News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 11:56:15 PM »
Jeff I was writing at 0200hrs and my English is dodgy at the best of times.
Cave Nil Vino

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 12:19:06 AM »
I think the cost of lessons is something that needs to be addressed.

My club's pros charge AU$55/30mins (about 37 pounds for the UK fellas).

While I'd love to improve my game, I'd want to be having a lesson every 2-3 weeks and that just isn't an investment I could make. At $30 - still a dollar a minute! - I'd sign up today for a series of lessons.

Scott,

$30 for half an hour is less than the charge out rate for most plumbers or electricians these days. 

I am not sure you could expect a golf pro to charge less than that if they have sufficient demand for their services at $100 a hour. 

I would suggest that if you are getting lessons from the pro at your club, you do not need them every 2-3 weeks.  Once you are under their tutelage, most are very good at giving you a 5-10 minute check up every week or two for free, to make sure you are on the right track between lessons. 

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 12:30:01 AM »
Fair enough, David. I've never taken lessons, so I don't really know how the relationship works.

And of course if they are doing well at $110/hr, then good on them, they needn't cut their price on account of me!!

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2011, 12:42:55 AM »
Fair enough, David. I've never taken lessons, so I don't really know how the relationship work
Pretty good swing then.

I think lessons are good value if you have a good teacher who is on your wavelength.

My current batting average is roughly .500 tough,  which is the biggest cost and can be awkward if you are getting lessons from your club pro and then decide you want to go elsewhere, or to his assistant, etc. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2011, 12:48:20 AM »
A good one is worth his weight in gold and really keeps the place running and the membership/regulars happy and wanting to return. I define a good pro as a people person who has a deep rooted love of the game, the personalities surrounding it and an understanding of what it takes to play.

Well said, Brian.  I'm fortunate to work for one of the legends in the business and although he doesn't play as much as he used to, and never taught a ton, he is a huge part of what makes the club so great.  This is simply because above all else he is primarily responsible for ensuring that every member or guest who walks through our door has a fantastic time.  

That means knowing the right joke to tell to the right person, who demands you call them by the first name and who secretly loves being called by their professional title, how to put together a casual but well-run and fun event, when to offer a quick 30 second lesson, and so on, and so on.  Ultimately, he knows the members and guests backwards and forwards, knows the club like the back of his hand, and knows how to make each one of them happy.  And he does so and has for over 30 years.

The golf course is one of the best in the world, but members bringing guests go out of their way to make sure everyone meets our head professional, because he is a big part of the experience of time spent at our club.  He is *their* golf guy: the one you talk to about the last round (and listens intently to every last detail), the one you get advice from for where to play on a trip, the one you chat with about the last Tour event and make $1.00 bets for the upcoming major, the one you talk to about the history and magic of the game, and the one who guides and makes as enjoyable as possible your path in it.

The issue we often find with clubs in the US these days is that many of them are so focused on the bottom line that they forget what a big part of the experience a great golf professional can be.  For that reason, club pros last on average around 4 or 5 years at any given job, and in walking on eggshells for such a small period of time, they never get the chance to develop the kind of relationship with the facility and its members/customers/guests/staff that can really pay off for everyone in the long run.

The spiral continues, and so sadly not many know what a great golf professional can add because few have ever gotten the chance to experience the services of a top-notch example.  As a result, they figure, why in the world do we need a golf professional?  He or she is just another mouth to feed, unless he/she can also manage the dining room, maintenance staff, and office administration.  The guys who do all that cannot do what ours does because they can never be found - they're at a meeting, attending a trade show, or stuck in an office doing paperwork.

Golf professionals are not just the guys who sell you a shirt, re-grip your driver, and take your tee time - they can and should do so much more.  The reason I'm in the business is because I've learned from guys like him that if you do the job well and find the right club or facility, you can truly enjoy what you do and make a valuable contribution to the game.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2011, 01:27:39 AM »
Excellent post, Brian.

As in any other sphere of business, the position of club pro offers opportunities to the guy appointed. Some will take advantage of every opportunity, build a good business for himself, and make himself indispensable to his club and its members, while others will do little but sit behind a counter selling golf balls and taking green-fees.

The role has clearly changed enormously already over the years. A century ago the average club pro was frequently little more than a serf, living in an often squalid tied cottage and forbidden from entering the clubhouse. Then I clearly remember visiting the pro's shop at my grandfather's club as a child in the 1960's and being captivated watching the guy fashion wooden club heads in his workshop.

I'm sure there is a role for the club pro in the future; each pro just has to find that role at his particular club. The pro at my place is a case in point. When I first made an enquiry to the club via email about membership it was the pro who replied and then phoned me to discuss options and to invite me down for a look round and a chat. He then offered me a round and a free lesson. This, rather than the terse response from the 'office' typical of other clubs I made enquiry of played a big part in my choice of club to join. None of this is in his job spec but of course, it was a shrewd investment of time on the part of the pro - potentially he now has a new customer for life!

Of course, so much depends on the club and its own potential. The guy I mentioned touting for work on the range in my OP was the pro for many years at a club which has had the reputation of being close to bankruptcy for as long as I can remember - certainly since the 1970's.

It kinda begs the question; is the bloke out of work because the club is failing, or has his presence as pro for the last quarter century been part of the reason why the club is not a raging success?




Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2011, 04:20:07 AM »
A lot depends on how the pro does his job.  I belong to two clubs.  One doesn't have a pro and hasn't for some years.  There's a bit of an arrangement with a teaching pro at an adjacent muni but no pro-shop at the course.  The bar sells balls, gloves etc.  This club is probably the "smartest" club in the county.

At Crail, the pro is an intimate part of the club, being involved in organising competitions and really knowing the members.  Perhaps the most impressive pro I know, though, is Ian Muir at Elie.  He has really driven the junior section of that club, has produced international golfers (including a Curtis Cup player) and has an absolutely thriving business. 
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2011, 05:13:09 AM »
I think the UK pro is very different to a US pro. Typical UK clubs dont have lots of staff. Typical UK clubs dont pay big wages to the pro either, perhaps £10,000.
The problem really lies in that the pro cant supplement his wages as well as he used to. Planner sales might have been £2-3000 per year, perhaps they are halved now as many have GPS. I think we agree there is no money in hardware, there is not so much in club repair income anymore. I do think pro's charge too much for lessons and a tenner for a quick look is more ideal. Some clubs will as Mark points out have no need for a pro and others will integrate the pro's job with the meet and greet and look after of the members.
Largely the future has become bleaker for UK pro's because they cant make enough money from selling goods. If they require a larger retainer to balance their incomes they run the risk of putting themselves up for trial. In difficult times that might mean the axe.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Giles Payne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2011, 05:16:29 AM »
We have a very good pro at Huntercombe along with two assistants. They have a great teaching reputation within the club and each year there are matches against he captain and pro or vice captain and assistant pro. One thing that they do particularly well is club making and fitting which has gone down well with the membership. Overall the relationship with the membership is very happy and engaged and definately adds to the atmosphere within the club. We do pay a retainer but feel that it is value for money and adds to the club. This is a marked change from when I originally joined the club and there was a curmudgeonly old pro who begrudged you disturbing him when you worked into the pro shop.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2011, 09:02:10 AM »
Historically, where have most club pros in the UK come from? have they mostly been guys who have tried to make a career from playing but not quite cut it, so turned to being a club pro?

I ask this because my brother used to be a pro. I say used to be, he still keeps his PGA membership (just in case) but has turned to a 9 to 5 job working in recruitment, mainly as he now has a wife and kid to look after.

He became an assistant pro when he was off 3 I think, and worked in the shop, while playing on the local circuit. He very quickly improved his game, but realised he was never going to make it on tour so concentrated on being a teacher, salesman, shop keeper and the clubs face for golf, generally a likeable people person. However, once fully qualified, when he started to look at getting an appointment as a clubs head professional, most clubs liked his CV but wanted someone older. In the end he has pretty much turned his back on golf as even a teaching pro or a qualified pro under the head pro doesn't make a steady enough income.

Meanwhile, friends of his, who also turned pro have tried their best to make it on the various tours. One managing to win the Europro order of merit, but then really struggle on the Challenge and main tours, others all generally struggled with the cost of travel etc. This has meant that when they have realised they can't make it on tour they are so fed up with golf that becoming a club pro just isn't on the agenda. At the same time my brother fancied being a club pro as a career but no one seemed willing to give the position to someone under 30.

Personally, I think a really good pro is an integral part of a really good club, but I see more and more clubs that seem to be trying to get by without one? So its not just a question of what can the current pros do to keep their place in the golf club, but also where will the next generation come from?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2011, 04:04:42 PM »
While i am only an overseas member at Westward Ho! I must say that the head pro is very proactive and does a wonderful job. He has taken the time to sort out a swing problem I was having while in the pro shop. He runs a very extensive and comprehensive junior program. From what I see it is one of the better programs in the southwest.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:50:43 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2011, 04:16:34 PM »
Tommy - I think the whole meet and greet and look after the members is a great thing, its hard to quantify its monetary worth and can easily get zeroed when some people do the maths.... if that makes sense. If its the same pro (from the mid 80's) he gave me free putting tip that I have always remembered.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2011, 10:57:13 PM »
The pro at Westward Ho! is Ian parker.  He came to WHo! from Prestwick St. Nicholas.  I think it is less ten years ago that he joined the staff.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2011, 10:36:46 AM »
I know this is sort of an off topic question, but I feel like this is a good thread to ask it on. 

I am an assistant golf professional trying to work his was up through the PGA program.  In the past couple years I have seen the job market shrink consideriably, which makes pros accept lower paying jobs just to have a steady income.  Many clubs are giving up on the whole golf pro scenerio, or are just giving very low salaries knowing that someone will come along and accept it. 

I love being a golf pro, BUT at the same time I always look out at the course thinking I would love to be a superintendent.  My uncle is one and have been around it my whole childhood.  I have worked briefly on maintence and have thouroughly enjoyed my time.

So the question is, which career is better to pursue right now. 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2011, 11:19:46 AM »
PFer - I started off turning pro in 1976 and basically worked in the shop, taught a bit, I was never a good enough player and I enjoyed the maintenance side. My pro/ boss had designed a few courses and I ended up working with him on the routings, mainly in Germany. I shifted over to construction and maintenance and ended up being a head greenkeeper before I crossed full time into design. Working in golf is very addictive, its hard to advise what route you should take, its totally your call. I never wanted to teach or sale sweaters and clothing but some do. Maybe you should get some education on the maintaince side and perhaps your route could be doing both.
I think this site btw is a great educator.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2011, 12:24:24 PM »
Kyle Harris made that very transition a few years ago.  He would be a good brain to pick.

It's no secret that many PGA professionals leave the golf pro life behind every year, but I wonder how many of them stay in the industry in some other capacity (course maintenance, design, sales rep, etc) versus leave golf entirely.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2011, 12:26:06 PM »
The head geenkeeper at Deal used to be a pro as well. If you want job security clubs cannot survive without maintenance staff, it may not be the same but they can survive without a professional.
Cave Nil Vino

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2011, 12:53:38 PM »
The man who taught me the game would jump on a mower, fix a stiff drink and tell a great story.  The educated turf head system is a ponzi scheme built to fail as cheap labor waits across the river.  I'd stick with the pro career and learn how to mow, fix a stiff drink and tell a great story.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2011, 08:48:18 AM »
Wilmslow had just three pros in the entire 20th century. The last of those, John Nowicki, was professional there for 40+ years. He retired a few months ago (and is now a life member) at the same time as the secretary/manager (who is also now a life member). It will be nice to see them both as part of the club for they were well liked.

The whole set up of the club, run of course by the various committees of members, is changing in a very positive way. We now have a new and very pro-active club manager and a new young head professional from Gleneagles. He's been here a couple of months and has made a big impact already. For a month of that time the course has been under snow, but he's set up chipping and putting lessons in the clubhouse and even brought in a Wii for people to challenge each other in silly games, ensuring that the steward and staff get some very needed custom. He's also appointed, for the first time at this club, an assistant. Suddenly they are able to offer sports psychology, fitness for golf training, and lots of coaching for juniors. The ladies' section needs more members and they've introduced a 6-month trial membership system, including mentoring and free lessons. What a good time to join a club as a member of staff just as all sorts of initiatives are being set in motion, and being able to make a positive contribution to that change.

There's a new professional at Delamere Forest. Some of you will remember Elliss Jones who made the change the pther way, from greenkeeping to professional. He's now retired but you'll see him around the club and is always willing to entertain visitors - as long as they keep him well refreshed. The new professional is Martin Brown, who joined from Fulford. They all said he was mad to leave a big and very active club for a slightly remote club in the country with a full male membership of only 250. But the members have given him no cause to regret the move. They support him and his wife vigorously and he is an essential part of another club which is changing rapidly and successfully.

What is interesting, however, is, that despite the changes, neither club has lost that individual quality that informs the core of its ethos.

I think you'd find the same at Alwoodley which was dragged straight from the 19th century to the 21st century, completely missing out on the 20th century, around the time of the millennium. John Green, the pro there, is seen as a true asset to the club and he now sits on various key committees. His opinion and expertise is valued.

As to professionals becoming greenkeepers, have a look at the work of Jeff Pinsent, professional at Sandy Lodge. His proposed alterations and partial restorations to the course in and around 2000 got the nod ahead of schemes submitted by quite high-profile golf desihn companies.

What I deduce from this is that if, as a club, you appoint a good professional he or she should have a great deal to contribute to the success and day-to-day life of, first, the club and its members and, also, visitors. Not to take advantage of that would be stupid. Co-opt him or her onto the green and handicap committees. As necessary co-opt them onto sub-committees, with equal standing. At Sherwood Forest some years ago Ken Hall, the professional, also became secretary. That arrangement ran successfully for some years.

In the public/pay-and-play sector you are often appointing a professional to run the whole enterprise. Of my local establishments of that kind Styal has the highest profile, not just because it produced David Horsey, Walker Cupper and now a winner on tour. Largely it's because two of the professionals own it and work very hard to ensure an income. There is always a lot going on and, though I would not recommend a round on either of their two courses, that includes attracting functions and the like to their log-cabin clubhouse. If you like teaching you'll get a lot more of it at a set up which has a driving range. First timers notice people having lessons in adjacent bays and soon sign up for group lessons or one-to-one. And if beginners fancy memberships, there are lots of different levels to suit every type of player and the commitments on their time.


 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 09:11:30 AM »
Whilst there are many plus points of having a golf professional the problem that MAY exist is that a club looks at the monies in and the monies out and the trend of less members, resignations, less income as they are forced to drop the prices, do deals etc.

1 member of staff is often £50 on the membership fee for a small club.

Its a horrible situation to have to lose staff, but sometimes its the only way to ensure survival or at least try to prevent the worst.

Its a horrible UK economic situation (though a bit better than it was a year ago perhaps).

I guess the secret is for the pro to be pro active and as many have said make himself wanted and worth the money.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2011, 09:21:14 AM »
Seems to me the main job qualifications are being gregarious with the membership and a good instructor.  I've seen guys who are neither and they wind up being dead weight...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2011, 11:51:18 AM »
Mark Rowlinson -

Thanks for an excellent and informative post. Glad to hear the right people can make a positive impact.

DT

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2011, 02:34:28 PM »
Whilst there are many plus points of having a golf professional the problem that MAY exist is that a club looks at the monies in and the monies out and the trend of less members, resignations, less income as they are forced to drop the prices, do deals etc.

1 member of staff is often £50 on the membership fee for a small club.

Its a horrible situation to have to lose staff, but sometimes its the only way to ensure survival or at least try to prevent the worst.

Its a horrible UK economic situation (though a bit better than it was a year ago perhaps).

I guess the secret is for the pro to be pro active and as many have said make himself wanted and worth the money.


Adrian,

whilst what you are saying maybe true it still does not look at the reality of the situation. If you get rid of the pro who is going to collect green fees all day every day, who gives out the information on course condition, who collects the entry fees for comps, who looks after the smooth flow of players from the first tee.

You will still have to employ someone to do these things and many others and this from early morning till late evening 7 days a week. Or will you go for an honesty box. That works in the Highlands but would it in Manchester for example? I think not.

Jon

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2011, 03:17:23 AM »
I was thinking the same thing myself.

As I understand it the retainer paid to the average club pro is in the order of £10,000 - £15,0000. For the hours that the pro is expected to provide the services for the club outlined by Jon above, this works out at rather less than the statutory minimum wage.

Just how does a club dispensing with its pro expect to save money? By asking seniors to volunteer their time to man the shop in rota?

It seems to me that a good pro actually provides excellent value for money for his club.


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Club Pros in the UK
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2011, 04:13:17 AM »
Jon & Duncun - These are the points that ofcourse essential in making the decsion. Some pro's are worth their weight in gold.

I think if he did not do these thngs then it would be a no brainer. £10- £15,000 plus no rent, rates, often no electric or water, he keeps shop proceeds, rents on the trolleys, sometimes a bit of drink and chocolate, all his teaching.....It is not a case of minimum wage at all. In a small club put some of those things back into the bar and it will boost profits.

I am not saying busy clubs will dump their pro, very small clubs often do not have one. I am saying that there is a mid point where they do or they dont and that will shift as the economic troubles hit harder.

A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back