[Peter Pallotta]

Please discuss - historically, philosophically, in practical and current expression.

I'll start: cynicism (also called, by Camus I think, the greatest temptation of intelligence) is a strong/harsh word. So I'd ask instead:

What comes after the idealism of the beginner's mind?

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

A beginner will not lose his innocence until he meets his first expert.

[Adam Clayman]

That's BS John. More likely when the beginner thinks they are no longer a beginner open to learning. 

[Mac Plumart]

Adam...I think you might be right.  In my line of work, I always say that once someone thinks they are truly an expert and, therefore, they have nothing left to learn then it is just about time for them to get hammered!!!  Maybe the same is true on golf architecture and/or the golf experience.  Once you think you "know" or "you know better" then everything is a let down.   

[Joe Perches]

What comes after the idealism of the beginner's mind?

Depends on the beginner.

For most:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

[Don_Mahaffey]

I suppose there is a reason the word idealism is so often preceded by the word youthful. As the father in a family of many children I can attest to the hurt I feel when one of my children loses that youthful idealism to the realization that for the most part it is a cynical world we live in.

In golf I think there are very few idealists. Some Architects claim to be, sort of, but will also quickly use “it's what the client wanted…” line when something they design is less than ideal. Most all of us I guess are more realist then idealist, but the older I get the more I wish to revert back to the idea that the pursuit of perfect is a good thing even if I’ll never get there.

[George Pazin]

A beginner will not lose his innocence until he meets his first expert.

I think I'd say a beginner will not lose his innocence until he bears responsibility for his actions. It's always easier to Monday morning quarterback when you're not in the game.

Nice post, Don.

[RJ_Daley]

For purposes of applying this to golf:

"What comes after the idealism of the beginner's mind?"

I'd say reality or realization.  You realise it is hard, complicated, demanding, etc.  You realise it isn't as easy as it looks.   In this, I assume the 'beginner' first never played the game and takes it up because it looks ideal, appears effortless, or just seems like a nice environment in which to recreate, etc.  The ideals are all present for the beginner; look, feel, observation of fun or pleasant task.  But, once the beginner is into it, reality sets in.   There is where the crux of who sticks with it comes into the process.  One can become cynical from that point of reality setting in if they are either not up to the challenge, or just don't like it in some manner that repulses the senses, if you are wired that way.  But, I also think you can become cynical after the reality sets in about the nature of the endless pursuit of 'doing it well' , but still continue to pursue it for your own version of fun, challenge, or other motivating factors. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Don,
Ditto with the kids.

PP,
Once I realized (when it was I don't know) that there really were ideals worth striving for I stopped thinking about it.     
Now I just try to be as accurate as I can in what I do and in my assessments of all things, and let it go at that.

 
 
 

[Ian Andrew]

Well since it was my tag line that got this going I feel I should weigh in….

I didn’t include the end of the quote because I don’t agree. I like the first part because it points out that we all tend to start with an idealized view of a subject matter, which eventually gets transformed as we gain a new and deeper understanding of it. The more we learn, the more experience we gain, the more we can understand the subject.

I’ll confess it’s a subtle nudge.

For the record, I find cynicism to be dismissive. I find that tends to come more from idealism than it does from experience.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks. Thoughtful and mature answers -- one might even say "experienced" answers.

You've already precluded my second thought: even though I'm a sucker for idealism (in the good sense), the word can also imply naivety, youthful or otherwise. 

But has no architect ever produced a top-flight golf course while in his naive and/or idealistic phase?

Is it possible for a great course to be the product of idealism?

Or does idealism not apply in the world of golf course architecture?

[Jim_Kennedy]

PP,
Think NGLA and ANGC.

[Ian Andrew]

Is it possible for a great course to be the product of idealism?

Peter,

I think it's more likely to occur when you have a clear focus on what you want to accomplish.

For some it comes through conviction or idealism.
For others it comes through collecting enough ideas to have the right answers when given the opportunity to accomplish something better.

[Mac Plumart]

Isn't the Bandon complex the ideal type of golf the Mr. Keiser was going for?  It sure sounds like it.  NGLA is and was that ideal course that CBM was going for.  Pine Valley, Cyrpess Point, The Golf Club, Sand Hills.  I'm sure I could come up with more.  So, yes...idealism most definately applies to golf course architecture.

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn't the Bandon complex the ideal type of golf the Mr. Keiser was going for?  It sure sounds like it.  NGLA is and was that ideal course that CBM was going for.  Pine Valley, Cyrpess Point, The Golf Club, Sand Hills.  I'm sure I could come up with more.  So, yes...idealism most definately applies to golf course architecture.

I doubt if Keiser expected to have to dumb down the 14th at Bandon Trails or pay someone to tote fat dolts up the hill.  I bet he is a touch more cynical about the public golfer than before he entered their world.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mac,
Bandon is good, but ideal? Too many concessions to the "retail" golfer made BD as much about business as good golf.
Lets not confuse good with ideal.

[JC Jones]

Most people either describe me as an idealist or a cynic.  I can't figure out how I can be both.

[Charlie Goerges]

Many years ago when I was living in Prague and I began to feel that my fellow "artists" were producing unconscionably derivative garbage I decided to make my commentary on that situation by making my next piece literally out of garbage. Rather than producing the desired effect, I found that not only was my work so much better than that other garbage that my point was entirely missed, it was also incredibly lucrative. This situation drove my cynicism deeper and so I felt that I had to get my point across. If garbage wasn't an apt description of everyone else's work, what would be? Then it dawned on me...

[Mike_Young]

I assume this topic is slanted toward GCA....
hmmm....seems to me that any field that has a very low barrier to entry allows for a quick ride toward that "perception of expertise"....
I consider myself a realistic idealist......and soft experience in GCA allows for more idealism....

Read the book "Outliers"..the 10,000 hour concept holds a lot of water

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