[Mark Pearce]

Mac:

I chuckle when I hear of noise from the cheap seats that says "major flaws" -- but no name is discussed and no specifics provided.

Mac, nothing against you -- but often times such statements are really stretching the far-fetched points they seek to make.

By the way -- have you ever played the course ?

Matt,

I thought Mac's post was an excellent conversation starter.  You are free to launch a coherent argument against it if you want, instead of asking sill quesitons like "have you played the course?"

Quite.  You also have to wonder why Mr Ward feels it neccessary to answer a perfectly sensible and civil question with a derogatory reference to "the cheap seats".

[jonathan_becker]

Kyle,

How firm and fast did it actually play?  

When I played it the temps were close to 100 at the beginning of May, the ground was firm and dry, but every tee ball I hit backed up a yard.  It was like the turf wanted to let the ball bounce forward but it never did.  Maybe I caught the place on an off day.

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Sad to say but plenty of places in the Valley area often overwater to the point of balls sticking when landing. The fear is burnout and while that's understandable it does limit the design elasticity as originally intended. Plenty of other courses in the southwest USA do this as well.

If you want a solid public option in the immediate area that is nearly always firm and fast -- try Desert Willow and play Firecliff Course.

Mark:

Read what I said carefully.

I never pinpointed Mac as the culprit -- just those "no names" who float invisibly concerning their comments.

It's so e-z in today's internet world for people to throw comments without attribution.

When people as Mac outlined say "major flaws" -- I don't see "major flaws" -- tweaking things in spots yes. But the overall terrain provides for a wonderful excitement of both the visual and golf joined at the hip for the entire round.

David:

I wanted to know if Mac has played the course -- just a simple question -- not a federal case as you seem
to believe.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle,

How firm and fast did it actually play?  

When I played it the temps were close to 100 at the beginning of May, the ground was firm and dry, but every tee ball I hit backed up a yard.  It was like the turf wanted to let the ball bounce forward but it never did.  Maybe I caught the place on an off day.

It was less firm this year than my first visit a year ago. The ground will check the ball, especially if you drive into an upslope. But it it still possible to putt from 10 or more yards off of the greens, and the downhill tee shots while scoot upon impact.

I would guess the course plays much softer when the valley heats up and greenskeepers are forced to saturate the roots every morning.

[Kyle Henderson]

Fantastic pics Kyle - tough question, I know, but where would you rank Stone Eagle in relation to other Californian courses?

Ah, the ranking question...

I'd put in in the same relative ballpark as Rustic Canyon and maybe a touch better than Spyglass Hill overall from a beard-pulling perspective. It certainly provides a better experience than those two courses in terms the death of other golfers and nearly flawless course conditions.

If you were thinking of taking a day trip from L.A. during your California adventure, Stone Eagle is certainly worthy. That qulifies it for a Doak 7 or slightly better, by my reckoning.

[Mike Benham]

Someone will have to explain to me how Stone Eagle doesn't get more attention from the national mags.

If I recall, and I think it was discussed on GCA, that at one-time, Stone Eagle had the policy of not allowing access to raters. 

[Will MacEwen]

Fantastic pics Kyle - tough question, I know, but where would you rank Stone Eagle in relation to other Californian courses?

Ah, the ranking question...

I'd put in in the same relative ballpark as Rustic Canyon and maybe a touch better than Spyglass Hill overall from a beard-pulling perspective. It certainly provides a better experience than those two courses in terms the death of other golfers and nearly flawless course conditions.

If you were thinking of taking a day trip from L.A. during your California adventure, Stone Eagle is certainly worthy. That qulifies it for a Doak 7 or slightly better, by my reckoning.

Does the death of other golfers speed up play?

[Kyle Henderson]

Fantastic pics Kyle - tough question, I know, but where would you rank Stone Eagle in relation to other Californian courses?

Ah, the ranking question...

I'd put in in the same relative ballpark as Rustic Canyon and maybe a touch better than Spyglass Hill overall from a beard-pulling perspective. It certainly provides a better experience than those two courses in terms the death of other golfers and nearly flawless course conditions.

If you were thinking of taking a day trip from L.A. during your California adventure, Stone Eagle is certainly worthy. That qulifies it for a Doak 7 or slightly better, by my reckoning.

Does the death of other golfers speed up play?

Stone Eagle lends itself to quick rounds when I'm not pausing to take photos.  

My only round at Spyglass was painfully slow -- granted it was a drastically discounted afternoon tee time.

I've played Rustic in 3.5 hours as a part of a walking foursome, and in 5 hours during a GCA event...

[Anthony Fowler]

Kyle, thank you for the beautiful pictures and exciting thread.  The 6th is one of my favorite par 4's anywhere.  Is your picture from the back tee? I seem to remember hitting my tee shot at more of an angle, but I could be wrong.

I chuckled when I read that 17 was the last birdie opportunity.  In my twosome, we had failed to make a single birdie all day (despite a lot of chances on those devilish greens) when we got to the back tee on 18.  Our caddie told us that he had never seen anyone birdie the hole.  Somehow, we were inspired, because we both had tap-in birdies with a back-left hole location.  We both hit the best driver-4 iron and driver-5 iron possible, and the caddy was stunned after our less-than-stellar play on the previous 17 holes.  I hope I get a chance to play there again, but I might just skip 18 and forever insist that it's an easy hole.

As far ask rankings go, I agree with Matt in his surprise.  Stone Eagle isn't even on Golfweek's top 100 modern list and according to Golf Digest it is 25th(?!) in California behind The Quarry, The Preserve, Porcupine Creek, The Bridges, Sherwood, The Madison, Tradition, Shady Canyon, Lahontan, The Reserve, Spanish Bay, and Bighorn.  Clearly the raters are looking for different things that I am in a golf course.  If people see major flaws at Stone Eagle, I can't relate in the least.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle, thank you for the beautiful pictures and exciting thread.  The 6th is one of my favorite par 4's anywhere.  Is your picture from the back tee? I seem to remember hitting my tee shot at more of an angle, but I could be wrong.

I chuckled when I read that 17 was the last birdie opportunity.  In my twosome, we had failed to make a single birdie all day (despite a lot of chances on those devilish greens) when we got to the back tee on 18.  Our caddie told us that he had never seen anyone birdie the hole.  Somehow, we were inspired, because we both had tap-in birdies with a back-left hole location.  We both hit the best driver-4 iron and driver-5 iron possible, and the caddy was stunned after our less-than-stellar play on the previous 17 holes.  I hope I get a chance to play there again, but I might just skip 18 and forever insist that it's an easy hole.

As far ask rankings go, I agree with Matt in his surprise.  Stone Eagle isn't even on Golfweek's top 100 modern list and according to Golf Digest it is 25th(?!) in California behind The Quarry, The Preserve, Porcupine Creek, The Bridges, Sherwood, The Madison, Tradition, Shady Canyon, Lahontan, The Reserve, Spanish Bay, and Bighorn.  Clearly the raters are looking for different things that I am in a golf course.  If people see major flaws at Stone Eagle, I can't relate in the least.

Wow. Birdies are possible at the 18th, but rarely to a back/left pin (in my estimation). Kudos!

I have not played most of the other courses you mentioned, but I would definitely rank Stone Eagle above Sherwood and Spanish Bay. 

[Tom_Doak]

I understand the course is not for everybody.  It's a VERY hilly site, and with that came trade-offs on walkability.  Building 18 flat greens would have been next to impossible.  And if you don't like playing uphill and downhill and sidehill, you are not going to like it much, because that is the essential challenge of the course ... you have to take an odd stance and an elevation change into account on every approach shot.

But, "major flaws" implies that there are holes where we did something that doesn't work, and honestly, I think that Stone Eagle may be the best work we have ever done, taking into account the complexity of the site.  It was so difficult to take things apart and put them back together [i.e., crush rock for topsoil] while staying within the lines and not disturbing the surrounding rock features and desert -- and it was maybe the hardest job ever to hide the cart paths from looking awful, because in certain places you can see across almost the entire site, and we didn't want the paths to be noticed.  And they aren't.

Mac, this is one course where I don't really care what the rankings are.  It is one of the most beautiful places in the world to spend a day with golf clubs, and it is a must-play just for that reason alone.  And if you find any flaws, please do share them.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

You might be surprised to know that raters can still get on places even if not "officially" invitved.

Anthony:

I've played a fairly comprehensive listing of CA courses and would list my personal top 25 for discussion purposes if that would help spur debate in regards to Stone Eagle.

Tom D:

Agree w you -- major flaws says big time problems. If anything -- your work there was able to overcome a number of issues fromt he get-go.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

I'd love to see your CA top 25.  I'm sure it would spur a lot of discussion, although perhaps beyond Stone Eagle.  Maybe a separate thread?

[Anthony Fowler]

Matt, I would love to see that as well.  In my view, Stone Eagle is in the same class as (if not above) Pasatiempo, MPCC, and Torrey, which should easily put it on the Golfweek and Golf Magazine lists.  Also, if you've played MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, and Meadow Club post-renovations, I'd love to see how you would rank those against the cream of the crop in CA.

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony / Jud:

Will start another thread -- however, my 25 list would be divided into groupings of five (5).

I don't believe you can have a specific #7 or #17 course -- the groupings works better.

I have also not played MPCC / Shore, Cal and Meadow Clubs since their renovations.

In regards to Stone Eagle -- hard for me to see how it can't be a top 20 CA pick. Where specifically ?

Well, I can start the overall CA ratings listing I mentioned and see what others think.

[Kyle Henderson]

I understand the course is not for everybody.  It's a VERY hilly site, and with that came trade-offs on walkability.  Building 18 flat greens would have been next to impossible.  And if you don't like playing uphill and downhill and sidehill, you are not going to like it much, because that is the essential challenge of the course ... you have to take an odd stance and an elevation change into account on every approach shot.

But, "major flaws" implies that there are holes where we did something that doesn't work, and honestly, I think that Stone Eagle may be the best work we have ever done, taking into account the complexity of the site.  It was so difficult to take things apart and put them back together [i.e., crush rock for topsoil] while staying within the lines and not disturbing the surrounding rock features and desert -- and it was maybe the hardest job ever to hide the cart paths from looking awful, because in certain places you can see across almost the entire site, and we didn't want the paths to be noticed.  And they aren't.

Mac, this is one course where I don't really care what the rankings are.  It is one of the most beautiful places in the world to spend a day with golf clubs, and it is a must-play just for that reason alone.  And if you find any flaws, please do share them.

Ageed. The cart paths were VERY tastefully done and the course flows with the land to an amazing degree while remaining playable on a severe property.

The course is flawed in minor ways that were virtually unavoidable given that this was never a parcel perfectly suited to golf a la Pac Dunes.

[Bill_McBride]

Fantastic pics Kyle - tough question, I know, but where would you rank Stone Eagle in relation to other Californian courses?

Ah, the ranking question...

I'd put in in the same relative ballpark as Rustic Canyon and maybe a touch better than Spyglass Hill overall from a beard-pulling perspective. It certainly provides a better experience than those two courses in terms the death of other golfers and nearly flawless course conditions.

If you were thinking of taking a day trip from L.A. during your California adventure, Stone Eagle is certainly worthy. That qulifies it for a Doak 7 or slightly better, by my reckoning.

Does the death of other golfers speed up play?

I would imagine the DEATH of other golfers would slow things down, as in the old joke...."Hit the ball and drag Fred."

Sorry, know it was a tyop, couldn't resist.

[Mac Plumart]

Good thread Kyle.  And thanks for the answers guys.  I look forward to checking this course out next time I'm out that way. 

[jkinney]

Kyle, thank you for the beautiful pictures and exciting thread.  The 6th is one of my favorite par 4's anywhere.  Is your picture from the back tee? I seem to remember hitting my tee shot at more of an angle, but I could be wrong.

I chuckled when I read that 17 was the last birdie opportunity.  In my twosome, we had failed to make a single birdie all day (despite a lot of chances on those devilish greens) when we got to the back tee on 18.  Our caddie told us that he had never seen anyone birdie the hole.  Somehow, we were inspired, because we both had tap-in birdies with a back-left hole location.  We both hit the best driver-4 iron and driver-5 iron possible, and the caddy was stunned after our less-than-stellar play on the previous 17 holes.  I hope I get a chance to play there again, but I might just skip 18 and forever insist that it's an easy hole.

As far ask rankings go, I agree with Matt in his surprise.  Stone Eagle isn't even on Golfweek's top 100 modern list and according to Golf Digest it is 25th(?!) in California behind The Quarry, The Preserve, Porcupine Creek, The Bridges, Sherwood, The Madison, Tradition, Shady Canyon, Lahontan, The Reserve, Spanish Bay, and Bighorn.  Clearly the raters are looking for different things that I am in a golf course.  If people see major flaws at Stone Eagle, I can't relate in the least.

Most of the opposition to SE that I've encountered has come from people defending flat desert courses - their home turf - and from people for whom the concept of SE is simply  " beyond their ken ", as the Scots say. Every serious golfer/student of course architecture I've brought to SE has fallen in love with it somewhere during their first round. Personally I get as much joy being on SE's ground as I do being on the ground of the Southampton greats, where I've played nany hundreds of rounds. But what do I know.......

[John Kirk]

But what do I know.......

Mr. Kinney,

There was a recurring chracter on Saturday Night Live, "Caveman Lawyer", played by Phil Hartman.  After long elaborate explanations, he always finished with:

"But what do I know, I'm just a caveman."

Really nice words from Tom Doak about his golf course.

Mac,

The course has a few shortcomings, limitations due to a severe site.  As both jkinney and Tom Doak have said, it is a lovely place to play golf and spend the day.  I expect Stone Eagle's reputation to grow in the coming years.

[mike_beene]

I don't know much ,but I do know that a man who slips and falls in the supermarket is entitled to two million dollars in actual damages and two million dollars in punitive damages.

[Dale Jackson]

Someone will have to explain to me how Stone Eagle doesn't get more attention from the national mags.

If I recall, and I think it was discussed on GCA, that at one-time, Stone Eagle had the policy of not allowing access to raters. 

Actually, the opposite is true.  When first opened Stone Eagle was quite accommodating to raters and remained so until the change in ownership.  The current practice is to still allow raters but they have implemented a green fee and mandatory caddie that together make for quite an expensive day.

I played the course for the first time prior to any ranking coming out and really loved the course.  I was truly shocked when it did not win "Best New" in Golf Digest.  I believe it is currently ranked #25 in California, which is puzzling to me as well.

I have played a lot of courses in the Coachella Valley and nothing, in my judgement, comes close to Stone Eagle.

[David_Elvins]

David:

I wanted to know if Mac has played the course -- just a simple question -- not a federal case as you seem
to believe.

Apologies Matt, I thought it was evident from his post that he hadn't and assumed your question was rhetorical. 

[Tom Yost]

Very nice Kyle.
Were you using a wide angle lens?
I ask because a wide angle will make the fairways look smaller from the tee.

I used the stock 55mm lens with a UV filter (mostly protect the lense).

Zoom lens right? 18-55 I'm guessing...

What is it with flickr, the exif data is stripped?  Sometimes it is cool to view the exif of a photo - you can see what camera, lens focal length, exposure settings, etc were used.

[Eric Smith]

Thank you Kyle. Your photo tours always deliver, as I'm stuffed full of desire to seek out the Stone Eagle.

This view is one I hadn't noticed before in other tours and to me is particularly sexy (in a dunes slut sort of way).

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