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JESII

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Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #175 on: January 24, 2011, 04:05:26 PM »
Jim: The Villegas incident was unintentional which in my scenario would mean that he would be assessed the penalty anytime before the conclusion of the competition but not DQ'd.  If it might have changed a cut line, etc., so be it but every player starts the event knowing that is what will happen if there is an unintentional rules violation.  


Jerry,

Well then it was a whole different version of "unintentional" than Harrington in that he knew he swatted a divot out of the way of a rolling ball. Harrington didn't know he was playing from a wrong spot. Villegas didn't swat the divot with the intent of cheating, but it was a very intentional act that would cost two strokes no matter when it was discovered and he would not have argued if his playing competitor had come over and said..."hey bro, you can't do that, it's two shots"...whereas Harrington would have had a very reasonable argument against a fellow pro coming over from across the greenarguing that his ball had moved a dimple and a half...and it has to come down to the player themself.

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #176 on: January 24, 2011, 04:28:37 PM »
As I always I follow these rules discussions with interest, and occasionally chime in.  Chime time with a few points!

1.  This DG, other DGs and conversations around innumerable water coolers have been fixated by a handful of incidents the past few months that led to penalties (usually DQ) being assessed.  Please keep in mind that the rules need to apply to all golf, televised or not, and the vast  majority of golf is nowhere near a television camera.  The focus of those responsible for reviewing the rules remains all of golf, and not just the high profile incidents on television.

2.   Several have made the suggestion that TV evidence not be used.  And the countervailing point has been made that to ignore clear evidence of a breach available through TV coverage would tarnish a victory and the game itself.  In my judgement ignoring television evidence will, in the long term, bring far more controversy and discredit than allowing its use.  It is easy to come up with numerous examples where a player may breach the rules without realizing it, and gain a significant advantage that in all probability leads to a lower score.  Inevitably and occasionally a player in such a situation will go on to win a tournament by one stroke.  If television catches that infraction but the rules do not permit the use of the evidence, the player's victory is forever tarnished in the minds of fans, his fellow competitors and the player himself.  The integrity of the game is seriously damaged as fans - serious and casual alike - have their faith in the game eroded.  As this happens on multiple occasions as time passes real damage to one of the pillars of the game - the integrity and honesty of the game and players - is undermined.

Are some of the results of using television unfair and unfortunate?  Unquestionably, and the Harrington incident is a perfect illustration of that.  But no one is questioning the integrity of the game today, they are complaining about a specific application of a rule under specific circumstances.  To not allow the use of all evidence would inevitably result in an erosion in the integrity of the game.

3.  Some are calling for the introduction of intent and subjectivity into the rules and on course rulings.  As an official who has worked at the highest levels of tournament golf I beg you not to require me to make judgement calls, that is an impossible task.  Rules Officials are responsible for interpreting and applying the rules, we cannot be responsible for determining the intent of a player, whether they knew they had breached a rule or whether they did so intentionally or not.  If you want fairness and consistency, do not ask different human beings to interpret rules, statements and actions subjectively, you invite sure disaster!  Being a good official is difficult enough, do not saddle us with the impossible task of looking into the heart and mind of the players.

4.  The USGA and R&A have both indicated they will be looking at incidents like Harrington's to see if a fairer way forward can be found.  You should know that is not a new initiative but one that has been under consideration for some time.  But the rules makers will, and should, be guided by finding a solution that is proper and legitimate, not a quick fix.  Their mandate is the long term integrity and health of the game, not a reflex answer to a very, very few incidents.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #177 on: January 24, 2011, 04:30:09 PM »
Shivas,

How about the lost ball searches? Or crossing a hazard line questions? Do we only use TV when the player thinks it will help?

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #178 on: January 24, 2011, 04:36:12 PM »
Jim: I must admit that I don't follow your argument.  Villegas clearly violated the rule and the act which he performed was intentional but that doesn't mean that he intentionally violated the rule.  I don't believe he said to himself:  I know I am not allowed to this but I am going to move these items while the ball is in motion.  If his playing partner or his caddie or someone in the gallery said to him: Dummy, what you just did is a rules violation, I would bet that he would then realize what he had done and accept the penalty.  My point is, who cares if he realizes it before or after he signs his card.  Now, if a player intentionally violates a rule while fully realizing that he is breaking a rule then it is quite a different story, but other than that, no DQ.

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #179 on: January 24, 2011, 05:02:29 PM »
 As this happens on multiple occasions as time passes real damage to one of the pillars of the game - the integrity and honesty of the game and players - is undermined.

How the heck can this game be forever tarnished for the non-calling of the same violations that were not called in the pre-TV Stadler incident era?  By that logic, there were no televised violations from the very first George S. May tournament through 1981 or whenever that Stadler incident was.   Does anybody really believe that there were no televised, uncalled rules infractions during that era?  Of course there were.  Did the game implode as a result?  Of course not.  Any golfer that noticed a violations on TV prior to the Stadler incident did what golfers do best - he muttered "sh*t happens" to himself and moved on.... 
[/quote]

Did violations happen pre television or pre Stadler television (not sure which time period you are referring to)? Of course, just like infractions happen at non-televised events all the time.  My point is that if you do not permit their use, but the coverage of rules breaches exists and is widely available (as certainly will be with You Tube etc.) that will have a worse effect on the game of golf than allowing their use.

BTW, how can a person who can reference Joan Baez and, especially Peter Green, in their posts be so wrong!!!
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #180 on: January 24, 2011, 05:09:36 PM »
Are some of the results of using television unfair and unfortunate?  Unquestionably, and the Harrington incident is a perfect illustration of that.  But no one is questioning the integrity of the game today, they are complaining about a specific application of a rule under specific circumstances.  To not allow the use of all evidence would inevitably result in an erosion in the integrity of the game.

Beautiful point, Dale, well said.

...Now, if a player intentionally violates a rule while fully realizing that he is breaking a rule then it is quite a different story, but other than that, no DQ.

And how do you intend to differentiate the two?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #181 on: January 25, 2011, 05:08:01 AM »
Mark: You begin with a presumption of innocence.  The player did not intentionally violate the rules unless there is sufficient evidence to the contrary.  Remember, the player is not out there alone and it is the absolute obligation of his playing partner/s to point out rules violations as well as any rules official who might observe a violation.  You want to begin with the presumption that all players will cheat if given the opportunity and I won't subscribe to that.  Keep in mind that I also recommend that deliberate violations result in substantial suspensions which would make it extremely difficult to keep your card and the ridicule would be incredible. 

I should also mention that it is my belief, although I have no facts to supports this, that the other competitors would not have objected if both of the recent incidents had not resulted in disqualification. 
Jerry,

I begin with the presumption that a small number of players, mayber even just one, might cheat.  You rely on the entire field, every single week, being utterly honest, despite temptation.  It's a lovely thought but doesn't correspond to the real world.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #182 on: January 25, 2011, 05:09:29 AM »
Jim: The Villegas incident was unintentional which in my scenario would mean that he would be assessed the penalty anytime before the conclusion of the competition but not DQ'd.  If it might have changed a cut line, etc., so be it but every player starts the event knowing that is what will happen if there is an unintentional rules violation.  
So Villegas shouldn't be D'Qed because he was ignorant of the rules?  Doesn't that make it beneficial to players to not know the rules?  How can that be a good thing for golf?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #183 on: January 25, 2011, 08:48:38 AM »
Mark: 1. It's always good to know the rules and if you violate a rule a penalty is assessed.  I just believe the punishment doesn't fit the crime if DQ is the punishment.  2. One player cheats so you want to DQ any player who violates a rule and doesn't assess himself with a penalty before signing his card which is illogical to me.  The PGATour has been around for a long time and how many players have been accused of cheating - I don't any, so I think my presumption of honesty has a basis in fact.   But let's say a player is caught cheating by a rules official or a fellow competitor, what will happen - I don't know how he would ever be able to face the other guys and it is a label that will stick with him for life - I am sure that the punishment imposed by the Tour would be substantial as well.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #184 on: January 25, 2011, 10:54:41 AM »
Is all that easier than just not answering the phone?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #185 on: January 25, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »
As a self confessed player who has had some issues over the years of which I remain totally ashamed and continue to rehab , I do wonder about the value of TV call ins.
I accept the long used "golf has more integrity than any other sport" and as such we allow this to happen, but once a scorecard is signed that really should be the end of the issue.
The examples being cited here nearly all are honest"mistakes" and once the card is signed that should be it.
Tell the player and hope he learns from it, but if the penlaty cannot be applied prior to signing, then it should not result in a dq...in my opinion.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #186 on: January 25, 2011, 11:07:43 AM »
I can't accept that Villegas should have escaped punishment for deliberately improving his likely lie, even if he didn't realise he hadn't infringed a rule.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #187 on: January 25, 2011, 11:16:06 AM »
I agree with Shivas on this, and the more I saw of the slow motion the more it looked like it oscillated and not moved.
I think the player should get the benefit of the doubt.
As for the Villegas incident..again it was a violation, clearly not of intent and had he been penalised prior to signing his card great..but a dq for that via TV ..I just have a problem with it...

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #188 on: January 25, 2011, 11:21:00 AM »
Dave and Mike,

You've both played plenty of tournament golf so you've undoubtedly seen the case where a scorecard was signed incorrectly, lower, and not recognized until it was on the scoreboard or pairings sheet or even the next days tee time sheet. How do you handle that once you've taken away, or at least reduced, the responsibility of signing a correct card?

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #189 on: January 25, 2011, 11:30:16 AM »
Mark:  AHA! I now see where you're coming from - you get pleasure from punishing people.  It's not enough that he is assessed a two stroke penalty - he must be punished.  

Shivas: I think the absurdity of it is even more evident when you consider the fact, at least as I understand it, that if Harrington had called over an official and told him what he believed to be the situation, he would have been okay even if TV later proved him to be incorrect. Or does confession somehow cleanse the sins of the golfer?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #190 on: January 25, 2011, 11:37:15 AM »
Jim,
Once again I agree with Shivas..this is not good twice in one day.
Then I would dq myself, in fact that happened to me in the State Am about 5 years ago.
Two out of the lead going into the final round, and showed up on Sunday to see that my score from the previous day was posted one lower than it should have been.
Sure enough my playing partner had me down for 4 instead of a 5 on a hole...dq

I just think that is a little different to an unintentional breach...but that is just me.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #191 on: January 25, 2011, 11:39:27 AM »
Not that I am saying the previous scenario was intentional...that was not one of my black days.....

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #192 on: January 25, 2011, 11:39:45 AM »
Shivas,

I guess what you're saying is that this wouldn't cause an incorrect card because if the penalty isn't handled prior to the signing it isn't being applied? Regardless of who brought it up? Do I have this right? Is the case closed once the card is signed?


Just saw Mike's response as well...what about the guy that doesn't come forward to DQ himself?

That question might be answered by your answers to the first...can I call you on an incorrect card the following day?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #193 on: January 25, 2011, 11:48:30 AM »
By ignoring TV evidence, you are penalizing the rest of the field, plain and simple. Period. How is it going to look the first time someone wins an event and he clearly broke a rule?

As for the DQ being too harsh, I think it has to be to strongly encourage accuracy and integrity. You are only going to encourage more mistakes in the future, more people being careless with the rules, if the penalty is maybe you get caught and only then is there a penalty. Again, you are penalizing those with knowledge and/or integrity in favor of those with ignorance and/or malice.

You can deride those who take the rules seriously all you want, it doesn't change the above. Allowing more subjectivity into the rules is only going to make what seems complicated now far far worse.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #194 on: January 25, 2011, 11:53:06 AM »

Is all that easier than just not answering the phone?


I bet everyone involved wishes the phone hadn't been answered the first time.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #195 on: January 25, 2011, 11:56:28 AM »
Shivas,

You know that's not true...Harrington, the other player and the official work it out right there until everyone's on the same page with "best facts" and the case is closed. Calling in that night with new evidence doesn't re-open the case.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #196 on: January 25, 2011, 11:58:51 AM »
I just am not convinced the players integrity has anything to so with the issue, that is why I am against the TV interference.
The scorecard scenario is a no brainer, if the numbers dont add up..dq.
But the incidents we are talking about are not player integrity issues, just honest mistakes that I do not think should result in a player losing his weeks livelihood.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #197 on: January 25, 2011, 12:11:14 PM »
Then I don't understand how the goal should not be to just get the ruling's right no matter how much hair is on it...

Seemingly, the only negative in all this is that some joker is actually able to call in (or email for god's sake...) and impact the results...again, why not just stop answering the damn phone if it's agreed that that process is a major negative?

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #198 on: January 25, 2011, 12:49:59 PM »
Mark:  AHA! I now see where you're coming from - you get pleasure from punishing people.  It's not enough that he is assessed a two stroke penalty - he must be punished.  
Jerry,

I just don't understand where you are coming from.  Have you seen the Villegas incident?  Come to that, has Michael W-P?

My 12 year old twins don't even have a handicap yet but they would know that you can't move turf to improve your lie.  But you're telling me that it shouldn't have occurred to a leading tournament pro that what he had just done was a rules infraction?  You're OK with him being able to sign for a wrong score because he didn't realise that that wasn't OK?  Frankly, if the game goes that way it's going to be the wild west.  The potential benefit for not knowing or considering the rules is going to mean dozens of these debates every single week.

And the lack of a cheating conviction on the PGA Tour doesn't mean there aren't any cheats.  Just that they aren't getting caught or, more likely, that no-one has the balls to call them out because it requires proof of intent and that, my friend, is almost impossible in most cases.  In my book Kenny Perry's work with his wedge a couple of years ago was worse than that muppet Saltman wrongly replacing his ball, in terms of benefit gained and he cannot, possibly, claim he didn't realise that improving your lie by working the grass behind the ball down with your club wasn't allowed.  But apparently it's common practice and no-one has raised the issue.

By the way, I'm happy to accept that Harrington believed the ball hadn't moved and I'm happy to accept that Villegas didn't realise that moving that divot was an infraction.  I'm just appalled that a professional golfer in Villegas' position wouldn't see that.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:56:16 PM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #199 on: January 25, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »
How about the Bamberger (SI writer) deal a couple years ago when he watched Wie take an unplayable lie drop (unescorted, I believe) and not say a word, then went back after the round to that spot and measure it and then point it out to the committee?

He was there on the spot and in person...I hated it at the time because it smelled like he had bad intentions by watching it and then going back later, when he knew it would be too late to not DQ her but I might be cynical. Wouldn't he be in your "best evidence" class? Or not, because he's not actually in the competition?

Certainly would put the emphasis back on fellow players to defend the field...or it could go the other way...

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