[Tim Martin]

Maybe we should look at this from the opposite point of view.  If your club absolutely had to get rid of 5 items from the menu, what should they be? 

I'll start:

Crab Cakes

Clam Chowder

I see 4 salads, so I'd nuke the two that aren't Caesar or the basic one

Whatever pasta is on the regular menu.  It can be a daily special from time to time, but show me a club with great pasta on a day-to-day basis...

 

I don`t know if you x out clam chowder for the New England venues-pretty much a staple. They also mix them up between New England, Manhattan and Rhode Island varieties. Tough to beat a good Manhattan Clam Chowder. Just sayin.

[Scott Szabo]

I buy my underwear and socks at WalMart, my slacks online and my shoes on sale but I will be damned if I will suffer through a half assed meal because some on-the-cheap member only wants to pay for what he wants when he wants it and then drives 8 miles to the Bone Fish Grill because his wife's ass can only fit in one pair of jeans.

Now that's funny!

[JMEvensky]

Eric,

Just because you're tied to the facility.  That's really the only reason.  You need to have choices because there isn't anywhere else to go.  In the 'burbs of America, there are some eating establishments that I'd eat at before any golf course if I wanted a good meal and not a snack or no-frills quicky to get me to the next meal.
  

You think too logically to be on a club's Board.

Unfortunately,what Chris Cupit said above is gospel and no amount of good sense is going to change it.

A significant percentage of any membership is going to want "full service dining",and each one is going to use their own definition.They aren't going to use it and they'll complain about it anyway--but don't even try to limit the menu items.

Golf is rarely the top priority at a country club.

[Tim Martin]

Funny timing in that I just sent out a food and bev survey.  Some interesting data but after 38 years (20 for me) of seeing this stuff there is not a lot of fundamental difference in what people SAY they want.

Ben,

I hear you and wish I could offer a very limited menu that changed very frequently.  I could save on inventory costs and provide an excellent product.  The trouble is that JK recognizes and points out that that approach really won't fly in a private club setting.

We joke that we don't really have a menu but rather an ingredient list!  At a typical club the menu must be fairly extensive and even then people will ask for and demand you make whatever it is they ask for.  For example my lunch menu has the normal--club sand, ham, turkey, BLT, chix salad, tuna salad, fried bologna (we are in the south ) , brisket or corned beef (we have a lot of yankee members ), burger, hot dogs, grilled cheese, quesadillas, we always have a chili and soup of the day, daily fish and chicken specials, 6-8 salads for the ladies (Parisian, Taco, Chef, Cobb) with toppings from tenderloin to chicken to shrimp to salmon.  We have a soup and salad bar each Thursday (Ladies Day).  That leaves room for 3-4 "signature" items that we can rotate on a quarterly basis.  (Chicken tender platter, Seafood Crepes, Seafood Tacos, Old CHicago sandwhich, omelettes...)

We have people that eat at the club 3 days a week for lunch and they always want something different.  The trouble is that it is very hard to take off any food item as each one has it own following.  Even items that we rotate on and off the menu get ordered as members expect you to make it if you have the ability.

For example, this past weekend in the middle of the Atlanta snowstorm we did a lunch special where you bought one entree and received the next one for free.  Kind of cheesy but I will do anything to get people to their club, using it and hanging out with their friends.  We had 90 people come in on a slushy 40 degree day on each day this weekend and it was a great success.  The point is though that we had people ordering omelettes, seafood crepes, home fries, shrimp quesadillas--all items not on the menu--but items they knew we could do for them.

Any food person knows how special orders, particularly at very busy times are killers for the kitchen as you are not prepped for them.  The prep work before those times is 90% of the challenge but when Mr. Smith wants hand cut home fries or a chicken quesadilla but with shrimp instead of chicken and extra onions with red peppers only, no green peppers, extra salsa and sour cream and sliced avocado but no guacomole ! that is what he gets.  This seemingly easy request can throw behind a line of three guys cooking for 90 people in a 2 hour time frame.  Same goes for a genuinely easy request for a bagel and smoked salmon (people know we have it on our Sunday brunches so we have it somewhere in the kitchen, but may be in the mood for it on a Saturday at lunch time!)

Anyway, the whole point is that dues paying members don't really understand (and I am not saying they should) how their "demands" for whatever it is they want at pretty much any time increases the cost of the operation.  BUT, if you told them here is a new limited
menu that will change daily and we guarrantee it will be good, fresh product but it may mean that if you were in the mood for "your" sliced brisket you may be out of luck, well, then, they don't understand and get angry.

Nothing can be more time consuming and frustrtating than menu planning for a private club.  I think in a private setting you recognize golf pays the bills and food and bev is an amenity that can help foster good will among the membership particualry in slow times like winter months.  FB is a member retention tool that means I will do everything I can to meet any request.  

I have a great chef and kitchen crew who can pump out good quality food from burgers to a seven course gourmet night which we do 6-7 times a year. That is huge.  Wait staff can be tough to get really strong servers as the best servers tend to work in traditional restaurants where the tips and money are better but a great attitude goes a long way.  Be friendly and try hard!

Last thing--every survey tells you people want "heart healthy" food.  They may want to see it on the menu but it is always the worst selling item on the menu!!!

Isn`t it odd that there is that type of dynamic in place at a private country club that a member will scan 3 or 4 pages of menu items plus a page full of specials and then decide that he or she needs something made up special. Does this happen with the same frequency in good restaurants? I highly doubt it. There is something about a private dues paying club structure where people constantly pull this shit. Where else can you get away with this type of douchery(is that a word?)

[Jason Walker]

Our club has a full menu and it's understandable given the age of the members dining on any given evening could be 30 or 90.  But that said, we certainly don't eat at the club because the food is spectacular.  It's pretty good--not great.  But when we go the staff is fantastic, my 3 year old is treated like she's the queen, the drinks are correct and plenty, and we'll typically run into a dozen people we know...it usually makes for a great evening and we try and get there once a week.  As far as I know the food operation does OK, but trying to compare country club fare with the latest foodie rage du jour is a non-starter.   It's the evening, not necessarily the food itself, which brings us in.  Sorry I can't give you more specifics Archie, but I think you've gotten plenty of suggestions.  Plus, you've been to my place and know the food there.     But--a good general rule of thumb is the golf club better not f-up a burger.

[Lester George]

John K,

Wonderful answer!

Lester

[Tim Martin]

Where else can you get away with this type of douchery(is that a word?)

Actually, the word is douchetegery.

Personally, I think a 3-4 page menu is excessive.  The menu at my club on any given day, for both lunch and dinner, is one page. 

Shivas-Thanks for the correction and have you used it in a sentence. I agree that 3 or 4 pages is probably more than most clubs offer but the reference was more to make my point.

[Ben Sims]

You think too logically to be on a club's Board.


Golf is rarely the top priority at a country club.

Too bad.  Mr. Mucci has referenced very efficient and successful people losing all sensibility once crossing into clubs' gates.

As far as that second statement above.  That sucks to hear.      

My ranting about it won't change anything.  But a cultural change CAN happen at all clubs and courses.  It will start small and go from there.  People really want quality golf and more affordable/sustainable golf.  At all levels.  Everyone above the age of 35 are technological "immigrants" in our society and generally look for ways to streamline the paradigm laid out by their predecessors.  Yet they fail to truly change the social model.  It isn't until the technology "natives" that thrive on immediacy, speed, and efficiency grow up that we will see a change in golf/country club culture.   Redefining the golf management model at all levels of the game (public, private, etc.) will come from this group.  And, IMHO, it is imperative.  

This is way off topic, but the original post stirs up the argument.  Food and Bev. are support structures.  Not the op.  The op is golf.

[Jud_T]

Ben,

The change is happening.  It starts with your wallet...

[JMEvensky]

 

This is way off topic, but the original post stirs up the argument.  Food and Bev. are support structures.  Not the op.  The op is golf.

Yes and no.

There is the argument that F/B attracts people to join,keeps them coming out,fosters a sense of club-ness,etc.So,a lot of decisions are made with this in mind.

Personally,I think the argument is misguided and leads to some tail-wagging-dog stuff,the net result of which is that the "golf" part is taken for granted while resources are prioritized elsewhere.

IMO,what you're beginning to see is the golfers beginning to question those priorities.Ultimately,I think one of two things will happen at a lot of clubs--either the golfers will get their way which will cause the socials to resign or vice versa.

The problem is that country clubs are so locked in to the social members' dues line,each side needs the other.There are no easy fixes.

[JC Jones]

Ben,

Great posts.  Your distinction between technology immigrants and natives and it's relevance to this conversation is spot on.  Of course some of us feel it is relevant to every discussion of change, whether it be education, economic or golf club policies.

The next generation simply doesn't want the same things nor function the same as the baby boomers and until the boomers figure this out they won't figure anything out.

[Ben Sims]

Personally,I think the argument is misguided and leads to some tail-wagging-dog stuff,the net result of which is that the "golf" part is taken for granted while resources are prioritized elsewhere.

IMO,what you're beginning to see is the golfers beginning to question those priorities.Ultimately,I think one of two things will happen at a lot of clubs--either the golfers will get their way which will cause the socials to resign or vice versa.

A couple of extremely good points.   I see many CCFADs filling the role of the private club in newer suburban areas for the foreseeable future.  Maybe this is the direction to go.  Private clubs downsize, and become more exclusive yet fiercely golf focused.  For the social crowd, the involvement comes at a price, but with no exclusion because you're at a CCFAD.

[George Freeman]

I'd like a Rueben on the menu always.    

I'm with you on that.  I just don't know how many of us there are. 

At least 3 of us.

4!

5

6!  Of course!

[PThomas]

I'd like a Rueben on the menu always.    

I'm with you on that.  I just don't know how many of us there are. 

At least 3 of us.

4!

5

6!  Of course!

one of my saddest moments was when I found out that Stein's deli near Brookfield Zoo off of 1st Avenue closed...unbelievably good food like reubens, matzo ball soup, 2 kinds of great pickles, pastrami sandwiches, good french fries , etc.....

man how i miss that place...havent found a replacement yet although Manny's is pretty good

[Jud_T]

Paul,

Ever been to NYC?  Chicago doesn't have a deli that's worth it's schmaltz compared to your average NY deli...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I've NEVER seen a club include liquor as part of their minimum.

It's a FOOD minimum, to encourage utilization of the kitchen, not the bar, which always seems to do well in many clubs.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Here's my thoughts :

Gotta have

Grill Room

1) great cheesburger / hamburger   freshly formed random ...no premade patties even Kobe or Angus verboten

2) good hearty soups ...or cool ones in summer

3) some great potato dish/  either real quality fries or au gratin (ACCC had great ones)

4) some signature salad  ....whether it be Caesar or house or California ....I'm partial to bowls for the table with seasonal specials

5) a quality cold roast beef  or fresh turkey on good rye

6)  a super duper club sandwich

7)  cold draft beer / specials every day not to exceed $2.25 a pint

don't need much else ...it's a pub , not a restaurant


dinner


A good hearty steak ....sirloin

Meat loaf....with signature potato ...

Fresh scallops / fish du jour daily

italian night once a week / fresh pasta only

the perfect Martini

four good red wines /  with varied pricing

one house Pinot  and Chardonnay

the key is the simplicity ....it begets consistency and quality ...and no waste of inventory

Archie -

If I'm not mistaken, you're club is in the Phila. area (Jersey shore area), right?  If that's the case, I think you gotta have:

Snapper Soup
Scrapple (if you're offering breakfast or breakfast foods)
Cheesesteak
Hoagie (this and steak on AC style bread)

If you have martini makings, you gotta have Manhattan makings too...

[Jud_T]

Cherry chicken salad and Bell's beer...

[PThomas]

Paul,

Ever been to NYC?  Chicago doesn't have a deli that's worth it's schmaltz compared to your average NY deli...

not yet Jud..another reason to go!

[Chris Cupit]

Ben

No worries at all.  I understand what you are suggesting and I wish I could figure out how to do it!

A couple of other thoughts/rants:

Please don't think I was complaining. F and B can be a pain in the ass but if people are willing to spend their hard earned money with me for the privilege of spending even more money with me, I hope my staff and I thrive on doing for them what a "regular" business won't.  The tough thing for me though is balancing doing that with keeping my prices reasonable. I think one of the easiest things to do is simply provide the best to those willing to pay whatever for it.  If you give me a ton of money I can give you whatever you want without any problem!

But, if I charge 50-75% of the guy down the street in mandatory monthly fees and you want his level of service that is impossible at certain points.

BTW, we have never had a minimum of any sort at my club, we do have a $10 corkage fee on our gourmet nights so people can bring their special bottle of wine or champagne, my draft beer after 2:00 on weekends is $2 to keep the guys around for the afternoon games and we have never had an assessment of any sort even after our renovation.  Obviously I'm proud of that but my model of a lower cost but truly private club is facing serious threats as the "fancier" clubs that have gone broke now are lowering their prices to compete with me.  Also, there is the never ending battle of expectations as no matter the difference in fees, everyone wants the "stuff" the Jones' have down the street! 

It is a scary time for many of us in the business (many problems of course are of our own making) but I do believe giving people value and trying to create an atmosphere where your member genuinely feels welcome and appreciated will work.  I have seen some encouraging signs even this year and I am still bullish on the game of golf even though the golf industry may have let many of us down.

I hope as people re-evaluate pricing models in various markets they will also gravitate towards those clubs that meet their primary needs (golf and fellowship with others) the best and will get less caught up in the "fluff".  I'll keep my fingers crossed!

[archie_struthers]

Starting to fracture on operations are we?  

It always seems to happen , the tail starts wagging the dog. Look to the way CC's hire these days, seems like the food guys always end up as the GM.  How many golf pros have been relegated to the bottom of the metaphorical food chain at their respective clubs.


Some have touched on the need for a simplistic food component to golf, and I think that is the ticket.  

I'd argue that if you do a few items really well, it will eventually benefit the clubs that take this path immeasurably..It's so much easier to get line cooks to do a limited menu, and the savings on inventory are amazing. With repetition you get speed and consistency. the keynote to almost all successful food operations. There is also the freshness issue, which tends to slip with big menu's.  If you develop a reputation for having the coldest beer and a few signature items, most of your members will be fine.

How many times have you seen servers at the clubs struggling to punch in a myriad of codes into the computer terminals ( POS systems ) punching complicated orders into the kitchen , while you just want an iced tea or Miller Lite. Plenty , huh?   While this is  a management issue , its endemic to many cc's.  

AAH, simplicity, embrace it!

[Brian Freeman]

Ben,

Good enough answer and it makes some sense to me as I thought of a time last summer where I had guests out to play. We played 18, broke for lunch, and I drove them downtown to eat at a somewhat famous rib restaurant next to Neyland Stadium. We ate, drank a beer or two then drove back to the club to play the next 18. Bad member? Sure, Kavanaugh will say I'm a douche for it, but it is what it is.

Eric - If Calhoun's was within driving distance of my club, I wouldn't be eating at the club either!

[jonathan_becker]

My club has homemade apple dumplings and cinnamon ice cream on special occassions.  It might be the greatest dessert ever.

I was just looking at Calhoun's menu and now I'm starving! 

[Chris Cupit]

Starting to fracture on operations are we?  

It always seems to happen , the tail starts wagging the dog. Look to the way CC's hire these days, seems like the food guys always end up as the GM.  How many golf pros have been relegated to the bottom of the metaphorical food chain at their respective clubs.


Some have touched on the need for a simplistic food component to golf, and I think that is the ticket.  

I'd argue that if you do a few items really well, it will eventually benefit the clubs that take this path immeasurably..It's so much easier to get line cooks to do a limited menu, and the savings on inventory are amazing. With repetition you get speed and consistency. the keynote to almost all successful food operations. There is also the freshness issue, which tends to slip with big menu's.  If you develop a reputation for having the coldest beer and a few signature items, most of your members will be fine.

How many times have you seen servers at the clubs struggling to punch in a myriad of codes into the computer terminals ( POS systems ) punching complicated orders into the kitchen , while you just want an iced tea or Miller Lite. Plenty , huh?   While this is  a management issue , its endemic to many cc's.  

AAH, simplicity, embrace it!

Sorry about that.

We have a great Fried Bologna sandwich, excellent burgers and the chili and the onion rings are not bad

[Carl Nichols]

(and for good reason:  that's where the margin is ... I'd much rather have a club dropping a couple grand per guy on tap beer than on salmon or steak!)

That's only true if you assume peole wouldn't drink much without the minimum, which isn't my experience -- at my place, the minimum applies only to food and there's no shortage of boozing.  You need the minimum to apply to food to ensure that there's demand for the kitchen; the drinking takes care of itself.

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