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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2002, 10:35:36 PM »
Ran,
I'm at a loss for words....Shows you what type of week I'm having!

Mike Cirba, As sonn as Dunlop posted this Topic, I was clicking the "Post" button. Plainfield #11 is all mine... All mine!

JEarle, When building false fronts, and speaking of "Tie-ins' where does this fit in the "Melding" process? And speaking of melds, Have you ever seen what M&M's CAN'Tdo in you hand?

(They can "MELD" in your mouth and not in your hands.--Ruthlessly stolen from an M&M commercial.)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

JEarle

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2002, 06:25:16 AM »
TEPaul
 Is the bunker in the middle of the fairway short of the green more psychological or physical ? It seems that with the location and lay of the land around the bunker that any shot headed to the bunker actually wouldn't reach the green. The ground falling away and left prior to rising to the green would kick the ball left. That may in fact minimize the trouble, shots heading left with that much speed could endup in the native grasses or at best the greenside bunker.

  The land does seem to allow a shot to feed from the rightside of the approach. It is a hard shot to play but is there anything wrong with a hard / tough shot? This type of "curveball" allows the architects to seperate the abilities of the players. While adding variety throughout the golf course.  If we think about other "curveball" holes, do they help the overall shot variety on there courses? It seems that #13 Applebrook approach shot and location in the landform is unique throughout the golf course. I think your comparision with Mike C. on the line of play is what makes "curveball' holes so interesting. More architects need to build holes that take time to figure out. This seems to be what all the great golf courses have in common.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2002, 06:51:51 AM »
GREAT discussion re 13 Applebrook, fellows!  I only saw it in one quick round, but I will attest that standing in the fairway, it sure LOOKS like you can just hit it to the right and bounce it down, curling left... only when you get closer to the green do you really see the effect of the "false front."  This is most definitely a hole that will grow on one, with study over many playings.  One more wonderful feature on a golf course full of them.

A young architect who knows false fronts is definitely Todd Eckenrode.  There are several on the two courses of his I've played, Barona Creek and Shadow Lakes out here in CA.  Particularly cool are the few at Shadow Lakes, which is a public course oriented around a housing development, and thus geared toward the "public" and "homebuying" clientele.  What's cool to me is that even with this as the main player, Todd didn't "dumb down" the greens... particularly on #1 and #12, there exist definite situations where a timid shot rolls right back past you.  Yes, it feeds back down the fairway - to make it feed into bunkers would indeed be "too much" for the clientele, definitely... But the fact it exists at all is very unique in the public golf experience out here.  Very cool indeed.

Please don't ask how I know where timid shots will end up on #12...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2002, 07:18:05 AM »
JEarle:

It's my belief that the mid fairway bunker short of the green on Applebrook's #13 is not psychological but very much central to a particular shot option! I don't know enough about the hole yet to know whether you have to play directly over it or just past it to the right or left to run a ball down through the dip and up the upslope directly in front of the green. That obviously depends on where you're approaching from.

But I can clearly see that that mid fairway bunker functions in the same way as some of the Ross and Flynn mid fairway carry bunkers that are generally about the same distances in front of greens.

Hanse apparently has the topography sculpted just right for this play and it will be an interesting option! Again JarredV has to keep the course up to the proper speed to make this option work the way it should--but they tell me that's what he's concentrating on!

This shot will require a bit of shot making, in my opinion, which would appear to be a low trajectory shot that just skims over the bunker or just past either side and gets onto the ground low and well back with lots of run to make it up the upslope. This shot should be a lot like the shot options necessary to run a ball onto NGLA's #12! I've learned you can't land the shot on or that near that upslope and with anything that's higher trajectory--you have to get it on the ground farther back and with a lower trajectory and get it running!

Gil's hole uses this option but complicates it a bit by using the mid bunker in or around the place you might want to get the ball coming in low on the ground--excellent stuff and again, a sophisticated option and design choice!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2002, 07:35:20 AM »
At TPC Jasna Polana, Gary Player has some false sides with blind chipping areas.  I know of 3 grown men reduced to the giggles by this great feature we don't see enough.  There is just not enough humour in golf.

False fronts are basically unfair, so I truly love them.

One course that has a lot of them feeding bunkers is Castle pInes Golf Club, but there are several and it gets old.  They are fun leading to chipping areas.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: False Fronts
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2002, 08:16:46 AM »
I can't believe that #2 green at Riviera hasn't been cited as a great false front green?!  It's the example given in justifying what stands to become one of the world's most beloved false fronts, Riviera's all new #8, a green with an apparent tribute to Pinehurst...#4, or was it #18 at Southern Hills they were thinking of?

Seriously though, it's believed many old greens, including Riviera's, had false fronts or slight upslopes at the entrance to the green, but it's pretty clear in most of these instances, including Pinehurst #2 as cited in Klein's Ross book, that years of top dressing proved to be the culprit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2002, 08:04:57 AM »
Three GREAT holes with large false fronts, two that throw the ball somwhat to the side and one that's straight:

6th Sunningdale New

4th Sandwich

16th Swinley Forest
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: False Fronts
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2002, 03:52:09 PM »
Hi All,

Just returned from Bandon so I'd have to say, for starters, the greens at the bookend seaside all world par 4s at Pacific Dunes, #4 and #13, have false fronts. There are surely others out there at Pacific too, but at the moment I'm still basking in the afterglow of a visit to this special part of the world and can't think straight.    ;D

More later.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: False Fronts
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2002, 07:34:38 PM »
Pete L,

On #8 at Barona, I'm not sure that's a false front. The day I played Barona, that's where the pin was!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2002, 07:50:24 PM »
They pinned the "false" front at #4 Pacific Dunes when I was there, too!  Actually, it was kinda neat to see pull hooks disappear over the front left gorse and then scoot across the false front to near to the pin!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie s.

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2002, 09:36:02 AM »
Willie Park, Jr. built some awesome false fronts at Greate Bay in Somers Point NJ. Nothing worse than having to hit a wedge to a green and worry ing about making par, but thats what a good one can do to you!

I haven't been to enough Park Jr. golf courses, but wonder if they are employed to any extent at Sunningdale, Olympia Fields et al., pictures don't often offer enough insight.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: False Fronts
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2002, 05:47:20 PM »
Archie:

That Willie Park Jr. remark of yours just made me wonder if the 14th hole at Maidstone might not be a Willie Park Jr. hole. A great false front on the par 5--a really high one and they have that pin hanging right near the edge of it a lot. I still haven't figured out how to play to that pin with that false front; I sure have never gotten close to that pin in a ton of tries!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:False Fronts
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2007, 09:38:29 PM »
I love false fronts! They are like the "land mines" that Tom Doak writes about in describing ideal hazard placements. Once you kow a green has a false front, doesn't it dramatcally change your thought process standing over a wedge shot?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:False Fronts
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2007, 02:00:08 PM »
Wayne,

What is the hole at Merion with the great false front? (I recall that it is right before you cross the road and play a short par 3.)

I've only played there twice, but I can still remember playing the hole the first time, hitting what I thought was a great wedge, then watching in horror as the ball came rolling back 20 yards off the green. But the part I remember most is my host, John Black, laughing at my reaction...seems he forgot to tell me about the false front...

Was that green changed by Tom Fazio?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 02:06:54 PM by Bill Brightly »

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:False Fronts
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2007, 02:05:22 PM »
that is #12

i did hear that the USGA was recomending softening that green to accomodate higher green speeds.  what a shame

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:False Fronts
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2007, 03:56:33 PM »
I love false fronts! They are like the "land mines" that Tom Doak writes about in describing ideal hazard placements. Once you kow a green has a false front, doesn't it dramatcally change your thought process standing over a wedge shot?

Actually, it might make you put away that wedge and pull out the seven iron!  ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:False Fronts
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2007, 04:49:11 PM »
Willie Park used false fronts for two purposes typically:

To provide an element of drama on a short approach with a high lofted club.

To provide the wily golfer a means of stopping a long iron/wood approach on a longer hole to a front hole location.

He liked to "waterfall" the front by having the false front's high point be at the edge of the green and fall away both toward the fairway and a little bit to the green - this would provide the kick stop for the long approach and would also propel an overstruck approach to the back of the green.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:False Fronts
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2007, 04:59:07 PM »
A false front green would be #14 at Pebble.  I'd bet more than half the game is unpinnable...

wsmorrison

Re:False Fronts
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2007, 07:20:52 PM »
Wayne,

What is the hole at Merion with the great false front? (I recall that it is right before you cross the road and play a short par 3.)

I've only played there twice, but I can still remember playing the hole the first time, hitting what I thought was a great wedge, then watching in horror as the ball came rolling back 20 yards off the green. But the part I remember most is my host, John Black, laughing at my reaction...seems he forgot to tell me about the false front...

Was that green changed by Tom Fazio?

Bill,

You are referring to the par 4 12th hole.  That green has some fantastic interplays of slope, some of them quite severe like the front of the green, the second steepest green slope after the front of the 15th.  There is a steep left to right slope on the 12th green as well.

Interestingly, Merion East has a number of false fronts.  There are some front pin positions on the course that are quite difficult and many of these are due to the false fronts.

The 4th hole at one time sloped uninterrupted down to the stream that fronts the green.  Today there are two bunkers fronting most of the green.  When the bunkers first appeared on the front of the green, they were smaller and shifted to the right so that only the right half of the green was fronted with bunkers.  The left front corner had a larger lobe on it as well.

The 5th hole has some very hard to discern ridges and plateaus.  Pin positions relative to these subtle features demand a careful and accurate approach.  There is a subtle ridge and back to front slope for the entire right front 3/4 of the green.  Balls that don’t carry past that small ridge and false front invariably come back off the green into the rough at the left front corner.

The long 6th hole has a brilliant false front.  The long approach must either be strong enough to carry the false front but woe is the golfer that carries to far when the green is firm and fast or the approach must start on the ground early enough with enough speed to carry the ridge.

The 7th hole has multiple tiers.  The rise to the green and over the first ridge acts like a false front.  Pins just over the first ridge require accurate distance control to a narrow section of the green.  Shots that are short or with too much spin will run down the rise to the green.

As I said earlier, the 12th and 15th holes have severe false fronts.

The 16th and long par 3 17th both have steep rises in the greens with only the Quarry Hole 16th with pinnable space before the upslope.

Lastly is the long and difficult 18th with its green domed along the line of play.  There is a steep upslope to the green with a demanding false front.  It is hard to hold that green and front pins are especially difficult.  Short shots require a deft shot to the front that doesn’t carry past the middle of the green where the green starts to slope front to back.  Shots that bound over the green demand precise recoveries especially to front pins as halfway across the green, it starts to fall away from back to front.


None of the Merion East greens were changed by Fazio.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 09:06:17 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_F

Re:False Fronts
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2007, 08:16:56 PM »
Wayne,

Does the 12th green offer many varieties of pin position?

In any photo I have seen of it, it appears reasonably smallish, and this is the green where someone once putted out of bounds?  

As per Ran's comment in the beginning of the thread, do these false fronts coax balls into differing positions off the green?

I love the description of the 18th green.  Damned if you are short, damned if you are long.

Lastly, if you don't have any pictures, I am available for the next three months.  I'll even supply the film...  :)

wsmorrison

Re:False Fronts
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2007, 09:33:26 PM »
"Does the 12th green offer many varieties of pin position?"

Mark,

It depends upon who is being asked and what the green speed is.  Seriously.  

I think there are several pin positions where if the green speeds are over 12, there are spots you can putt from up to a hole that will come back to you.  Of course you shouldn't be in those spots.  In this era, the 12th is considered a medium length hole.  Longer players can get within 8-iron to wedge distance from the back tee, especially if they can shape the shot left to right, so the demand to hit to the correct spot on the green isn't unreasonable.  

« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 09:35:13 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:False Fronts
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2007, 12:28:33 AM »
"The 5th hole has some very hard to discern ridges and plateaus."

Wayno:

The front of the 5th green just may be one of the most enigmatic green fronts I've ever seen in golf.

If that hole doesn't have enough going for it in every way it then has that green front.

I don't know whether that green front is just enigmatic or false or a riddle wrapped in a puzzle inside a conundrum but I've seen some of the most unexpected things happen to the golf balls of golfers of all levels if they land on or near the front of that green. And that included the otherworldly long Nebraska's own Long John Hurley.

And furthermore, if they do, and roll back away some or just stop short I've seen golfers of all levels just completely f... things up from there.

Don't you think it's just a crying shame that C.B. Macdonald didn't study that green front more carefully when he came down from New York to design Merion East?? If he had he might've learned something about golf course architecture!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 12:31:50 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:False Fronts
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2007, 12:34:49 AM »
Guys:

Merion's #5 just may be the most TOTALLY NATURAL LANDFORM GOLF HOLE AND GREEN of any of the truly great par 4s in the entire world.

Before Richie Valentine started screwing around with a light drainage swale on the high side of that green they probably pushed about 2 1/2 tablespoons of dirt to create that great hole sans bunkering.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 12:39:06 AM by TEPaul »

Yancey_Beamer

Re:False Fronts
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2007, 09:04:35 AM »
Ran,
Walter Woods tells me that the only recent change is that the mound in front of 17 was a egg yolk shape that was changed to a more oblong shape to direct the ball into the bunker.
Yancey

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:False Fronts
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2007, 10:24:22 AM »

"None of the Merion East greens were changed by Fazio."

we should add at the end of this statement

"yet"