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Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2011, 02:26:52 PM »
Padraig, Thanks. I accept that. In my example the event occured during the last round. So, a viewer can't call in if the trophy has been awarded?
             Does PH get dq'd if the current event happened on day 4 vs day 2 of the event?

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2011, 02:33:09 PM »
Padraig, Thanks. I accept that. In my example the event occured during the last round. So, a viewer can't call in if the trophy has been awarded?
             Does PH get dq'd if the current event happened on day 4 vs day 2 of the event?

Bruce if the trophy is awarded, the viewer's call is too late.

He could still get DQ'ed on day 4 but again it would have to after he signed his card and before the result was announced.



There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

TEPaul

Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2011, 02:33:28 PM »
Guys:

I realize this whole idea of allowing spectators or even television viewers into the decision making process of the "Committee" may seem strange or unfair to some but that's the way it's been for quite some time and obviously it gets more prevalent and complex with technology. JVB may know better than me when this ramification first came into the Rules of Golf (accepting spectator knowledge or testimony) but it's been in The Rules of Golf as long as I've been familiar with them. Below is how it is addressed and explained in the Rules (in the Decisions on the Rules of Golf, which are all considered to be part of golf's 34 Rules). Ironically or coincidentally, the following Decision which addresses this issue in detail is the very last decision in the Decisions book (of the actual 34 Rules);

Here it is----Decision 34-3/9:





DEC. 34-3/9 Resolution of Questions of Fact; Referee and Committee Responsibility

Resolving questions of fact is among the most difficult actions required of a referee, an individual Committee member or the Committee as a whole. For example, these situations include a broad array of incidents such as determining whether a player caused a ball to move (Decisions 18/10, 18-2a/30 and 18-2a/30.5), whether a player played from outside the teeing ground (Decision 34-3/4), whether a stroke was made (Decision 14/1.5), the hole at which a wrong ball was played (Decision 15-1/3) and the state of a match (Decision 34-3/5).
In all situations involving questions of fact, resolution of the doubt must be made in light of all the relevant circumstances and evaluation of the weight of the evidence, including the balance of probabilities where applicable (Decision 15-1/3). When the Committee is unable to determine the facts to its satisfaction, it must resolve the matter in the fairest way (Decision 34-3/5).
Testimony of the players involved is important and must be given due consideration. In some situations where the facts are not decisive, the doubt should be resolved in favor of the player (Decisions 15-1/2 and 19-1/4.1); in others, the doubt should be resolved against the player (Decision 13-4/35.5 and 21/3). There is no hard-and-fast rule for evaluating the testimony of the players or for assigning the weight to be given to such testimony and each situation must be treated on its own merits. The proper action depends on the circumstances in each case and must be left to the judgment of the referee, Committee member or the Committee as a whole.
Testimony of those who are not a part of the competition, including spectators, must be accepted and evaluated (Decision 27/12). It is also appropriate to use television footage and the like to assist in resolving doubt.
It is important that any questions of fact be resolved in a timely manner such that the competition may proceed in an orderly way. Thus, the referee in match play or Committee member in stroke play may be limited to evaluating the evidence available to him in a timely manner. Any such ruling is always subject to further review by the referee, Committee member or Committee as a whole as additional evidence becomes available.
If a judgment is made by a referee or Committee member, the player is entitled to proceed on the basis of that ruling whether it is an interpretation of the Rules of Golf (Decision 34-3/1.5) or a resolution of a question of fact (Decision 34-3/7). In situations arising in both circumstances, if the ruling is found to be incorrect, the Committee may have the authority to make a correction (Decisions 34-3/1 and 34-3/7). However, in all circumstances, including both match play and stroke play, the referee or Committee is limited in its ability to make corrections by the guidance contained in Decisions 34-2/5, 34-2/6,
34-2/7, 34-3/3 and 34-3/3.3.
 
 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:36:31 PM by TEPaul »

Brian Marion

Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2011, 02:35:40 PM »
At what point will the players begin to put enough pressure on the tour's management to do away with taking call in/emails? I'm guessing that is happening now and will get ratcheted up as more and more DQ's happen to the point where it will get changed. The tipping point will be when, not if, a player gets a major taken away from him after the wife and kids have hugged and kissed him on the 18th green or the player has bombed a 50 footer and the crowd went wild.. Ask anyone about the Dustin Johnson situation last year and everyone will say "thank god he didn't make that putt! (I know, a little different situation but you get the point)

The Tours already have major image and PR issues right now with a No.1 who has never won a major and who is not playing The Players because of a dumb rule, plus the fact that there seems to be a turf war brewing between the Tours. Couple this with the economics of events not getting sponsorships (Harbour Town) AND a TV contract renewal in the works. All it will take is for one high level TV exec to say  "research shows that today's xyz demographic views golf as out of touch and the rules are a joke, look at the call in DQ's as an example. So, we're only going to pay you "X" tens of millions less because that's all we think golf is worth." Remember, TV golf is driven by demographics and viewership buying power, not love of the game, it's rules and traditions. It's who's watching, what can we sell to them and how.

The rule will get changed then....

Keeping in mind of course, that each tour is "using" the Rules of Golf as they see fit and regularly change/amend them before the season and during individual weekly events with "local rules" anyway.

So, the PGA or Euro Tours could make a policy change and say "we aren't answering phone call or taking emails about rules violations". This wouldn't change the Rules of Golf, only the rules of competition for the Tour(s).

Another example why there is golf and there is Professional Tournament Golf...be careful if you confuse the two too much.


JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2011, 02:38:43 PM »
I'm curious if this sort of thing happens alot at state/local/regional golf events?  Maybe not to the extent of someone calling in a violation but someone other than a member of the Tournament Staff notifying the Rules Committee of an infraction.  

Yes.Every parent following their child in junior tournaments is certain that the other kid broke the rules.They may not know exactly which rule or how it was broken,but they're certain anyway.


Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2011, 02:39:51 PM »
Is there a difference in perspective if you change your view from the specific act of a golfer in a tournament to all golfers in all tournaments? While it has been financially hurtful to Villegas and Harrington in the last two instances, they still both respect the game.
Eventually, over a career it will tend to even out.

Any time you intend to lift and replace a ball you have the risk of incurring a penalty two times. At the very least your caddy should be nearby to stop any glitch.

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2011, 02:40:11 PM »
Brian



"Keeping in mind of course, that each tour is "using" the Rules of Golf as they see fit and regularly change/amend them before the season and during individual weekly events with "local rules" anyway."


Rule 33-8b

A Rule of Golf must not be waived by a local rule.


The Tours play by the rules of golf.

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2011, 02:43:00 PM »


Bruce if the trophy is awarded, the viewer's call is too late.



Didn't Hale Irwin try to return a winner's check after he realized he'd unwittingly broken some local rule but was told the tournament was over?

Brian Marion

Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2011, 02:48:08 PM »
Brian



"Keeping in mind of course, that each tour is "using" the Rules of Golf as they see fit and regularly change/amend them before the season and during individual weekly events with "local rules" anyway."


Rule 33-8b

A Rule of Golf must not be waived by a local rule.


The Tours play by the rules of golf.



Ok, I'm not going to get into that discussion which will take the thread WAY off course. Just note my other points, the phone will stop being answered some day.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:50:14 PM by Brian Marion »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2011, 03:09:40 PM »
Perhaps the ball didn't move but the camera angle makes it look like it did.  Maybe the ball moved but 10 humans standing over the ball couldn't tell, only a slow motion replay could show the ball moved 1/100 of an inch.  Maybe the ball rocked forward and then rocked back into position.  If Harrington is such a cheater line guy, don't you think he'd know if his cheater line was off?

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2011, 04:07:08 PM »
What's simpler from a Rules perspective:

- Making decisions from any and all available evidence?

or

- Making arbitrary decisions as to what constitutes evidence?

The test of anyone's principles is making a decision based on the facts, not what they want to happen. I don't think anyone wants to see a player DQ'd, though admittedly I can see how others would take that from these incidents (though I don't agree with that read).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2011, 04:28:53 PM »
It barely moved off its spot... wat a 1/64th of a revolution if at all, but rules are rules.... Harsh tho, perhaps there needs to be the equity rule that could sort these issues. He took it well didn't he.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2011, 05:38:57 PM »
Mac posted this on the Nicklaus thread but it is more appropriate here:

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2011/jan/21/harrington-dq-highlights-golfs-rules-flaw/

The best is when the European Tour Senior Rules Official who disqualified Harrington disagrees with the outcome.  My guess is that he doesn't really understand the rules of golf and if he did, he wouldn't have a problem.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2011, 05:56:34 PM »
Mac posted this on the Nicklaus thread but it is more appropriate here:

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2011/jan/21/harrington-dq-highlights-golfs-rules-flaw/

The best is when the European Tour Senior Rules Official who disqualified Harrington disagrees with the outcome.  My guess is that he doesn't really understand the rules of golf and if he did, he wouldn't have a problem.



My guess is that the increasing frequency of call ins has the ruling bodies in a lather. Continuing on the present course will only make the sport look silly, and that can have a negative effect on viewers. I would think the whole issue could be solved by a smartly worded local rule, stating that call in violations that are reported after the violator signs his or her card do not necessarily result in disqualification if the breach is considered minor.       
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2011, 06:34:24 PM »
"The best is when the European Tour Senior Rules Official who disqualified Harrington disagrees with the outcome.  My guess is that he doesn't really understand the rules of golf and if he did, he wouldn't have a problem."


JC:

Not necessarily. Under the Rules of Golf (Rule 34-3---Committee's Decision) there is a procedure for this. I haven't read all the details of how this whole thing played out but it is certainly possible that when the "Tournament Committee" reviewed this situation, including the video tape, that the vote of the committee was that the ball moved. The actual official who technically informed Harrington of his DQ may've voted that he didn't think the ball moved but if a majority of the "Tournament Committee" voted that it did move then that would become the Committee Decision and the decision made. This is all part of Rules procedure and it is all found within the USGA/R&A Rule Book and the Decision Book which is part of the over-all official R&A/USGA Rules of Golf.

I realize that very few golfers ever read the section of the Rules Book that essentially deals with "The Committee" (Rules 33 and 34 and Appendix I) because it rarely concerns them unless they also do Rules officiating or get involved in some odd situation. But Rules officials are sure familiar with it because essentially that's why they are out there officiating. With any golf tournament there are always some odd things that come up and we are often even given boilerplate sheets to fill out after competitions to record these things so they can be reviewed later for educational and efficiency purposes.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:41:04 PM by TEPaul »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2011, 06:41:36 PM »
Tom,

His issue, per the article, was that a 2 stroke penalty assessed after a player has turned in his card (which was correct at the time he signed it), results in a disqualification and NOT a 2 stroke penalty.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2011, 06:46:08 PM »
Another sad day for the golf rules!  In Harrington's case, did the ball change position?  did he gain from it if the ball did change position?
Nicklaus is right on about need for simpler fairer rules interuptations.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2011, 06:53:02 PM »
 In the same way I cannot phone the premier league to point out an infringement I thought the ref missed, why should the viewer have a say at a golf event.  The rules do not need changed.  All we need to say is that TV video evidence cannot be used to make a ruling after a round.

Maybe rules need to be made for pro golf like how long after a round, if at all, tv replays can be used to make a decision.  Should we go back through the whole history of golf tv footage to and disqualify all those who are seen making an error?  Of course not but why are there no guidelines on when TV can be used?

TEPaul

Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2011, 06:53:53 PM »
JC:

At first I couldn't open that link but I just did. Andrew McFee, the referee or Rules official only said that philosophically he would rather see a two stroke penalty applied after the fact in situations like this. That is fine, and if he happens to be a member of the Joint R&A/USGA Rules Committee that in all cases make the decisions to change the Rules of Golf (every fourth year) then he could propose and vote for that if the Joint R&A/USGA Committee decided to put it to a vote and the voted to change the Rules of Golf to that effect.

But McFee did not say it should've been done at Abu Dhabai with Harrington because if it was then that Tournament Committee would have been waiving an existing Rule of Golf and Rule 33-1 makes it patently clear that a Committee does not have the power to waive a Rule of Golf!

By the way, the Joint R&A/USGA Rules Committee is made up of some members of the individual R&A and USGA Rules Committees and they generally meet 2-3 times a year to go over prospective Rules of Golf changes which come out every fourth year. They generally meet at the US Open, British Open and Masters.

Here's a bonus point trivia question for you. Who was the first man to serve on both the individual USGA and R&A Rules of Golf Committees?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:00:07 PM by TEPaul »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2011, 08:27:06 PM »
In viewing the video, I noticed he bumped it in the same way both in marking it and unmarking it.
Maybe his fingers need to go on a diet.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2011, 08:36:08 PM »
Ralph,
You should take another look, it's only one mark of the ball.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2011, 08:45:18 PM »
If we'd just bring back the stymie, this would never happen. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2011, 08:59:26 PM »
Ralph,
You should take another look, it's only one mark of the ball.

I am with you now. Didn't realize they showed it three times in that u-tube clip. Guess I assumed that first one was him marking it.
thanks for the correct.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2011, 09:03:58 PM »
Ralph,
That You Tube video can be confusing, the one from the European Tour is not.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2011, 09:44:23 PM »
In the same way I cannot phone the premier league to point out an infringement I thought the ref missed, why should the viewer have a say at a golf event.  The rules do not need changed.  All we need to say is that TV video evidence cannot be used to make a ruling after a round

It wouldn't matter what the rules said, if a player was found to have broken a rule by a TV viewer, he would be morally obliged to withdraw from the tournament when alerted to his error.  So changing the rule would not change anything. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

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