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Matt_Ward

Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« on: January 22, 2011, 01:36:29 PM »
On the Stone Eagle thread a few people asked me to post my top 25 CA golf courses. I have done so below. All courses are broken down in groupings of five (5) -- they are also arranged in alpha order within their group. The reason behind that is simple -- I don't see a course can be said to be #13 versus #25. No doubt my groupings of five (5) is arbitrary -- but then again it's my listing.

I have to admit that a Jersey guy I don't see all the key courses in the state that frequently. So if people have a quibble here or there please let me know. Most of the courses I have played within the last five years -- some are a bit further back than that. There are others I want to play and I have IDed a few of them at the bottom of this post.


1ST FIVE

Cypress Point
LACC / North
Pebble Beach
Riviera
SFGC

2ND FIVE

Martis Camp
Mayacama
Monterey Peninsula / Shore
Olympic Club / Lake
Stone Eagle

3RD FIVE

California Club
Pasatiempo
PGA West / Nicklaus Private
Spyglass Hill
Winchester

4TH FIVE

Lahontan
LaPurisima
Links at Spanish Bay
Quarry at LaQuinta
Valley Club of Montecito

5TH FIVE

Barona Creek
Bel-Air
Cordevalle
Meadow Club
Rustic Canyon

*Please note: Have not played Madison Club, TPC Stonebrae

Left off:

The Preserve, PGA West / Stadium, Porcupine Creek, MPCC / Dunes, Stanford, among others ...
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 02:23:43 PM by Matt_Ward »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2011, 01:48:37 PM »
I guess you haven't played Lakeside.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2011, 01:49:22 PM »
Brian:

Yes, I have.

Sometimes something has to miss out. I like Stanford -- but when you have only 25 slots -- something has to give. Think of Stanford as being just on the outside.

John:

Fair enough ...

Anthony Fowler

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 02:01:42 PM »
Matt, thanks for the list.  I suspect that the newest version of MPCC Shore will be added to your list when you play it.

I am partial to two Bell courses, San Diego CC and Saticoy.  Have you seen them?  I could understand if they're not in your top 25, but I'm just curious.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 02:04:44 PM by Anthony Fowler »

Matt_Ward

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 02:22:53 PM »
Anthony:

Mea culpa -- meant to say Shore course for MPCC -- I have had a few courses that are quite close but did not make it - the dunes being one of them. Tough with 25 courses to fill but I wanted to include a wide variety of types, lengths, styles, etc, etc.

Played SDCC and Saticoy but frankly the bar has risen dramatically with a number of the newer courses that have come onto the scene.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 03:25:12 PM »
I've lived in Ca for 30 years and this is the first time I've heard of Winchester CC; I see Matt thinks Martis camp is the only course better in the mountains, high praise indeed.

"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Bill_McBride

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 04:09:07 PM »
What happened at The Valley Club and the Meadow Club?  They wouldn't comp you?

Matt_Ward

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 04:13:45 PM »
Pete:

RTJ and RTJ Jr did the work at Winchester -- on the way out of Sacramento and on the higher ground. Really well done layout but likely few have played it.

Martis Camp is far beyond the ordinary / predictable TF course. Those who have only sampled TF from the likes of Peilican Hill or The Vintage Club or even The Preserve -- will be in a state of shock in regards to what TF and his team have done there. Martis Camp is the perfect counterpoint to its nearby NV neighbor in Clear Creek.

Bill:

I played Valley and Meadow years ago and would need to return and see how things have progressed since then.

R_Paulis

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 04:29:56 PM »
Suprised to see LaPurisma on the list. I'm a fan of LaP and rank it in my Cali25, but I have not played near as many courses. LaP seems to get knocked by some GCA discussion board members. I thought you were one of them Matt, but I could be wrong.

John Kirk

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 06:35:31 PM »
Nice list, Matt.  Thanks.

I may get back and say which courses I'd like to see higher or lower, but time may not permit.  Great job, though.

Michael Blake

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2011, 07:03:22 PM »
Not to threadjack, but on LACC's site is a downloadable 34 page commemorative document which describes the completed restoration/renovation.  There are before & after photos of each hole with comments & explanations from Gil H & Geoff S.

sorry if alreday discussed before.

http://www.thelacc.org/files/NorthCourse_Commemorative_Edition.pdf


Jud_T

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 07:03:38 PM »
Matt,

Thanks for posting the list.  I could quibble with the placement of a few, but on the whole I can't find much fault with it.  And you identify a few courses that I'll have to put on my radar...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

rjsimper

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 07:18:12 PM »
I know we've been through this before, but I don't think La Purisima belongs anywhere on a top 25 list. Rustic and Barona are both far superior.

Otherwise, based on the courses I've played, I don't think anything seems terribly out of place.


Matt_Ward

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2011, 07:44:18 PM »
R Paulis:

Thanks for the comments. I have played LaPurisima quite a few times -- always enjoyed the relative isolation it provides. The holes are also quite solid -- and when you get any wind blowing there -- something that happens regularly on most afternoons -- you then have to have some really good game to make a decent score.

I always thought that nearby Sandpiper gets more publicity because being in Goleta and closer to Santa Barbara -- along with a few of the holes that run parallel to the ocean were the big reasons. LaPurisima offers a good deal more with less of the logistical benefits.

Ryan:

You'll have to tell me why Rustic and Barona are both "far superior" -- I can see people saying that both are better but the margin is more akin to that of Affirmed over Alydar than anything else.

Andy Troeger

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2011, 09:56:57 PM »
Matt,
Not a Sherwood fan?

I'm guessing the Valley Club would be higher on my list than yours, but that's the only one on your list that I've seen that really surprises me.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 10:25:04 PM »
I"ve played them all and live here in the Bay Area.  I've never thought about putting together a list but may have to.  The only glaring change I would make is Mayacama which I think is vastly overrated and would barely make my top 25 much less the 2nd five.

rjsimper

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 11:39:06 PM »
I've played La Purisima 5-6 times over the course of about 10 year, though my last play was maybe 4 years ago, so forgive if I miss on any details I reference. I have played it socially, in tournament play, and solo. In wind and in calm.

Generally speaking, I think the two best things the course has going for it are that it is a wonderful setting and that it is incredibly challenging.

The par 3s are each very good, but I think the course could use a 230 yarder. Last time I played, if I recall correctly, it was a wedge, a 6 iron, and a pair of 8 irons.

I find it to be severely lacking in options (sounds cliche for this board, I know) - it pretty much says "hit a long, straight tee shot, then hit to the proper section of the large greens, and bring your lag putting ability". Ground game doesn't really come into play.

The other thing I really dislike is that, ironically for a long, RTJ-era course, the course takes driver out of your hands in many cases. The tee shots are peculiar on the back. A good (or at least relatively long) player is likely not hitting driver on

2 (potentially), 4, maybe 7 and/or 8, 14, 15, and potentially 18. Not only does it take driver out of your hand, but it does so for no good reason.

That said, I don't have many gripes with the front nine. It is clearly the better of the two halves.

10 has that weird crossing hazard that doesn't seem to make much sense (since you can't clear it, and for a long player it means they have to lay back off the tee of a 450+ par 4)

I think 11 is an excellent hole. 14/15 is just a terrible, terrible back to back stretch of holes. I believe you and I discussed the 15th before, and I am of the opinion that it's one of the worst holes in CA *at least amongst good courses*

There are quite a few dogleg lefts. 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 14, and 15 are all dogleg lefts. Maybe 11 stands out from me because it's the only left to right hole. I guess 18 too, though that's more of a left to right second shot...the hole itself plays closer to straight if I recall.

As for Rustic/Barona being better...I admit to having MUCH more familiarity with Rustic and to me it's no contest. Options, variety, better greens, significantly more ground game options. The par 5s are better in a walkover. Not even close.

There are few or no shots at LaP that the outcome isn't predetermined once the ball leaves the clubface. It's aerial. Nothing like the deflection mound on the 2nd green at Rustic, the running draw approach to 4, the bathtub on 9 green, the calculations required for the 12th green, and really nothing that even makes you think off the tee to choose a line like you do on 14 at Rustic. Maybe you could argue for 2 at LaP, but that's more out of blindness than actual strategy.

Rustic has more give and take. LaP is much more take, take, take.

Rustic is a nice setting, but LaP has it beat there.

I can't refute point by point on Barona because I've only played it once, but I recall thinking that it would be a close horse race between RC and BC. And if I think Rustic walks over LaP, then logic says I must think that BC does too.

To me, La Purisima is near or at the top of the class that includes places like Hunter Ranch, Primm Valley, Hacienda, Redlands, etc


R Paulis:

Thanks for the comments. I have played LaPurisima quite a few times -- always enjoyed the relative isolation it provides. The holes are also quite solid -- and when you get any wind blowing there -- something that happens regularly on most afternoons -- you then have to have some really good game to make a decent score.

I always thought that nearby Sandpiper gets more publicity because being in Goleta and closer to Santa Barbara -- along with a few of the holes that run parallel to the ocean were the big reasons. LaPurisima offers a good deal more with less of the logistical benefits.

Ryan:

You'll have to tell me why Rustic and Barona are both "far superior" -- I can see people saying that both are better but the margin is more akin to that of Affirmed over Alydar than anything else.

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2011, 07:54:45 AM »
Matt - I've played all your top 25 with exception at Martis Camp.  My list would include Victoria - a Behr gem that is as good if not better than The Valley Club.  Doak 8.  Victoria would make my 2nd 5.  J

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2011, 09:41:26 AM »
Matt - I've played all your top 25 with exception at Martis Camp.  My list would include Victoria - a Behr gem that is as good if not better than The Valley Club.  Doak 8.  Victoria would make my 2nd 5.  J

JC, while the company might be a Doak 8 at Victoria, your rating reeks of insanity.

It's a very good golf course but I would put it outside of my 25. Some restoration work might put it in the 20-25 range.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2011, 09:56:17 AM »
That's an interesting grouping, Matt. I don't agree with the order, but in general the list jives with mine save a few exceptions.

I agree with you on Stanford, it's too botched at the hand of Harbottle and Mr. Furly to receive consideration.

The only glaring omission I can see is Rancho Santa Fe. Fort Washington makes my list, but this requires some heavy lifting (Fresno).

I've heard very good things about Winchester over the years, mainly from better players.

I believe a play of the "new" Meadow or Valley Club would elevate them a fair bit.

Have you played the revised O-Lake, revised Cal Club, or the restored Pasatiempo?

How about Wilshire or Hacienda?

You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2011, 10:59:20 AM »
Jonny Boy - I really liked Victoria and have always been a little less enamoured by Valley Club.  I have a friend who is a newer member at Valley and am lucky enough to play it on occasion so I'm not basing this on a one-time visit.  J

Jim Eder

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2011, 11:20:05 AM »
I agree with Jon Spaulding on Hacienda. What about Oakmont in Glendale? I was surprised Nicklaus Private was as high as it is to be honest and maybe a few others. It is always tough but great job on the list and thanks for alerting me to some that I have not played liked Winchester, Martis Camp, and Lahontan. Great job on the list Matt!!

David_Tepper

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Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2011, 11:43:12 AM »
Jon & Jonathan -

Where in California is the "Victoria" golf club you mention?

DT

Jim Eder

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2011, 11:56:17 AM »
David,

Victoria is in Riverside.  Wonderful course. Interesting finish.

Ivan Lipko

Re: Golden State Top 25 Listed ...
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2011, 12:00:46 PM »
Thanks for the list, Matt!

May I ask you a slightly off-topic question, though.
If the four Bandon courses were in CA, where would you place them in your list?