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David_Elvins

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Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2011, 05:47:43 AM »
V Kmetz,

Wow, what a post, I really enjoyed reading your views.  Thank you for taking the time to write all of that so well. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2011, 05:50:31 AM »
VK,

Your unique insight provides a unique service.......I tips me hat to you.
Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Mark_F

Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2011, 06:48:22 AM »
I also have had profound relationships with the high-income staff (managers, pros, supers, maitre' ds, chefs and all their administrative underlings).

Chefs are high-income staff???

WHERE?

Cory Lewis

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Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2011, 07:02:16 AM »
If you want your pro to be willing to get out from behind the counter and be a genial glad-hand as well, then alleviate his anxiety and support his shop, don't buy clubs from discount places an the internet without supporting him too.  He doesn't like having a $198.00 cost driver with a limited seasonal shelf life in his inventory just as much as you don't like paying $369.00 retail for it, but it is required he have it at hand for you.  Don't demo clubs over and over again, take them with you on weekends off campus, whether you end up buying it or not...in either case you could be preventing a sale to another customer and he works in a closed market.

Mr. Kmetz,

Thank you for posting this.  I don't think enough people understand this part of the pro's job.  There is nothing more frustrating as a pro then to see one of your members demo a club 10 times and then go buy it from the local retail store or have them become irate when you tell them they can't buy the demo at a reduced price.
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Mike Sweeney

Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #104 on: January 30, 2011, 08:59:27 AM »

A.  Once you calculate the gross expense of joining and remaining at a particular club with a particular idea of its utility with whatever research or opportunity is at hand AND YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT MONEY AND THROW IT INTO THE FIREPLACE WITHOUT SHEDDING EVEN ONE ANXIOUS TEAR, YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE.

     A1. The first and most important reason is the rather unremarkable truth that membership in a private club is the zenith of personal luxury, about two to three steps removed from a private plane and over time, about on par with a six-figure piece of jewelry.  You like a muffin buffet and a free flowing Niagra of coffee?  You like the ice towels? You like the amenities? You must pay a luxurious price to keep that going because other human beings are providing it and gas, tolls, food, oil, internet and basic open marketplace services cost the same for that human as you.


I think you are a little off base here. I don't know the exact numbers but Southampton Golf Club and Sebonack GC sit relatively next to each other. I would guess that the members complain equally at both, and their price points are significantly different. With a restored Raynor course and a new Nicklaus/Doak course, one can argue that the 10 round split difference between the two would max out at 7 plays for one and 3 plays for the other. Yes Sebonack has a real estate time share like component to it that is hard to value, but only one has a "true" waiting list. The difference is simple, it was the cost of the land.

To think that there are enough people around who can burn money is obviously not correct. Look at how many NY area clubs are part of Tour GCX and The Outpost Club now. How many are looking for members. How many are looking for "other" options aka Donald Trump as a savior.

I think you may be too close to the "country club" conversations. If you were in the room when the accountants are speaking to the same people, you would see a different story.

While I am somewhat in the "between" generations age, country clubs probably need to figure out the next generation who are profiled today in the NY Times:

Black? White? Asian? More Young Americans Choose All of the Above

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/us/30mixed.html?src=ISMR_AP_LI_MST_FB

For me, I am perfectly happy picking up a Starbucks before my round at Yale, as it is right at the exit and I doubt they could make a cup of coffee any better at Yale. If I could get Jim Kennedy to make a Pot of Chilly at Hotchkiss, I might have perfect nirvana in Connecticut (when the snow melts!).

Cheers.

Tim Martin

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Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #105 on: January 30, 2011, 10:26:38 AM »

A.  Once you calculate the gross expense of joining and remaining at a particular club with a particular idea of its utility with whatever research or opportunity is at hand AND YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT MONEY AND THROW IT INTO THE FIREPLACE WITHOUT SHEDDING EVEN ONE ANXIOUS TEAR, YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE.

     A1. The first and most important reason is the rather unremarkable truth that membership in a private club is the zenith of personal luxury, about two to three steps removed from a private plane and over time, about on par with a six-figure piece of jewelry.  You like a muffin buffet and a free flowing Niagra of coffee?  You like the ice towels? You like the amenities? You must pay a luxurious price to keep that going because other human beings are providing it and gas, tolls, food, oil, internet and basic open marketplace services cost the same for that human as you.



I think you are a little off base here. I don't know the exact numbers but Southampton Golf Club and Sebonack GC sit relatively next to each other. I would guess that the members complain equally at both, and their price points are significantly different. With a restored Raynor course and a new Nicklaus/Doak course, one can argue that the 10 round split difference between the two would max out at 7 plays for one and 3 plays for the other. Yes Sebonack has a real estate time share like component to it that is hard to value, but only one has a "true" waiting list. The difference is simple, it was the cost of the land.

To think that there are enough people around who can burn money is obviously not correct. Look at how many NY area clubs are part of Tour GCX and The Outpost Club now. How many are looking for members. How many are looking for "other" options aka Donald Trump as a savior.

I think you may be too close to the "country club" conversations. If you were in the room when the accountants are speaking to the same people, you would see a different story.

While I am somewhat in the "between" generations age, country clubs probably need to figure out the next generation who are profiled today in the NY Times:

Black? White? Asian? More Young Americans Choose All of the Above

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/us/30mixed.html?src=ISMR_AP_LI_MST_FB

For me, I am perfectly happy picking up a Starbucks before my round at Yale, as it is right at the exit and I doubt they could make a cup of coffee any better at Yale. If I could get Jim Kennedy to make a Pot of Chilly at Hotchkiss, I might have perfect nirvana in Connecticut (when the snow melts!).

Cheers.

Mike-Although I see the point you are trying to make there are still plenty of people around with money to burn albeit not as many as before the financial crisis took root. When people join clubs that offer the types of amenities referenced then the associated costs come with the territory. Anyone that is shocked to see an itemized charge in their monthly statement did not do their due diligence when vetting said club.

V. Kmetz

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Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #106 on: January 30, 2011, 03:28:58 PM »
All Responders:

Thank you for reading that long-ass post and it is buoying to hear that my thoughts have traction with a part of this community.  Because, selfishly, that is all I'm interested in; Golf and GCA to be stewarded well and moved away from the "disposable" leisure that all entertainments are becoming.  THAT has a greater chance to halt things in our universe - because one day, another economic climate may come along and people will REALLY wake up to the notion that, "Holy shit, even though I make $260K a year, I can't afford to dump 15% of that into a golf club...I've got to fill up my oil tank, repave the driveway, save for kids' college, devote time to my elderly parents AND walk around" They'll think of it then like quitting smoking..."God the money I save"  unfortunately, they should be thinking that now and go for small quality on a tight, well-proven staff, minimal on extraneous services.  The recession was a tremor and some clubs are licking those wounds and/or finding out the real impact to the membership.  

Mark F. -  I included Chefs as a category of "high income" on two basis: a) they are usually #4 in the club structure of pay, b) I have never heard a figure lower than $70,000 for a returning chef in this area, and I know two who are in six figures right now.  This does not mean that you are incorrect to express alarm at my category - it was just contextual.  

Mike S. - Mike with all respect, it is not too much club talk...many of the actors on all sides of the fence I'm encompassing are good, nearly lifelong friends and we know what people make, what they say they make, and how much they pay to belong to a club.  You do highlight an interesting, uncovered feature of the climate, the individual average club member, in consultation with his accountant...

A.  First i would say that the accountant IS the guy who gets it economically (this is a luxury!) but doesn't get it contextually and when you see some 200-400K CPA with a shingle and a private club membership, I'll show you a guy who doesn't have a nickel more spent than his dining minimum, and knows to the penny how much of his treasury each day at the club costs.  A guy like that shouldn't belong to a private club like most of the 300 in the Met Area.

B.  But you were referring to his client so...one untold feature of these Westchester-Fairfield-NJ-LI of clubs is the disparate incomes INSIDE the CLUB itself, any club.   My last employer club had a fairly standard (there isn't such a thing but generally)kind of economic demographic, with 10% of the membership in the eight figure annum area, 20% in the seven figure area, 30% in the high sixes, 40% in the lower and mid sixes, which included the retired and standard medicine or law professionals.

B1. Further complicating this dynamic, you had 33% of the club who got in when initiation and dues were peanuts (on a gross basis) 33% who got in and don't think one way or the other about the relativity and 33% who got in in the last ten years who paid up to 3000% more than some fellow members.  No matter which income bracket you came from, it pisses you off that you paid $125K to get into this place and the guy who paid $5K is also voting to take away the car wash and the ice towels, as expenses are too high.  It makes you madder still to know that initiation was only $85K just three years ago, and they raised them so steeply in the halcyon 02-07 days to draw capital from the newly-minted to pay for the new tee boxes, green restorations and oil furnace.

B2. This creates an economically-sensitive environment that destroys the good and just sense of luxury with which, I think, most should approach this aspect of life and recreation.  The worst thing that happens is that no matter what you got in for, what you earn, what you paid, how you tip, what you can honestly devote to a luxurious commodity...now there is a two level class war going on - and something like tip money or a reduction in services or an increase in services or devotion of services is not treated as an insignificant gas of luxurious largesse, but an economic and/or emotional value. The six figure folks believe that life and income should stop at the water's edge of the club gate and even though the 6 million dollar man pays Johnny the Caddie more than he does, I should still assign Johnny to Six figure man because their difference should not walk through the gates.  What utter bullshit for Johnny and his Caddiemaster.  Meanwhile, Six-Million dollar man goes, "what the fuck? I paid more last year to get in here than six figure man paid in the last 10 to belong here...I love Johnny, he helped me win the president's cup and he's the only one who can tell me where my elbow is at impact.  fuck, can't I get something I want for all this money?"  and the cycle begins...all have forgotten THAT THIS IS A LUXURY, A LUXURY!!!  And this is one stark, generalized problem...tell me a nuance, I'll tell you where it comes from.

C.  What your response doesn't address or target Mike is that whether you agree with my terms of what it is to burn money, I don't see you arguing that private club membership (and the largesses therein) and even Golf itself is not a luxury.  do you refute that?  I'd be interested to hear if you have a take on that.  Because if it is a luxury, then understanding the nature of what goes on in the accountant's office with the individual club man is irrelevant...leave the club is what me and the accountant are likely to say, you unfortunately don't have the money.

c1.  and to those of you already in, once in, looking to join a private club, I say the same thing I did last night...if you can't throw in the furnace then don't...if you don't want nouveau riche assholes coming i nto raise your expenses then don't let them in, but also forego their capital infusion to build new greens, have kiddie pools, day care nights, valet parking and fresh flower beds every season or again, take your money and find another way to spend it.

I love Golf, I breathe and draw nourishment from it in al manner of ways and I have sincere affection for most all I've encountered in this realm, but when you forget it is a luxury, you have gone off the rails.

I believe that Starbucks makes coffee better too, unfortunately some think that because it is a private club, that club should at least as well as a multi-national conglomerate...and your costs go up, even though no better has been rendered...in fact, it is a bother.  and ocne agin, we forget that this is a luxury...nothing is free or a bargain, unless you don't pay for it.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2011, 10:33:48 PM »
Whatever. But the only place I can ever get a decent shoe shine is at a private club. Sarge does like a properly shined shoe
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Doug Siebert

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Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #108 on: January 31, 2011, 03:35:54 AM »
I think you are a little off base here. I don't know the exact numbers but Southampton Golf Club and Sebonack GC sit relatively next to each other. I would guess that the members complain equally at both, and their price points are significantly different. With a restored Raynor course and a new Nicklaus/Doak course, one can argue that the 10 round split difference between the two would max out at 7 plays for one and 3 plays for the other. Yes Sebonack has a real estate time share like component to it that is hard to value, but only one has a "true" waiting list. The difference is simple, it was the cost of the land.


Mike,

Not only do I not know the numbers at Southhampton and Sebonack, but I've never set foot on either property.....but if they are "roughly similar" as it appears you imply here, but have wildly different costs due to Sebonack's much higher cost of land acquisition (which makes sense, being much more recent) then it sounds to me like it would be more a case of Southhampton being underpriced rather than Sebonack being overpriced.  If both courses comprise roughly the same land area, and roughly the same land quality (in terms of not only golf, but other potential uses that may be possible, such as real estate) then the cost component of membership in the "land" category should also be roughly the same.  It doesn't matter if Southhampton was purchased for $24 in beads three centuries ago, if the land could be sold TODAY for $50 million, that's what it is worth.  If it has a deed that specifies "land can only be used for the Southhampton Golf Club, if that club dissolves then it reverts to the original owners", that would make it worth less (but still closer to $50 million than $24)

Now the club can decide to charge whatever the hell it wants to charge, but if it undercharges in that respect, then a waiting list would be a likely result.  And they may not care, it might make the current members feel better about their membership to belong to a club with a nice long waiting list that allows them to be a bit selective versus one so expensive that they end up taking any rich idiot who walks up with a big enough checkbook.  In the end I guess its really no different than a rent controlled versus non rent controlled apartment in Manhattan - the non controlled rent is the market rate, the controlled rate is less, and thus will have the waiting list.  That doesn't make the rent controlled one better in a non-financial sense, but in some circles there is a non-financial value associated with a rent controlled apartment, as it separates those who have roots in the city from the newcomers...
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean_A

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Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #109 on: January 31, 2011, 03:59:45 AM »
VM

I don't think Mike Y is claiming membership to a club is not a luxury.  Nor do I think he is claiming that all clubs should be cheap and cheerful.  My read of Mike's many laments is that clubs should be fiscally responsible and that often times this can require cutting back expenditure if keeping long serving members is a priority.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Frank Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #110 on: January 31, 2011, 04:37:41 AM »
Thanks Bruce. How bout a good shoe shine?

Hey Jeff!  Don't you mean a good shoe "detailing" ?  :)

bill_k

Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2011, 12:25:26 PM »
Having been employed in various capacities at several well-known facilities, I have a unique perspective on this subject. Almost all of the facilities at which I have worked have been profiled on this site and/or  repeatedly mentioned in the discussion forum a great deal. All have great golf courses and all are equally associated with world-class service. I was fascinated by the writings of Mr. Kmetz in this thread - as we share many of the same experiences and observations.
I doubt anyone truly knows what really happens behind the scenes at many clubs...nor would they want to. I spent a season working at the most prestigious club in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area and was absolutely horrified to see the rampant marijuana/prescription drug use amongst the cart attendants/valet staff when I arrived. I reported it to the First Assistant and never heard about it again. Several guys were selling pot right out of the caddy shack (including to at least one member). I had mistakenly accepted the position as a means of career advancement because of the club's reputation but almost everybody else on the staff were college/high school kids.
I also worked very briefly at a highly regarded, extremely private, 36-hole facility in the Southeast. Same thing, except here the cart guys had a little game where they would try to see who could be the most brazen. One day a guy stood at the bag drop, in plain sight, and fired up his pipe with members walking back and forth past him. All of the guys here were college-dropouts, college students, and illegal immigrants.
You might be spending 1 million plus for a home, and then another 20k per year in dues, but nowadays, that money is going to pay for expensive GM's, Executive Chefs, ARB coordinators, Social directors, catering managers, F&B directors, club managers, facilities managers, accountants, and, at least one club with which I am familiar, a full-time trainer for food-service staff. In the meantime, the very first person a member/guest sees at this facility is not a professional who is committed to providing great service-but is a guy who may or may not be so high that he forgot to put his schlong back in his pants after his last trip to the restroom. But if you can walk inside and ACTUALLY FIND the Director of Golf who is making $175K or the GM who is making $300K...either of them could probably take care of whatever you need...IF THEY HAVE TIME.
You get what you pay for...kinda.

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2011, 02:08:45 PM »
my favorite services

1-great golf, incl prac facilities, caddies, etc.

2-great pro, great super and great GM (if this role exists)-and from them, great staff

3-great food.  doesnt have to be fncy (in fact prob better if its not)

the above are all GIVENS for me--otherwise the club isnt any good

"frills" i like

no tipping--one club i know doesnt even allow tipping FOR THE CADDIES.  makes my life easier.  any club that does this makes it up to the staff

shoe shine--not the wipe u get at a resort, a real shine-love that

car wash--i dont have time during the week

haircut--see above--but nobody uses it, so this one is dying

learning facility--scioto has a great one

short game facility--tough to do


Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2011, 02:28:56 PM »
I'd also say that at he better clubs i've been to, the department heads are almost like family--in some places almost all the staff is like family.  i think that at a top club, if you cant get people to come back in these jobs year after year, you have poor management.  Exception might be the east end of LI--REALLY expensive to live there and the job is only 6 months.

the sine qua non for me at good clubs is how guests are treated, especially when the member is not around--guests should be treated like members, excepet that they need to be greeted and pointed in the irght direction, and gently told any really strict rules.  places where staff turn theor noses up at guests are lookie loo clubs.   

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2011, 02:57:31 PM »
vk:

Your posts accurately describe my experiences in many ways.  The description of the differing income strata within a club and the different interests of each group looks about right and explains why so many decisions are made at my club which are 180 degrees different than if I were running the show. 

I try and weigh in on the stuff that really matters to me (new members and the golf course), stay out of the rest (pretty much everything), and remember that a club is a group of people joining economic resources in an effort to have fun.  If you want to take advantage of the collective resources you need to accept collective decisions. 

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2011, 06:14:23 PM »
i know of a club that delivers dinner to members homes that live nearby--thats one i'd love to have. 

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #116 on: February 02, 2011, 09:35:05 PM »
PGA Tour player Webb Simpson tweeted the following the other day from The Madison Club in the CA desert:

Halfway house? You kidding me? I have already gained 16 pounds today. Kobe beef burgers, lamb, ice cream http://yfrog.com/h0b4emlj
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2015, 10:21:19 PM »
I like getting a text or email from My pro telling me he has a few shirts in my size that he thought I might like.  

I like how our first assistant always shakes my ten year olds hand when we walk into the pro shop.

I like that our pro always chats with the guests I bring before giving them a locker key.

I like hitting golf balls next to the tennis pro late in the afternoon while discussing my sons progress from the tennis lessons he takes.  

I wish golf lessons were priced like tennis lessons though.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2015, 10:54:51 PM »
I suspect this is a thread aimed more at the modern club, rather than traditional older version

When you have to be adding services to appear unique I wonder if that misses the whole point.  Trying too hard is not cool

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #119 on: February 22, 2015, 07:39:28 AM »
Things I hate:
* Forced valet parking
* "Don't touch your own bag - we'll do it all for you" type service
* Bag staff wearing Scottish fake uniforms
* Staff that smokes while they're working

Things I love:
* Nice staff members.   I don't want fake - we all have bad days, just be friendly.
* Mutual respect - members and staff truly respect each other
* Plenty of water on the golf course

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #120 on: February 22, 2015, 09:13:29 AM »
I understand that they look pretty, but the pyramid of practice balls seems like a waste of time and resources.  All the more so when a range attendant rebuilds the thing every five minutes.  I played at the Duke's Course at St. Andrew's last summer, which has mini Titleist golf bags full of range balls at each station.  It looks uniform and tidy, but more doesn't need refilling after every player.

I appreciate a course/club having water stations every few holes, whether I have to pay or they offer it for free.  I walk and carry, so I don't want to have to lug all my water with me from the start.  (I grew up in Scotia, and nine years into my American experience I still haven't gotten used to the heat, so drink 6-7 pint of water each round during the summer.)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #121 on: February 22, 2015, 09:19:52 AM »

I wish golf lessons were priced like tennis lessons though.


What are you suggesting?  I can't quite figure out why tennis pros give lessons at what must be a 10 to 1 ratio compared to golf.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #122 on: February 22, 2015, 11:08:04 AM »

I wish golf lessons were priced like tennis lessons though.


What are you suggesting?  I can't quite figure out why tennis pros give lessons at what must be a 10 to 1 ratio compared to golf.
JK,
The poor tennis pro has the most dangerous ob at a club.  If one can make it 5 years without a member wife banging incident he is a hero.  Give him a break....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2015, 12:20:56 PM »
best frill I've seen is a club playing this on the range before a crucial grudge match with the demon seed Spartan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF--ldYIBnM

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unique services at Private Clubs
« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2015, 01:06:10 PM »
We're not a private club but as part of your green fee you get all inclusive in the clubhouse including premium alcohol :o

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