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Chris Roselle

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Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« on: January 21, 2011, 11:25:04 AM »
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=6044348&campaign=rss&source=GOLFHeadline

TV Rules Officials are becoming more and more popular this year......

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 11:43:08 AM »
I buy the defenses of the DQ rule as applied to Villegas, who knew that he did something but did not realize it violated a rule.  I think it's horribly draconian as applied to Harrington, who apparently had no idea that his ball moved.  He literally did nothing wrong, except failing (along with everyone else in his group and actually at the course) to notice that his ball moved.  If someone on site had noticed, they would have told Harrington, he would have taken his penalty, and life would have gone on.  This is a situation that could not have existed, at least among people behaving in a reasonable manner, but for TV coverage, and now that it's apparently becoming common practice for viewers to call in infractions I think the rule has to be changed to reflect that.

TEPaul

Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 11:52:05 AM »
In a Rules context this one seems right on the money (the correct ruling). I assume it was on tape and reviewable by the tournament Rules Committee (to determine that he really did move his ball and failed to replace it).

Harrington sure didn't seem to have a problem with the outcome. If there was any question at all in Harrington's mind that the ball moved he should've just remarked it, lifted and replaced it again, even if he felt it was to the same place. That, at least, would've removed all question of a violation of Rule 20-3, and then what followed after that fact.

If players really want to protect themselves from potential penalities like this they just have to understand all the ramifications involved with situations like this and how the Rules of Golf really do provide for these situations but you do have to really understand the Rules and these kinds of situational ramifications.

I seem to remember another situation like this with Harrington where there seemed to be some question that his ball may've moved slightly on the green due to really high wind. I think I remember that Harrington just stepped away after he had addressed the ball and watched it and then stepped back and addressed it again. What he should've done after he stepped away was mark his ball again, lift it and then replace it again and at least that would have gotten him off the hook if his ball actually had moved subsequently. For some reason he didn't seem to be aware of that in a Rules context or else he just forgot to avail himself of that particular potential penalty protection.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 11:56:32 AM by TEPaul »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 11:55:03 AM »
Golf narcs on the rise.  Disturbing, at best.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 11:57:16 AM »
I hope they strip him of his appearance money.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 11:59:16 AM »

 I think it's horribly draconian as applied to Harrington, who apparently had no idea that his ball moved. 


Pure speculation,but I'd bet he did know it.

There is no more meticulous (anal retentive) group of people--especially with regard to how they line up a putt.They set the ball down exactly the same way every time.

Again,pure speculation,but when those guys look down,they know when a dimple is in the wrong place.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 12:05:15 PM »
That's the first thing that popped into my mind JME, unless Harrington just puts the ball down totally random (as Shivas would like us all to do...) there is no way not to recognize a difference.

Isn't Harrington a leading cheater-line pratctitioner?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 12:07:50 PM »
Canned response from rules worshipers:

1)  The rules of golf are a great thing.
2)  Those who criticize the rules of golf dont understand the rules of golf.
3)  Correct rulings, above anything else, are the purpose and goal of the game of golf.

Reasonable person response:

His card was accurate to the best of his knowledge at the time he signed it.  If the tour is going to allow some rules reject to call in and affect a player's score then they should re-open the card, assess the penalty and have the player re-sign the card.

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 12:09:48 PM »
Reasonable person response:

His card was accurate to the best of his knowledge at the time he signed it.  If the tour is going to allow some rules reject to call in and affect a player's score then they should re-open the card, assess the penalty and have the player re-sign the card.



Yeah, there's no downside to this...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 12:10:57 PM »
That's the first thing that popped into my mind JME, unless Harrington just puts the ball down totally random (as Shivas would like us all to do...) there is no way not to recognize a difference.

Isn't Harrington a leading cheater-line pratctitioner?

When you find a Tour Pro who does anything randomly,let me know.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 12:12:42 PM »
Reasonable person response:

His card was accurate to the best of his knowledge at the time he signed it.  If the tour is going to allow some rules reject to call in and affect a player's score then they should re-open the card, assess the penalty and have the player re-sign the card.



Yeah, there's no downside to this...

A well articulated response laying out some well reasoned and persuasive counterpoints. :) ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 12:19:56 PM »


Reasonable person response:

His card was accurate to the best of his knowledge at the time he signed it.  If the tour is going to allow some rules reject to call in and affect a player's score then they should re-open the card, assess the penalty and have the player re-sign the card.



I promise I'm trying not to be a prick,I just can't think of another way to phrase this question.

Have you ever played or officiated tournament golf?

I ask because there seems to be a pretty good split of opinion (on this DG and elsewhere).I always wonder whether those who argue for rules change have ever really been in a "rules" situation.

Again,I'm just curious but I understand that my question seems snarky.


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 12:20:43 PM »
Pure speculation,but I'd bet he did know it.

If he knew it ... why wouldn't he have remedied it, then and there?

As far as I can see, there's absolutely no basis for suspecting that he knew the ball had moved -- and any such speculation is quite impure.

Am I wrong?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 12:26:33 PM »
Pure speculation,but I'd bet he did know it.

If he knew it ... why wouldn't he have remedied it, then and there?

As far as I can see, there's absolutely no basis for suspecting that he knew the ball had moved -- and any such speculation is quite impure.

Am I wrong?

My speculation was just based on my personal experience being around some of those guys.I have never once seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned--because they position it the same way each and every time.


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 12:31:20 PM »
Dan King for Rules official.

"Don't touch the ball until it is in the hole!"
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 12:34:25 PM »

My speculation was just based on my personal experience being around some of those guys.I have never once seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned--because they position it the same way each and every time.


"I have never once seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned."

That almost defies analysis -- but I'll settle for simply this:

How would you know that you'd seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned?

And this: I know this is a mere discussion group -- but you're suggesting that Padraig Harrington broke the Rules of Golf purposely, when he had absolutely nothing to gain in doing so.

And even though this is a mere discussion group: 'tain't fittin'.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 12:36:21 PM »

My speculation was just based on my personal experience being around some of those guys.I have never once seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned--because they position it the same way each and every time.


"I have never once seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned."

That almost defies analysis -- but I'll settle for simply this:

How would you know that you'd seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned?

And this: I know this is a mere discussion group -- but you're suggesting that Padraig Harrington broke the Rules of Golf purposely, when he had absolutely nothing to gain in doing so.

And even though this is a mere discussion group: 'tain't fittin'.



Assuming he noticed,he did have something to gain.He'd already picked up his marker.At that point,he can either call the penalty on himself or just ignore it and hope nobody else noticed.

Just curious,what do you think they're doing when they spend so much time behind their ball before picking up their marker?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 12:43:43 PM by JMEvensky »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 12:39:53 PM »
Has anyone seen the video in question? It's hard for me to imagine that he didn't know the ball moved, if the officials were confident concluding it did move. Harrington did admit to touching the ball, he said he didn't think it moved.

Kind of reminds me of an incident DLIII relays in Every Shot.... He mentions that he once called a penalty on himself because he wasn't certain if he correctly replaced his ball when someone else asked him to move it out of his putting line. Not that he DIDN'T replace it, just that he couldn't remember one way or the other. Since he was in doubt, he called the penalty on himself and didn't play the weekend.

It also reminds me of last year at HH, where Brian Davis (I think, someone correct me if I have the wrong player), called a penalty on himself in the playoff. Others have suggested that no one would have seen it. Yet he called it.

Yep, by all means, let's make it easier for folks to do the wrong thing... That will certainly help us retain the honor in golf.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 12:44:31 PM »
No one cheats like a has been.  I know a bunch of cheaters and to a man they are people in desperate need of approval.  If anyone has a reason to cheat in this point of their career it would be Harrington.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 12:48:34 PM »
No one cheats like a has been.  I know a bunch of cheaters and to a man they are people in desperate need of approval.  If anyone has a reason to cheat in this point of their career it would be Harrington.
Except that he was in the middle of shooting 65.  A ludicrous post but at least less offensive than your post about tipping.  Old habits die hard.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 12:50:13 PM »
The rules official quoted in the story said that Harrington did not know that the ball moved.  Now, maybe the rules official made that up, or maybe Harrington lied to the rules official.  But I think it is only fair to give someone who, by all accounts, is one of the real gentlemen of the game the benefit of the doubt here.

A common attitude seems to be that, because the threat of DQ encourages players to do the right thing by calling penalties on themselves when they know they may have broken the rules.  I agree completely that is a benefit, but that can't be the only goal of the rules here.  Fairness has to play a part too, especially when it's entirely possible to have a situation where a player does not realize he has taken an action that might violate a rule (whether or not you think that's what happened here).

Would anyone defend a fellow competitor who, after seeing Harrington's ball move, didn't say anything until after Harrington signed his scorecard so that he would get DQ'ed instead of just penalized?  After all, having fellow competitors do that would encourage players to do the right thing by calling the penalty on themselves.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 12:51:14 PM »

My speculation was just based on my personal experience being around some of those guys.I have never once seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned--because they position it the same way each and every time.


"I have never once seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned."

That almost defies analysis -- but I'll settle for simply this:

How would you know that you'd seen a Tour Pro look down at a putt without knowing EXACTLY how his ball was positioned?

And this: I know this is a mere discussion group -- but you're suggesting that Padraig Harrington broke the Rules of Golf purposely, when he had absolutely nothing to gain in doing so.

And even though this is a mere discussion group: 'tain't fittin'.



Assuming he noticed,he did have something to gain.He'd already picked up his marker.At that point,he can either call the penalty on himself or just ignore it and hope nobody else noticed.

Just curious,what do you think they're doing when they spend so much time behind their ball before picking up their marker?

From europeantour.com:

Andy McFee, European Tour Senior Referee, explained the ruling in a statement which said: “Harrington was disqualified for a breach of Rule 6-6d for signing for the wrong score on hole seven during the first round of the Abu Dhabi HSBC Golf Championship.

“On the seventh green, Padraig replaced his ball and as he began to remove his marker, his finger was seen on TV to brush the ball, causing it to move. The movement of the ball during the specific act of replacing it is covered by Rule 20-3a and there is no penalty to this movement, but the ball must be replaced.

“Because the ball was not replaced, there is a breach of Rule 20-3a, the penalty for which is two strokes. As this penalty was not included in the score for hole seven, Padraig was disqualified for a breach of Rule 6-6d, signing for the wrong score on hole seven.”

Harrington said: "I was aware I hit the ball picking up my coin. I looked down at the time and was pretty sure it had just oscillated and had not moved, so I continued on.

"In slow motion it's pretty clear the ball has moved three dimples forward and it's come back maybe a dimple and a half.

"At the end of the day that's good enough, but I wouldn't have done anything differently yesterday - there was nothing I could do about it at that moment in time.

"If I'd called a referee over it would have been pointless because if he'd asked me where my ball was I'd have said it was there. As far as I was concerned it didn't move."

He added: “I felt I knew the rule at the time.  I applied the rule as best I could in the situation but looking at the video today, it's pretty clear that it, you know, it's a hundred per cent looks like the ball has moved forward and not far enough back, and that's the issue at heart.
 
“I do believe that the rule is correct in terms of we have to be very precise about how we mark our golf balls and position the golf ball is in, and I do agree, I do fully agree, even though it's only a dimple and a half, in the end of the day, you know, somebody down the road could use five dimples as being okay and the next guy would use an inch as being okay.

“So I think it's fair enough that the penalty is there on the face of it.”
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 12:54:28 PM »
No one cheats like a has been.  I know a bunch of cheaters and to a man they are people in desperate need of approval.  If anyone has a reason to cheat in this point of their career it would be Harrington.
Except that he was in the middle of shooting 65.  A ludicrous post but at least less offensive than your post about tipping.  Old habits die hard.

So did this happen on the 18th hole?  Maybe his cheater guilt rallied him like the people who say adultery is good for your marriage.

What is offensive about tipping both poor and excellent service equally well?  It must be the union contractor in me.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 12:54:52 PM »
1. Golf is a game policed by it's participants. if the player stated he did not see the ball move, this is his belief.  if he saw it move, he would have taken the appropriate action.
2. The "call in the infraction" penalty must be amended.  Rules broekn observed on the course should carry the penalites currently in effect per the Rules of the game.  Rules "violations" called in by viewers should be a 2 stoke penalty in medal play and loss of hole in match play with no DQ.

How many of us disagree with video of infractions called or not called in sporting events?  Offsides and penalites called in the box in football are notoriously subjective and inaccurate.

Andrew Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington DQ'd at Abu Dhabi
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 12:59:28 PM »
JMEvensky said - He'd already picked up his marker.At that point,he can either call the penalty on himself or just ignore it and hope nobody else noticed.

JM - Actually that's incorrect. His ball moved as he removed his marker. R20-3a allows him to replace the ball without penalty.

Andrew

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