New owners for Sunridge Canyon AZ

[Tom Yost]

Sunridge Canyon Golf Club in Fountain Hills Arizona has new ownership.

This page contains a link to the press release in PDF:
http://www.sunridgegolf.com/News-and-Releases_38.html

This was announced more than a month ago but more interesting is an article that appears in this month's Arizona Golfer titled:
"Sunridge Canyon Golf Club: A Good Walk"

http://www.azgolfernews.com/article.php?arid=435

In conclusion: "... but SunRidge Canyon Golf Club also boasts one of the most important intangible features enjoyed by all golfers: it’s a “good walk.” Maybe even a great walk. One that Mark Twain himself would be hard pressed to “spoil” with a sizzling snap-hook or a banana ball drifting O.B..."

Wondering if the club is promoting walking or if the writer of the article just wanted to weave the "good walk spoiled" quote into his story.  I haven't played Sunridge for a few years but I don't remember it as a particularly walking friendly course ?  A real estate routing that drops a significant bit of elevation down canyon on the front nine, then climbs back up the back.

Nonetheless, it would be refreshing to see a public daily fee like Sunridge encouraging walkers.  And nice to see ownership in the hands of a local couple vs. the corporate property managers.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I always liked Sunridge Canyon -- no doubt the finishing stretch of holes that climb out of the canyon are nicely done in juxtaposition to the ones that come earlier in the round.

Frankly, I have to wonder why the course has not really fared better when the overall public course options are considered.

[Tim Nugent]

Matt, although it's been some yrs, one of the biggest gripes (besides the uphill Bataan Death March final holes) was it was kinda tight and the outer rough/desert was pretty unforgiving.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom,

I posted this last month:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46771.0.html

[Tom Yost]

Tom,

I posted this last month:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46771.0.html

Missed that thread, dang it! 

I guess the real point of my new thread was the article promoting the course as a great walk. I'm tempted to give it a try!

I played the course three times in the first couple years it was open, before any of the housing.  That was a "several" years ago.  I mostly recall that it was one of the few courses where I could remember every hole and every shot I made.   I don't know if that is good or bad but it is unusual for me.

I do recall some holes where the trouble is indeed a bit close to the green where a slight miss can have a severely penal result. But overall, I remember the tee shots to be fairly generous.  I thought the use of the property was superior with a handful of EXCELLENT holes, some pretty good holes and a few ok holes.  The 18th was a pretty stiff test and perhaps one of my least favorite holes due to its "do or die" nature.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

OK -- but it's hard for me to swallow the "it's not too forgiving" argument when another place -- not far away -- in Desert Forest is raved by many on this site and it too features a very tight and unforgiving result.

I like Sunridge Canyon because the bigger hitters have to keep it in check -- a couple of foul balls there and you can get into a ton of trouble. The site is quite nice -- although I do agree about the closing stretch and how it just keeps going up and UP !

Keith Foster did a good job and frankly the lack of distance -- believe the course is only just over 6,800 yards from the tips -- doesn't really focus on the length dimension as much as the positioning off the tee.

Like I said - other Valley courses get plenty of ink and they are no more wider than Sunridge Canyon. Hard to fathom how one layout is OK and another less so.

Tom:

A great walk indeed -- be sure to have your legs ready to ache !

[Lou_Duran]

Any idea on the price and terms?

[Billsteele]

Lou-According to the Phoenix Business Journal, the sale price was around $2.6 million. No details on terms other than price. Don Misheff is a graduate of my high school and a pretty smart guy. I hope it goes well for him.

[Tim Nugent]

Tim:

OK -- but it's hard for me to swallow the "it's not too forgiving" argument when another place -- not far away -- in Desert Forest is raved by many on this site and it too features a very tight and unforgiving result.

I like Sunridge Canyon because the bigger hitters have to keep it in check -- a couple of foul balls there and you can get into a ton of trouble. The site is quite nice -- although I do agree about the closing stretch and how it just keeps going up and UP !

Keith Foster did a good job and frankly the lack of distance -- believe the course is only just over 6,800 yards from the tips -- doesn't really focus on the length dimension as much as the positioning off the tee.

Like I said - other Valley courses get plenty of ink and they are no more wider than Sunridge Canyon. Hard to fathom how one layout is OK and another less so.

Tom:

A great walk indeed -- be sure to have your legs ready to ache !

Matt, it's really not fair to compare SRC with DF.  They are on vastly different sites and have a different type of clientel (daily fee vs private club) and built for different reasons.  Just goes to show how some here place too much emphasis on 1) what others like, and 2) how long ago it was built.
My observations were from playing with Mr and Mrs. Average Joe.  I found the course to be plenty challenging and fun.  Kieth did a good job with the golf holes.  It's just a tough site to get housing and golf into.  Had it been a "golf priority" development, like DF, perhaps the CH would have been sited in the middle of the site, allowing for a downhill start & finish. As the name suggests Sun Ridge Canyon,  we have a canyon and a mountain ridge - ie lots of verticle topography to entertain.  For some reason, uphill and downhill holes always feel tighter to me than those that are more level.

[Matthew Petersen]

It would definitely be a tough trek back up the hill for the back nine, but apart from that I would imagine the course is pretty walkable compared to most of the real estate courses in Phoenix. The course sits on a small enough area that I don't recall any really significant green to tee treks. There might be one or two places where you cross a residential street, but there are plenty of courses out here where you do that after virtually every hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

My issue is that the tightness element is even more of an issue with DF -- but it gets rave reviews ANYWAY.

I don't doubt that Sunridge has moments that are gut check times -- especially for those who can't hit the
ball consistently. But frankly, I am not of the camp that all desert courses need to be 100% about total fairness
in all situations. Sometimes the players either need to up the ante on their own game - or if all else fails then move
up to a tee box that gives them a bit more elasticity.

Tim -- part of the issue for you may be just the concept of mental tightness you feel before pulling the trigger. Architects
of talent can play mental games and cause a bit of hesitation when you see certain aspects. I find that an appropriate tool.

No doubt Sunridge could have been routed differently with the cluibhouse in a different spot. On the whole, Sunridge for me is quite good -- makes you play beyond the width for width types that are in the Valley and those that are over-the-top penal. For whatever reason -- Sunridge lost plenty of attention when We-Ko-Pa opened and frankly while I like the 36-hole layout there -- some of that is tied to C&C people who worship anything the duo does. Often times -- other courses get pushed aside. Sunridge is one of them in my mind.

[Mark Smolens]

Matt, do you really think that Sun Ridge Canyon is in the same class as Saguaro? While I confess to having enjoyed a couple of C&C efforts immensely, having played both SRC and Saguaro, I don't think the two courses are in the same league, albeit fairly close geographically. Not only would SRC be a brutal walk, but there are a number of holes there that I simply have no recollection of, while I can probably walk myself thru every hole at WeKoPa. . . not Cholla, but Saguaro.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

I don't see Sunridge being in the same class but the fanciful myth thrown by a number of the C&C groupie brigade is that the course is miles beyond everything else in the Valley area -- especially when public courses are debated here.

I think the issue for many here is the width dimension -- Saguaro allows for the fullest range of mishits off the tee and then you can find your ball. For many -- that element alone -- is priceless when dealing with a desert environment.

At SR you need to be a bit more skillful and even tactical to keep the ball in play and to be on the correct side for your approach play. There's room present but Keith Foster is quite adept in providing golfers standing on the tees with an intimidation factor that can creep into the mind of the indecisive player.

I also think there's a "bounce" factor when certain architects are drawn into the discussion. Keith Foster is a very talented designer  and has created a good mix of fun and strategic courses. However, when the 800-pound gorilla of C&C gets placed alongside him -- the general feeling is that Foster is somehow a B-league version competitor.

Sun Ridge, as you correctly noted, doesn't provide for the e-z walk dynamic -- Saguaro does. You also have uphill holes that keep coming at the player with the inner half of holes at SR. Uphill holes, generally, are not ones many people are enamored with during most rounds. I just think SR is a bit better than many think and while Saguaro deserves plenty of praise for what it does provide on a range of fronts -- I also believe the gaps are not that wide apart.

[Tim Nugent]

Matt, do you think that if Keith Foster (a vey under-rated architect or under-the radar) did DF today it would garner all those accalaides?  I think it falls into that category of "it's old and still hard so it must be good" category.  When I was working on Desert Highlands and The Boulders, no one really talked much about it ( I wouldn't have even known about it if my Dad didn't tell me to go check it out). Like I said it entertains a vastly different type of clientle.  I would bet that those who dislike SRC would absolutely HATE DF and those that can play DF would probably not have very much of an issue with SRC.
My comments were based on what I saw when MR and Mrs Joe Average played it.  Golfers who are more comfortable at the likes of a Greyhawk or Troon North.
I doubt C&C would have been able to do much radically different, given the site, although...given the site and the parameters, they might have said - PASS

[Andy Troeger]

Tim,
Your comments here have been interesting for me. I've said multiple times (and almost always get outvoted) that I thought Desert Forest was way too narrow to be great for me, no matter how good the greens might be. I like SunRidge Canyon and would put it pretty close behind DF, although its a bit narrow for my tastes as well. I do think SunRidge would be better if it could have spread out the downhill/uphill holes a bit, but I don't see how much could have been done there. I'm one that thinks Saguaro is easily the best of the bunch, however, and the width there certainly does help make it far more enjoyable to play than the other two.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Let me just say this -- I believe that having courses that are narrow is OK -- provided you don't have excessive length that provides a double whammy. Too many GCAers seem to believe that unless you have a 60-80 yards fairway the course itself can't be very good. Let me emphasize I am not suggesting narrow courses to the point of a single-file walk.

Desert Forest has grown in stature because it became the first course to really integrate the surrounding desert countryside. The greens, as Andy mentioned, are also well done which adds to its qualities.

Your assessment on those liking Saguaro and not liking DF is likely spot on. The width dimension is clearly the main point.

I think that far too often the top tier favored architects here suck all the oxygen out of the room and often times other talented architects get little mention. I believe Keith Foster is one of them.

[Tim Nugent]

Tim,
Your comments here have been interesting for me. I've said multiple times (and almost always get outvoted) that I thought Desert Forest was way too narrow to be great for me, no matter how good the greens might be. I like SunRidge Canyon and would put it pretty close behind DF, although its a bit narrow for my tastes as well. I do think SunRidge would be better if it could have spread out the downhill/uphill holes a bit, but I don't see how much could have been done there. I'm one that thinks Saguaro is easily the best of the bunch, however, and the width there certainly does help make it far more enjoyable to play than the other two.

Andy, at the price of a new ProV1, nobodylike to lose them. Cuts into the beer $$$.

DF shows that if you make the fairways narrow enough, no one will realize there aren't any fairway bunkers.  So, just hit it straight and hit the litle greens where all of a sudden there are bunkers.  I don't want to make this rant on bunkers, but I never got the program.  

To each his own I guess.

Matt, it took awhile but we're on the same page now.  Back in the late 70's/early 80's, the landscape of Valley courses was, indeed much different and DF was rather unique in that it didn't try to put a California course in the desert.  Kinda like taking the FLW approach.  As it would happen, I arrived on the scene just as the modern desert courses burst on the scene and had to deal with the limits on turf - which re-introduced the concept Red Lawence hit upon much earlier.  Like it or not, you gotta give them props for relishing in understated look.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I think far too often the issue with desert golf is whether people really enjoy it or not.

If someone is hitting the ball all over the place -- then many layouts will be too demanding.

Desert Forest gets plenty of mileage from being a prototype course for what was to come later.

It is quite narrow in spots and frankly I am amazed that other courses of similar stature don't draw
comments.

Keith Foster is a fine designer and Sun Ridge Canyon -- even with its tough closing stretch of uphill holes --
has plenty of rave about. Greens are well protected and there are fairway areas that allow for
tactical positioning off the tee. Part of the issue is that Foster was quite adept in making the landing zones
hard to see from a number of the tees - this element can make the initimidation factor that much more of
a concern for many players. Like I said -- if a short list of top tier public courses in the greater Scottsdale area
are mentioned I'd have Sun Ridge among my personal top ten.

[Mark Smolens]

Matt, having seen your last couple of posts, I guess I don't think we disagree very much. I do think my high ranking for Saguaro is based more upon walkability -- not just that you can, but that they actually seem to encourage it, a rare commodity in my experience in the Valley of the Sun. There aren't many courses out there that have a Sun Mountain speed cart sitting on the first tee for me to use if I so desire.

I certainly would have nothing bad to say about Keith Foster (Shepard's Crook in Zion is one of the best golf values in the Chicago area, and as compared to its neighbor Thunderhawk is not only much more walkable, but a lot more fun).

Unfortunately I have not yet had an opportunity to play Desert Forest, but our compatriot Mr. Moore has promised to retify that deficiency in my gc resume when we're both in Arizona this winter. . .

[Matt_Ward]

Mark,

I agree -- I only wish more Valley Courses encouraged walking. That's one of the reasons why I enjoy playing Outlaw at Desert
Mtn -- it is a fun walk and devoid of the clutter of housing that prevails in most cases.

Interested to hear your take on DF when you play it.

If you want a public slleeper -- try either Vista Verder or the Raven at Verrado in the western valley area.

Sun Ridge has plenty of good holes but like I said since it's so near We-Ko-Pa the oxygen can get sucked out quite quickly and others are forgotten.

[Mark Smolens]

I love Vista Verde, but have never walked there. Seems like there'd be a bunch of long treks from greens to tees (tho I'm sure this crowd has figured out all of the shortcuts that I heard so much about at Apache Stronghold -- which was a darn tough walk for a chubby old guy that I guess I've become). I haven't been to Verrado on my last couple of trips out to see Mom, but they used to have a great all day + food fee (again, some long treks if you're walking).

[Tony Weiler]

Matt, Vista Verde is one of my favorites down there, perhaps by another archie that isn't as well known?

But speaking of that, the friends that I travel with to golf (outside GCA'ers) don't care if it's a Doak, a C and C, or a Kavanaugh.  They just want to play decent courses at a decent price.  In two trips to that area, we have played VV (every time, we all love it and the value, and who cares if they don't have a clubhouse), We Ko Pa (both), Grayhawk (Talon), Whirlwind (Devil's Claw), TPC Scottsdale, Raven at So. Mt., Sunridge Canyon, and a few others. 

To a man, SRC was our least favorite.  And all of us are single digit, so it wasn't the lack of ability to play the course, or make strategic decisions. The narrowness was a problem, plus I thought a lack of variety.  One big thing was also the conditions.  Just terrible compared to the other courses.  I don't mind brown, but it wasn't in good shape.  Perhaps that was part of the issue, and maybe that "colored" our opinions, but I wouldn't go back with all the other courses that one can play for a comparable price.  Then again, maybe I need to give it another chance.  TW

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Ken Kavanaugh did Vista Verde but the ownership doesn't really promote that fact. In other cases, you see the name of the architect splashed prominently. FYI -- Ken has done some other solid courses -- Rocheel Ranch in Rawlins, WY is another one should you ever head that way.

I agree -- most people, the ones you mentioned, just want a good course with fair rates. All of the inner mechinations often times debated endlessly here on this site -- really have far less of a consequence to them and countless others.

Tony, I hear what you say about SR -- but unfortunately, there are many players who can't adjust to tough driving courses -- SR is one of them. They often times expect it to be a "bombs away" day and should they do that at SR the penalities for mishits can be a tough one indeed. In regards to turf quality -- I can't speak to what you found there and if it's what you described then that's a black mark indeed. I've played the course twice -- early on during when it first opened and things were much different. It's likely the former owners allowed the place to slide considerably down in terms of tender loving care.

Tony, sometimes new ownership can play a major difference -- if wait to see what others say after the new owners have implemented somethings then a second play might be worth your while.

Please realize that I am not elevating SR to the level of a Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa or Vista Verde but the Foster design when I played it soon after it opened was quite challenging and fun. But, like you said, things can change over the course of time.

[Mark Smolens]

Matt, I'm going back to see Mom next week -- assuming that the blizzard of '11 will allow my flight to leave. What are your feelings about the other Ken Kavanaugh course in the Valley, Longbow? It's on golfnow, so we can get a decent greens fee. I haven't seen much here about it.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Longbow is a good step or two behind the likes of Vista Verde. If you need another public option try the west valley and head to Trilogy or better yet Raven at Verrado. Happy trails ...