]

As this thread has evolved, it reinforces my view that as in most areas,  when considering services offered by clubs, one size does not fit all.  Each club has to evaluate its culture, where it stands in its community and judge accordingly.  I spent Saturday at  a club leadership conference where I moderated a panel on maintenance issues on the golf course but I had a chance to discuss general issues with representatives from over 40 clubs in our area.  Some are strong, some are weak and all of them are trying to find an approach that works.  There are numerous approaches, none of which work for all of the clubs.

I can speak best to the issues raised by referencing our club.  We are a full service family club with a Colt and Allison course on over 150 acres, a relatively modest clubhouse, pool, tennis, paddle tennis, small practice ground and a short game area.  Lunch and dinner 6 days a week in season.  We are not inexpensive but there are clubs that cost more in our area.

We have opted to split the difference between the no frills approach and the maximum service model.  About 18 years ago we went to a "no tipping" policy.  There were 2 reasons.  First, members were uncomfortable with certain other members propensity to over tip, probably in an effort to buy favorable service, better caddies and the like.  While there may be some violations, this rule is almost universally observed.  The second, and better reason, was that by eliminating tipping, it insured that our guests would never feel obliged to "reach into their pockets".  Our rule is that guest money doesn't work; that is why they are guests.

Our parking lot is small so valet parking is mandatory.  With that comes help in putting one's bag in a simple rack to be picked up and brought to the first tee.  Our caddy master acts as a starter on weekend mornings which coordinates with caddy assignments  We have tee times with 2 per hour left open until the day of; nobody has a problem finding a game because our membership is reasonable in size.

We have a significant portion of our staff that has been with us for more than 10 years; we just retired a waitress after 47 years and our greenkeeper emeritus retired after 48 years.  We strive for the family atmosphere suggested by others. 

But please understand, I do not use our club as a model, it is our model which we evaluate on a regular basis.  Clubs are organic institutions which are responsible to their members and which must react to societal and economic changes.  Personally, I don't think they should react too quickly, otherwise they lose their identity by chasing every trend that comes along.  But there is little doubt that the clubs that were built on a model based on society in the 1950's and 1960's are facing a different pattern of usage.  The economic downturn late in the last decade increased the pressure on clubs.  Changing demographics in certain geographic areas create new challenges.  There is much more to consider and each club needs to evaluate its niche and try to provide the type and level of service that allows it to survive and with luck thrive.  Each of us has his own preference and given some effort, we are likely to find a place that allows us to afford this game at a place that reflects those preferences.  None of us should be foolish enough to believe that what works for one of us should serve as the model for everyone.

Mr. Solow,

I love the sound of your club.  And it all makes sense.  Especially love the open tee time slots on for guys that get a late second pass.  Having someone help you with your bag - God forbid.  Ditto for lunch/dinner 6 days per week.  If you read the industry magazines you would believe everyone should build a mini-resort pool for 400-700 members that is only open 3 months per year?  It would also have you believe an extravagant gym was the reason mom approves the membership for dad.  Advertisers don't make money without renovations though do they?  The trends, as you have described, are just that depending on the area. 

Country clubs seem to get a bad rap unless you get an invitation to play for a day.  I for one have never seen a scoffer of the club environment avoid peeking into the clubhouse, skipping the club grill(e) room or main dining room in favor of applebee's, or electing to take a shower at home over the high-flow showers if time permitted.

Caddies would be an extravagance for me on a regular basis, but everything else felt right.  Thank you for taking the time to post this.

[Tim Gavrich]

Since this thread has turned toward the economics of private clubs, I'd be curious to hear about some of y'all's clubs' attitudes toward junior/"young executive" membership. Certainly only interested in generalities, because like Mr Solow says, there are all kinds.

I'm mostly interested in how/whether clubs' attitudes toward recruitment of younger members (in their 20s and 30s, particularly) has evolved over the past decade. I'm 25 now and hoping I'll be able to join a club before I'm 30. In what informal research I've done, it seems there is a huge range of attitudes clubs have towards prospective members my age.

Does it seem that older members of clubs are generally pretty willing to support younger members by allowing those younger members to pay significantly less in initiation and dues, or is the attitude more that they should have to pay up essentially as much as the longer-tenured folks? Has this attitude changed in the last decade or so?

[Mike_Young]

Tim,
Your generation is forcing the private club model to change.  One of the biggest issues will be the mobility of your genration and how long they remain in one place with a particular job.  Not knowing of one will spend his entire working life in one town will have a huge impact on initiation fees.  Your generation will not pay the large initiation fees unless they know they will be there for a long time.  It's going to become interesting...

[Mark Chaplin]

My problem with tipping is members should be treated equally and big tippers will always be looked after better by staff, it's human nature.

Pat I'm sure many courses on the "Perry route" have shepherds to keep the sheep going in the right direction. As for paddle courts, tennis, paddling pools, etc where were they hiding at CPC, PV, National Golf Links, Shinnecock Hills or Chicago Golf Club? Come to think of it I only recall a starter at one of them and security at another.

[John Kavanaugh]

My problem with tipping is members should be treated equally and big tippers will always be looked after better by staff, it's human nature.

Yes but if you are a naturally born asshole tipping is the best way to level the playing field.  It will always be the people who respect the other people at the club as friends and colleagues who get the best treatment. The money evens out.

[archie_struthers]

Atlantic City C C in the day had a barber shop , great locker room attendants , and five or ten bookies lol. 

Also a small "hotel". (The annex) for disenfranchised members to live for short periods of time. 

[Joe Sponcia]

Tim,
Your generation is forcing the private club model to change.  One of the biggest issues will be the mobility of your genration and how long they remain in one place with a particular job.  Not knowing of one will spend his entire working life in one town will have a huge impact on initiation fees.  Your generation will not pay the large initiation fees unless they know they will be there for a long time.  It's going to become interesting...

Mike,

To further your point, building a resort-style pool area, a sports bar for less than 10% of the membership, and relaxing dress rules for folks that are joining based on cost per round is a death sentence.  Charging $250/mo for a guy that plays four days a week, when you can charge double, set a pot of coffee in the pro shop and not have to go in debt is the way clubs outside of the top 200 have survived.

[BCowan]

Tim,
Your generation is forcing the private club model to change.  One of the biggest issues will be the mobility of your genration and how long they remain in one place with a particular job.  Not knowing of one will spend his entire working life in one town will have a huge impact on initiation fees.  Your generation will not pay the large initiation fees unless they know they will be there for a long time.  It's going to become interesting...

Mike,

To further your point, building a resort-style pool area, a sports bar for less than 10% of the membership, and relaxing dress rules for folks that are joining based on cost per round is a death sentence.  Charging $250/mo for a guy that plays four days a week, when you can charge double, set a pot of coffee in the pro shop and not have to go in debt is the way clubs outside of the top 200 have survived.

    What is a resort style pool area?  A sports bar or a mens back bar is very profitable year round part of most clubs.  Relaxing dress rules have nothing to do with this.  How much activity is used in the dinning hall year round?  $250 a month clubs do exceptional.  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

Mike,

   Thanks for you post.  Your outlook is spot on.  It is a very important issue.  I have many friends throughout the country that are there for a short time and looking for private golf, but initiation is a deal breaker.  Ala the answer for them is retail golf.  nothing to see here, move along.  Lets put on our blazers and cry too many golf courses and pray for attrition. 

[Mark Pritchett]

Tim,
Your generation is forcing the private club model to change.  One of the biggest issues will be the mobility of your genration and how long they remain in one place with a particular job.  Not knowing of one will spend his entire working life in one town will have a huge impact on initiation fees.  Your generation will not pay the large initiation fees unless they know they will be there for a long time.  It's going to become interesting...

Mike,

To further your point, building a resort-style pool area, a sports bar for less than 10% of the membership, and relaxing dress rules for folks that are joining based on cost per round is a death sentence.  Charging $250/mo for a guy that plays four days a week, when you can charge double, set a pot of coffee in the pro shop and not have to go in debt is the way clubs outside of the top 200 have survived.

    What is a resort style pool area?  A sports bar or a mens back bar is very profitable year round part of most clubs.  Relaxing dress rules have nothing to do with this.  How much activity is used in the dinning hall year round?  $250 a month clubs do exceptional.  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

Mike,

   Thanks for you post.  Your outlook is spot on.  It is a very important issue.  I have many friends throughout the country that are there for a short time and looking for private golf, but initiation is a deal breaker.  Ala the answer for them is retail golf.  nothing to see here, move along.  Lets put on our blazers and cry too many golf courses and pray for attrition. 

  Do you have any courses or numbers to back these statements up? 

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