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Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011, 11:19:05 PM »
Scott,

That tee shot at 3 looks so much better for the clearing.Last time I saw it it was ridiculous - maybe there was only a 20 yard gap there.
That 3rd picture you have of the 3rd hole - there is a flattish area up there about 280 yards from the green.I looked at it during The Open there in 2009 and it would be a brilliant short and drivable par four from up there.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2011, 12:17:25 AM »
Is there a more controversial course than NSWGC within the World Top 50?
Probably a few more in the top 100.

As far as head scratchers go, having played the Clyde and Squirrel configuration at The Country Club several times, I''m mystified at how it ranks in front of courses like Olympic, Maidstone, and Morfontaine. Only the ghost of Francis Ouimet can explain that.

As far as continuity in design goes, it's far down the list of NSWGCs attractions, and drops even further after you've played there about 400-500 times. It's all about how well you handled the course and the elements that add so much challenge to different shots on different days.

One day, you can make a routine par from the back tee on 3 (about 25 yards behind where Scott took his photo) with a well struck 3 wood and a half 9 iron. The next day you can hit a driver and a 5 iron to the best of your abilities and not sniff the green. How would more harmony in the bunkering from hole to hole ever match up with the dynamic nature of shot values from day to day? In some ways it would defeat the purpose. They tried to add some challenge to the 18th with conventional architectural thinking (tighten the layup area with series of bunkers and moguls) and failed.

New South Wales is golf on edge of the wild. Pine Valley would have to import about a dozen boxes of Eastern Diamond Back rattlers just to measure up in that respect.

Next!

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2011, 12:22:35 AM »
Scott - This is killing me!!! I'm heartbroken to learn that the greens are going to be aerated and the course closed during my two days in Sydney after the Boomerang.  :'(  

I'm coming back to Sydney after my visit to New Zealand for one day before I return to the States. Maybe I can find someone to join me at NSW on my last day in country, Wed March 15. Fingers are officially crossed!!!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 12:25:15 AM »
Anthony,

Greater aesthetic/stylistic continuity wouldn't adversely affect the strength of the golf shots (which I agree are world class), would it?
What do you think of the new 18th, both in isolation and as a component of the course?

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2011, 01:17:24 AM »
Anthony,

Greater aesthetic/stylistic continuity wouldn't adversely affect the strength of the golf shots (which I agree are world class), would it?
What do you think of the new 18th, both in isolation and as a component of the course?
Funnily enough, the last time I was in Australia in 2008, I was out at the club with the president of the club, who is also a pretty good player (He made the NSWGC club championship final last year at the age of 58). He was so gung-ho about the changes on 18 that it was hard to deny his enthusiasm.

I snuck out at sundown and knocked a ball along the hole even though the new green was not open. The second shot was certainly different. On the previous version of the hole if you slightly pushed your second, as long as you didn't run under the trees between 10-18 or get a horrible lie in the rough, you had an easy looking third pitching into the green which was sloped towards you... The challenge was all in where you were aiming on the green and where you ended up. If you tried to finesse one into the front right pin location, you risked failing short and having to flop your next one over a 6ft bank fronting the green. If you went too far past, two putts from above the hole was no gimme.

If you could keep your second shot left you had a lot more margin for error in terms of going long or short on your third. You could aim your third 10 feet left of the hole and it would usually run a little short or long. If you pushed it a bit, you would have an uphill birdie putt.

That has now been taken away by the new mounds and bunkers on the right hand side of the fairway. Hit your second in there and you're just trying to manufacture a shot to get your third onto a green which no longer features the same slope leading away from the clubhouse. It is more benched into the hill and represents an entirely different set of challenges.

Even though the third shot at 18 was less intimidating than a second shot into 3 or 14 with a wedge or sand iron in hand, the challenge itself was similar yet more subtle.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 01:33:15 AM by Anthony Butler »
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Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2011, 04:09:21 PM »
It posesses more "weak" holes than many other courses I'd rate alongside it - the new 18th built in 2008 by Greg Norman's design firm is far poorer in my view than the hole it replaced and out of character with the rest of the course

Scott

What parts about it dont you like compared to the old hole ?

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2011, 09:28:25 PM »
Mostly I don't like the fact that it looks like it belongs on a different course thanks to the moguls, excessive bunkering and green shapes. I don't like the man-made shaping, the LHS drive bunkers which are more in the rough/on the range (not the one closest to the tee, but the other two) than in the hole and I think the shaping of the green complex is over the top.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2011, 10:49:32 PM »
Is it just me, or do I see some similarities between NSW and Bandon Dunes?

Michael Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2011, 05:51:16 AM »
Scott, did you see if the pro shop has any of the clubs 75th anniversary books left. It might be a good souvenir for those who are interested.

I didn't know such a book existed?

Mike,

There actually is a tee up near the area you are talking about. Between the RHS of the 9th fairway and the 8th green there is a tee for ladies that play off high handicaps. If my memory serves me correct it's about 250m, and it is a fantastically thrilling shot!

Scott,

I'm not a huge fan of the waste areas (when I'm in them!), but they are aesthetically pleasing and do provide interest to the holes. The thing I really don't like though is that pretty much every waste area is on the LHS of the hole. The 5th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th (partially) and the 18th are such examples.


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2011, 06:15:17 PM »
Michael,

The prevalence of LHS waste areas is likely tied to the amount of R-to-L tee shots the course features.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2011, 12:45:21 AM »
Mostly I don't like the fact that it looks like it belongs on a different course thanks to the moguls, excessive bunkering and green shapes. I don't like the man-made shaping, the LHS drive bunkers which are more in the rough/on the range (not the one closest to the tee, but the other two) than in the hole and I think the shaping of the green complex is over the top.

Cheers Scott - I pretty much concur with your thoughts. I can understand bunkering on the left to try and keep one away from the driving range but they are a bit over the top. I also agree that the shelves / shapes on the green are a bit excessive compared to the rest of the course. I'm not a huge fan of #18 and will be interested to hear Mark F thoughts after he plays it today.

Is it just me, or do I see some similarities between NSW and Bandon Dunes?

Carl,

In what ways ? There's more vegetation at NSW and it moves over much more severe land.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2011, 09:29:16 AM »
Mostly I don't like the fact that it looks like it belongs on a different course thanks to the moguls, excessive bunkering and green shapes. I don't like the man-made shaping, the LHS drive bunkers which are more in the rough/on the range (not the one closest to the tee, but the other two) than in the hole and I think the shaping of the green complex is over the top.

Cheers Scott - I pretty much concur with your thoughts. I can understand bunkering on the left to try and keep one away from the driving range but they are a bit over the top. I also agree that the shelves / shapes on the green are a bit excessive compared to the rest of the course. I'm not a huge fan of #18 and will be interested to hear Mark F thoughts after he plays it today.

Is it just me, or do I see some similarities between NSW and Bandon Dunes?

Carl,

In what ways ? There's more vegetation at NSW and it moves over much more severe land.


Some of the greens (and greenside bunkering) looked similar to me.  The way the 13th green at NSW and 4th green at Bandon sit also seem similar to me. 

Mark_F

Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2011, 01:28:10 AM »
Cheers Scott - I pretty much concur with your thoughts. I can understand bunkering on the left to try and keep one away from the driving range but they are a bit over the top. I also agree that the shelves / shapes on the green are a bit excessive compared to the rest of the course. I'm not a huge fan of #18 and will be interested to hear Mark F thoughts after he plays it today.

Kevin,

Yes indeed, this Mexican did venture North for only the second time in his life.  

NSW is a fairly expansive canvas for a golf course, but the 9th, 10th and 18th are unfortunately hemmed into a reasonably narrow strip of land.  All three holes would scarcely be one fairway at St Andrews Beach or Lost Farm. (insert emoticon that, like insert quote, doesn't want to insert here).

I didn't mind the first set of bunkers on the left, but felt the rest of them were over the top, since no other hole on the course has that many.   I didn't mind the left to right slopes that ran throughout the fairway to the green, as they provide some interesting shotmaking given the best line into the green is on the left.  

Looking at the green from above, it does appear to be out of proportion and shape with the rest of the greens, but it didn't appear so bad "on the ground".  Another example, I guess, of an architect wanting to impose themselves on a course instead of fitting in with what is there.

As for the rest of the course... I had an interesting day yesterday.  I was expecting to like The Lakes a lot, and NSW perhaps not so much, since some friends of mine from work refused to give me their opinion on the course for fear of clouding my judgement.

I actually found The Lakes to be quite dull and uninteresting, despite the presence of some well contoured greens and the savage beauty of the waste areas.

NSW was much better than I thought it would be.  As I commented to Scott in an email this morning (hope you don't mind Scott), the course isn't classically strategic in the sense of what the Sandbelt embodies, but there is plenty of strategy there depending upon the conditions and your own game and what you want to accomplish.

I also don't understand those who believe the course to be penal.  Although there are some obvious no go areas, there is on most courses, and I thought the fairways were plenty wide enough.  Many of them are wider than anything at Kingston Heath, and no one calls that course penal.   There are perhaps a waste bunker or two in the wrong spot, but even RM and KH aren't perfect in that regard of having hazards or features that aren't where they should be, or are perhaps a tad excessive.

I also don't quite get the argument made over the first three holes being terrible.  The bunkers on one don't really need to be there, but my objection to them would be more from a slow play perspective than otherwise.  They don't work in that classically strategic sense, but NSW is very much about control and precision in the conditions, so in that sense they are fine.  

I also didn't mind the second green at all.  It is possibly a little too wide and shallow to totally fit in, but there is enough room to the right, behind and in front to miss without getting into too much trouble.  

The third hole was a lot of fun.  Overhead perspectives of the hole make it look like something you would expect to see at some cheap public track as opposed to an exclusive golf club, but it played fine.  The shot up to the green is excellent, as is the green itself.

I know Andrew Summerell likes to test people's Architectural street cred with their opinions on the fourth hole.  I quite liked the fact that you could see everything from the tee, but once down in the landing zone you only had your memory to rely on, but, as a famous literary creation said some years back, "Memory... is what we have instead of a view". I thought it was ok, but might need to play it a few times more to get the gist of it.

Cresting the fifth for the first time actually wasn't the orgasmic experience I had been expecting, probably because I have seen it written about so often I was inured to it.  The size of the hill on the eighth was what astounded me the most, it was at least twice as high as I had been expecting. It played into a strong crosswind from the left, and I thought it was a pretty good hole.

Otherwise, I also quite liked all of the rest of the holes, with the exception of eighteen.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 03:46:41 AM by Mark Ferguson »

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2011, 09:49:17 AM »
Scott, did you see if the pro shop has any of the clubs 75th anniversary books left. It might be a good souvenir for those who are interested.

I didn't know such a book existed?

Scott,

I'm not a huge fan of the waste areas (when I'm in them!), but they are aesthetically pleasing and do provide interest to the holes. The thing I really don't like though is that pretty much every waste area is on the LHS of the hole. The 5th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th (partially) and the 18th are such examples.

Michael,

There was a book put out by the club for the 75th anniversary in 2003 that was given to the members. It was also for sale in the pro shop, but according to my emails from Bill Exten, the last one was sold in 2006. Interestingly, there was also a book put out by club for the 50th anniversary in 1978.

It has a plain gold cover and a letter from Bruce Crampton in the foreword, where he suggests the clubhouse should be moved down to the coastline around from the 5th green with ocean pool similar to the one at Bronte.

As far as waste areas go, holes 4, 7, 16 have them on the right side of the fairway. I won't include 15 since the few times time I have found my tee shot up in that area, it's usually not playable.
Next!

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2011, 08:32:01 AM »
Mark

Thanks for the quick breakdown of your thoughts - would be interested to hear more details on The Lakes in due course ?

As it was a southerly - what clubs did you hit into 5 at NSW ?

Mark_F

Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2011, 03:17:57 PM »
Mark

Thanks for the quick breakdown of your thoughts - would be interested to hear more details on The Lakes in due course ?

As it was a southerly - what clubs did you hit into 5 at NSW ?

No problems Kevin - I am just taking a while to put all my thoughts into some coherent form.

On the 5th, I tried to cut the corner with a driver, but pulled it into the bushes on the left about halfway up the hill.  My reload landed about the same spot but in the light rough.  I hit a five iron over the hill, then played a sort of long punch-chip with a 7-iron down to short of the green.

I asked a friend at work about the hole, wondering whether in a strong wind he would try to cut the corner in order to reach the green, since he is a very good player, and a very long hitter. 

He said he played it a couple of times in tournaments where he could only drive it halfway up the hill, where it would roll back.  He would want to take a 3-iron to get over and down the hill, but knew it might get over.  So if it was a 6-iron to get over, then that might balloon into the wind, so you had to manufacture a punch with whatever club you thought would get over the hill.

His thoughts seemed to summarise what you have written about the course elsewhere.


David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2011, 03:53:57 PM »
On the 5th, I tried to cut the corner with a driver

There is a dogleg on this hole?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2011, 04:02:32 PM »
On the 5th, I tried to cut the corner with a driver

There is a dogleg on this hole?

You wouldn't think so, but it is surprising how many shots that disappear over the hill in the center of the fairway end up a good distance into the right rough. I would not use the term 'cut the corner' but if you stay to the left hand side of the fairway when you aim over the hill (with either your 1st or 2nd shot) you will probably have an shorter and easier approach to the green.
Next!

Mark_F

Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2011, 11:08:43 PM »
There is a dogleg on this hole

Jeez David, you've only been married three or four weeks and you already have your hand on it.

The tee and green are offset to the fairway. 

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2011, 11:20:32 PM »
There is a dogleg on this hole

Jeez David, you've only been married three or four weeks and you already have your hand on it.

The tee and green are offset to the fairway.  

No personal insults, please Mark.  

Your attempt to 'cut the corner' when hitting to the base of the hill with your tee shot is laughable.  


Anthony,

Mark and I are talking about beforethe hill, not after, but you make a good point and I am sure the slope of the fairway over the hill assists this. 


« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 11:28:32 PM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_F

Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2011, 12:25:15 AM »
No personal insults, please Mark.

You mean like this one, David?
Was just speaking to Mark Ferguson and he wanted to know the carry distance on the fairway bunker.  Hopefully the hole is down wind when he is playing there.  :)


Your attempt to 'cut the corner' when hitting to the base of the hill with your tee shot is laughable.



I didn't hit into the base of the hill.  If you can't get the facts right, please refrain from commenting.

And if that image doesn't indeed show a corner to be cut, then I guess it's true that it does make you go blind.

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