[Jeff_Brauer]

Tmac,

Well, your last post is most appropriate during a discussion of how much manure was getting thrown around at Merion, because obvioulsy, it still is.......

To remind you, as David just did a few posts ago, in the beginning, I was willing to flesh out and accept his theories, but as the discussions went on, I changed my mind based on what I saw was the evidence and lack thereof on the alternate routing timelines. I still credit him for finding the Wilson trip timing, and for forcing the Merion boys to go dig deep and come up with documents that no one had seen in a while.

Along the way, I have stated that under modern standards of crediting, CBM would probably be given co-credit, or more credit than the terminology of the day, and the perpspective of the Merion members might have warranted, even if that feeling isn't universal.

And, within the last two weeks, I posted a detailed list of what I thought the contributions of CBM to Merion were.  When David politely suggested I had missed a few, I agreed and suggested a few of the more important ones.  At that point, I even speculated a bit (such as CBM being instrumental in seeing the Dallas Estate was necessary, and perhaps writing the 6000 yard course part of the letter as cover for their upcoming negotiations to buy that)

Along the way, I maintain my strong disagreement with some proposed time line for the routings, because I have little patience with proclaiming the routing timeline by ignoring the official club records and parsing other, unrelated documents to try to make a case.  No other way to say it than I think that is horse manure, pure and simple.  And, the efforts some make to use those kinds of deflections seemingly speak to them having an agenda, not me.

So, does any of that sound like someone who is blindly trying to protect Hugh Wilson's legend?  Or someone who is trying to understand exactly what happened?

David,

I agree that three full fw would be closer to nine acres, but if good turf came from the rough, then obviously it was three fw and part of the accompanying rough where they found what late was called Merion bluegrass.  It would be amazing if the area of bluegrass followed fw lines exactly, no?  So, yes, 10-12 acres of natural turf sounds right, or about half.  But, as I noted above, there were creekbeds, half of the road, clubhouse and maintenance areas, and the bottom of the quarry that presumably didn't need turf.  117-12- another five for all of those things combined brings you right to 100.

These threads would be a lot shorter if you didn't feel the need to instantly insult Mike and I without thinking it out first.

[Tom MacWood]

Did a golf course exist (either on paper or staked out) that needed re-aranging when they returned from the NGLA ?

2/1/1911 Wilson to Oakley: "After studying the matter over, we find what a big problem we have on our hands and how little real knowledge. If you could find it possible to arrange to analize the soil, we will only too glad to stand any expense that you would be put to. Our idea is to get the best analysis we can of the soil and what is needed to fertilize the ground, with a view of getting the best short growing grasses. I am sending you under separate cover, a contour map, and it you could arrange a analize the soil and advise us what fertilizer it needs, please way what sections you would like samples of soil from and will send them to you. If by any chance you are coming up to Philadelphia, I sincerely hope that you will look it up, for it would be a great opportunity for us to take you out to the course and have chance to talk the matter over with you."

2/7/1911 Oakley to Wilson: "I question very much the advisability of going to any trouble or expense in having analyses made of the various soils on your course, as chemical analysis really tells is but very little, if anything, in regard to the treatment the soil requires. We would be glad to get an idea of their general characteristics. I will be glad to you write us definitely regarding the condition of the new land at the present time, whether it is all cleared and whether there is any grass growing on it. I think we will be able to give you good suggestions regarding seed to be used on the fair greens, probably also on the putting greens, and some advice seeding and fertilizing."

2/8/1911 Wilson to Oakely: "As soon as the snow goes off, we will send you small samples of the typical soils in order that you can give us advice in regard to treating them. I sincerely hope that you will get up to Philadelphia and if you do, please let me know a day or so in advance and I will arrange to take you out and go over the Course with you."

3/13/1911 Wilson to Oakley: "I have just returned from a couple of days spent with Mr. Macdonald at the National Golf Course. I certainly enjoyed having an opportunity of going over the Course and seeing his experiments with different grasses...I hope that you will come up soon and will have time to go out and see our new problem."

Re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans.

3/16/1911 Wilson to Oakley: "I enclose a blue print showing locations from which soil was taken, which we are sending you today. I do not know if I made it clear in my former letter that any suggestions you would make in regard to treating the soil, will be much appreciated by us....Would it be better to put on the manure before plowing up the ground? We do not intend to seed before the Fall. Or would it be the best plan to plow and harrow the ground, then put on the lime and fertilizer, and go over it again and plow and harrow before seeding, say in August?"

3/16/1911 Russell to Oakley: "I beg leave to advise you that we have shipped to you, today by express, samples of soil and sod, regarding which you will receive a communication from Mr. Hugh I. Wilson a very short time."

3/20/1911 Oakley to Russell: "I am in receipt of your letter of 16th instant, and have just received the samples of soil and communication from Mr. Hugh I. Wilson. I will write to Mr. Wilson within a few days and give him as much information as possible on the subject of putting your course in condition."

3/23/1911 Oakley to Wilson: "As indicated previously in a letter, it is possible to five only general suggestions from an examination such as we are to make. This examination, however, is really as valuable in determining the course of treatment of the soils as if the soil were analyzed chemically. I think the whole course needs liming...We have found on our Arlington Farm on heavy clay soils that it is frequently impossible to correct acidity even with a very heavy application of lime, but where we have used a dressing of barnyard manure in connection with the lime the soil has been sweetened very materially. It would hardly be practicable, of course, at this season of the year to use manure on your fair greens, but I would suggest that you bear this in mind and apply it next fall if it can be secured. You will find that manure in conjunction with lime is very beneficial, indeed....The grasses to be used on your fair greens, I think, without question are redtop and Kentucky bluegrass...A fine leaved bent grass, with creeping or Rhode Island bent, I feel quite certain will be most satisfactory for your putting greens. I judge however that this feature of the course is not the important one at the present time, and that you are mostly interested in getting the fair greens in a playable condition."

3/27/1911 Wilson to Oakley: "I am in receipt of your nice letter of the 23rd, giving us the results of your experiments in regard to out soil. We will follow your advise in regard to liming and manuring the soil. You state that we should lime and manure heavily, and I would ask that your advise is the proportions of each we should use per acre. Of course you can get a better idea if you will stop over on your trip to New England. I certainly hope you can. We are starting in this weeks to plow and do some of the rough work....If you will let me know a day or two before you come to Philadelphia, I will arrange to go out to the Course and go over it with you."

3/29/1911 Oakley to Wilson: "I am in receipt of your letter of the 27th instant and regret to find that I did not reply fully to your letter of the 14th instant...I note what you say in regard to plowing the land now and not seeding until next fall. The fall seeding is the most satisfactory. Manure, however, may be applied now and lime also. there is very little danger of loss of nitrogen from applying the two at the same time, especially if the lime is thoroughly slaked. We consider an application of two tons of lime not excessive by any means, and in fact we have found under many conditions that double the quantity is more beneficial....I would not advise the application of any commercial fertilizer until the time of sowing the seed, since if applied now it would mostly dissipated before the grass would have an opportunity of taking advantage of it. the see of redtop can be secured from any reliable seedsmen either in Philadelphia or New York City....I realize that you may have some difficulty in securing a sufficient quantity of well-rotted manure, but if this can be done an application of ten tons to acre would not be too much. The plan of plowing the land now and then again in mid-summer is a good one, but care, however, should be taken to have subservice of the sail thoroughly packed before sowing the seed."

4/5/1911 Wilson to Oakley: "Our idea is to plow the soil at once and then harrow in the manure at the rate of ten car loads per acre. Then scatter quick lim at the rate of 2 tons per acre....I am very glad that you are coming up to Philadelphia and will go over the course with us."

4/8/1911 Wilson to Oakley: "On account of the fact we are not going to seed until Fall, it occurred to me that is might be better to use fresh manure rather well rotted, as we gain in strength of the fertilizer and probably would not get many weed seeds."

4/8/1911 Oakley to Wilson: "I am in receipt of your letter of the 5th instant, and note what you say in regard to applying lime and manure to your course this spring. In your letter you state that you expect to apply manure at the rate of ten carloads to the acre. I think there must be some mistake in regard to this..."

4/10/1911 Wilson to Oakley : "I am in receipt of your favor of the 8th instant and in reply beg to say you are correct in that there was an error in my letter of the 5th instant. I should have stated ten tone, not carloads."

4/11/1911 Oakley to Wilson: "I am in receipt of your letter of the 8th instant, and am inclined to think that under your conditions fresh manure will prove quite satisfactory."

4/18/1911 Wilson to Oakley: "We are still hoping that you will come to Philadelphia and have a chance of looking over the course."

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

To answer your question, while there is no record of when the committee first met to prepare their first plans prior to the March NGLA meeting, I have no doubt that some paper routing plans existed in March 1911, which would be supplanted by five and then the final one plan by early April.  The minutes confirm it.  

As you once noted, the April meeting minutes don't really establish a front end for that planning so we don't know if they started routing before Hugh Wilson sent in Feb 1 letter to Oakley or not.  

Having been appointed in January (most likely, all we really know is "early 1911" and he does sign the Oakley letter for "the committee" which has to be his committee) it would be a close call as to whether they managed to meet before that letter.  In fact, its probably pretty unlikely that they did.  

But, given that CBM told them to contact soil experts, and CBM had grass growing problems at NGLA, it also makes sense that Hugh Wilson jumped right on that (at least to me) right after he got the contour maps from the civil engineers.  He obviously took the agronomy part very seriously.  It seems as if he considered that a separate, but equal problem which demanded his full attention, no matter how the golf course was going to be routed.  

And again, just how much of a 117 acre site was going to be unused for the fair green?  Why wouldn't a novice ask an expert where the best places for soil samples might be?  Non of that seems outlandish to me, given my experience.

As to his use of "golf course" to describe a then open cornfield, I understand that in today's parlance, we would probably say to come visit our site, rather than course, before a course was built.  It appears to me that Hugh Wilson simply referred to the upcoming course as "the course" for whatever reasons.  I do not know if that was a popular way to say things or not.

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
Anyone with a modicum of common sense, even a complete novice, would not send a blank topo map to an expert and ask him where to take samples. The reason Wilson contacted P&O was to get their advice on preparing the ground and seeding. He did not approach P&O with the question, we are about to route a golf course, could you please tell us what portion of this property is best suited for greens and fairways, or alternatively which portion is least suited for fairways and greens. With less than 120 acres that would not be practical anyway. Asking for specific advice about fertilizing and seeding is something you would do after you have a routing, not before.  

Throughout the correspondence Wilson refers to a golf course, pre-NGLA and post-NGLA. If a golf course existed, as you believe, in March, it is very likely that golf course existed in February. If a golf course existed in February it is likley a golf course existed when the construction committee was formed in January.

A blank topo map is not a blueprint. It is common knowledge a blueprint is an architectural plan or rendering. Oakley referred to the map sent to him on February 1 as a blueprint.

[Mike Cirba]

Let's get back to reality and dispense with these CBM and/or Barker bromantic nocturnal emissions, shall we?

It's clear from the letters that Oakley wanted to get representative soil samples from various parts of the property and that Wilson wanted Oakley's expertise to determine where to take those samples from, given low-lying spots near water, higher spots that might be rocky, etc.

Here are the actual letters instead of selected transcripts.   They make clear that the property was viewed as just that, a complete entity without a golf course routing on it.   They also make clear other things like plowing, harrowing, fertilizing, etc.   They also make clear that half the property previously had corn planted on it.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Did a golf course exist (either on paper or staked out) that needed re-aranging when they returned from the NGLA ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

You consistently exhibit a huge lack of common sense, and yet feel compelled to base your theories on what you think common sense should be.  Very peculiar, and not very convincing.

And, what’s your deal with asking the same question over and over again, even though its been answered?  You drunk on a Monday morning or something? (insert smiley)

Like Mike, I note that Oakley says he will need “typical soils” not specific areas.  So, if we listen to him, rather than you, we get an idea.

BTW, your conception of what makes sense has no correlation to my reality.  Because of cost, which is always an issue, then and now, it is typical to collect many small sample and blend them together (trying to choose from representative areas where they vary)  On a normal site (like Merion seems to have certainly been) there are not specific fertilizer recommendations for each hole.  The blended samples give a general recommendation and good picture of whether the soil needs a ton of lime, or two tons.  Nobody breaks the golf course down into really small segments unless the initial samples give them some reason to do so.  And, there is no evidence that Merion had any real variations over the course soils wise.
 
And, the soils in the roughs would need similar treatment to the soils in the fairway.  If you are growing turf, the soil needs certain amendments whether you cut it as rough or fairway, and those were probably even the same grasses.  High PH is high PH or low N or P or K is low for all but a few turfs we have now, but didn’t have then.

Now, that is common sense which you apparently cannot grasp.  From my perspective and experience, I just cannot emphasize just how off base you are on your presumptions about what the soil samples and turf recommendations mean regarding the routing and design of Merion.  They are nearly independent of each other, again, because other than the areas of existing bluegrass, there is nothing really glaring in the agronomy of Merion that would suggest extradordinary measures, at least from the letters I have read.

One more thing - blueprinting is a reproduction method.  A blue print can come from any drawing or document done on transparent paper.  It can be a contour map, a final routing, a clubhouse plan, a property line map, etc.  You are just wrong on that count, and make that case ONLY to further your agenda.

So why do we even endure your proposition that something “makes no sense” and all the garble that comes afterwards as a result?  Frankly, that is the only thing that makes no sense here.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW, I think we should debate whether using well rotted manure vs fresh manure was the right thing for Merion to do.

I mean, it has almost no bearing at all on who designed Merion, but has that stopped us before?

[Mike Cirba]

Are we seriously debating whether Merion plowed and harrowed and manured and seeded only the fairways and greens?

Are you kidding me??

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
The question was addressed to Mike, and to my knowledge he didn't answer it. Were you speaking for him when you answered it affirmatively?

Actually Oakley wrote this:

"I question very much the advisability of going to any trouble or expense in having analyses made of the various soils on your course, as chemical analysis really tells is but very little, if anything, in regard to the treatment the soil requires. We would be glad, however, to have small samples of typical soils in order to get an idea of their general characteristic. I think we will be able to give you good suggestions regarding seed to be used on the fair greens, probably also on the putting greens, and some advice seeding and fertilizing."

You must have missed the part about various soils on your course, for the purpose of making suggestions about the course's fair greens and putting greens. Why would he send a sample from a location not intended to be fairway or green? What good would that do?

Oakley also writes later in the letter: "I am retaining the blueprint for future reference."

I'm pretty sure blueprint had the same meaning then as it does today, that is an architectural plan or rendering.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

In answer to your question, no, but multiple attempts to create a routing plan on paper preceded the visit to NGLA.

As none of them had been decided upon, much less approved, it is doubtful whether any would have been on the blueprint.

Further, if they had, they would have already had a common frame of reference, making it wholly unnecessary for Wilson to mark areas "A", "B", etc.    They would have simply said, "near the third green", or "in the 15th fairway", or whatever.

As far as Oakley using terminology, he was familiar enough to know that every single golf course on the planet had fair greens and putting greens and that each had particular agronomic needs and had worked extensively with CBM so that isn't surprising in the least.

Here's what Richard Francis said about the grass growing process;

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
So you disagree with Jeff who believe there was a routing (singular) when they went to the NGLA?

In the minutes it says they re-arranged the course when they returned from the NGLA, if they weren't re-arranging a golf course what were they re-arranging?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Yes, I disagree that there was a single routing when they went to NGLA.   I think the only evidence we have indicates that there were several on paper.

Creating "five different plans" is a bit more complex than "rearranging the course".   

I think "rearranging the course" simply refers to the act of routing, on paper at the time.

There is no way on God's green earth that Lloyd, Griscom, et.al. were out there driving stakes in the ground and then playing pick up sticks moving them around to create several routings "on the ground".   

To believe they were requires leaving one's sanity at the door, I believe.

[Tom MacWood]

Are we seriously debating whether Merion plowed and harrowed and manured and seeded only the fairways and greens?

Are you kidding me??

Mike
There is no mention of manuring the rough in any of Wilson's or Oakley's letter. There is no mention of manuring the rough in Wilson's 1916 account. Would you agree those are two pretty good first hand sources, but for whatever reason you believe they did manure the rough. What makes you conclude otherwise? This photo?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

What is the date of that photo and if you know, where is the 10th green?  I asked earlier about this photo, wondering if it might shed light on whether the big mounds around the 10th or Alps were there before or after Wilson's trip.

I looked at Nature Faker and the evolution drawings there didn't really answer my question.

I presume the black shadow is the tenth, and that the road swings way right where we don't see it.  If not, what is the black shadow and where is the 10 green they mention?

BTW, as I mentioned, I believe they harrowed everything they planted.  They would have had to.  That is how you prep for planting.

And, I am still lost as to how we get on these little side tracks, having no idea how someones use of the word golf course, or problem (which I have also seen used different ways, despite David's insistence, again, that words would only be used one way) trumps meeting minutes that say they prepared plans, went to NGLA and came back and did five more, approving them formally on April 19, 1911.

What could be more clear about when a formal routing was officially accepted by the club.  And, given records about starting to plow in March, etc. how many times can we ask when the golf course was on the ground prior to Feb 1, or any other time?  It simply wasn't, no matter how clumsy some wording may have been, or may seem to our modern take.  Probably made perfect sense to them!

We give these side tracks more respect than they or their propagators deserve.

TMac,

Didn't see your resonse.

Sorry, but blueprint means the same then as now.  It in not limited to one type of drawing.  We know, for intance that there was the contour map.  How do you think that was copied for field use?  Most likely, it was a blueprint also.  AFer fw lines and features were drawn on the oa copy of the original, then it was blueprinted again as a routing plan.  Then, if grading or drainage was added to another copy of the original, it was copied again as a construction drawing, and so forth.  A typical golf course had several different blueprints at some point during construction.

Also, Oakley as an agronmist wouldn't need to refernece the routing and doesn't say that he does.  And, the specific suggestions for the fair greens were for seed types, not soil tests.  

Again, I just don't think parsing the word your course, as opposed to your site is worthwhile.  They both used it that way well before we know there was a golf course out there - it was seeded in Sept of 1911.  If you think they would call a golf course a golf course only when it was partially under construction, but not while it was just in planning, it is a tough distinction for you to make, IMHO.  That would be even a narrower definition on than David puts out there for laid out.  While I agree that wordikng sounds odd to our ear today, they both seemed to use it in that context.

And to mimic your wording, your conclusions really makes no sense, at least to me.  I would suggest you quit beating that dead horse.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Yes, I disagree that there was a single routing when they went to NGLA.   I think the only evidence we have indicates that there were several on paper.

Creating "five different plans" is a bit more complex than "rearranging the course".  

I think "rearranging the course" simply refers to the act of routing, on paper at the time.

That is pretty strange interpretation of re-arranging. In the previous paragraph they wrote they laid out many different courses on the new land. I though that meant the act of routing, and in that context the later re-arranging of the course (singular) would mean that at some point they had arrived at one routing, and that routing was re-arranged when they returned. Am I wrong?

I thought something had to exist in some form before it can be re-arranged? You disagree?

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
The common use of the word blueprint is architectural plan or drawing, and obviously a blank topo map is not an architectural plan.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Blueprint refers specifically to the type of medium used, not the content.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

My exact words in post 2762 were: "I have no doubt that some paper routing plans existed in March 1911, which would be supplanted by five and then the final one plan by early April.  The minutes confirm it. "

You somehow twist that to say that I said there was a singular routing plan.  And then ask Mike if he disagrees.  Sorry he fell for it.  Geez. Try to keep this above board will you.

That kind of twisting shows exactly the kind of person you are.  Hard NOT to call you guys liars, but I will try to refrain.   Let me ask you again.  Are you drunk, or just plain old stupid?

Whoops, missed your inane post again.  You are just plain wrong.  They would need maps to walk the property and study the holes.  Blueprints (or these days blue lines of Xerox prints) of just the topo map are still common.  That is what we ALWAYS start with to draw the routing, or walk the property in advance of the routing.  As CBM mentioned back in June "Without a contour map in front of me".  

You are just about 10000000% wrong on that one buddy. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I will say that I was somewhat surprised to see the Nov 1910 map being a white background, rather than a blueprint.  I wonder if that was an original covered canvas or some other reproduction method.  I know blueprinting was the most common method back then, but obviously renderings got different treatment. 

I still suspect that to walk in the field, they would invest in the cheapest reproductiom method going - the blueprint.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
The most common use of the word is architectural plan or drawing.

I've seen a lot of old topo maps and very few of them are white lines on a blue background. And the reason for that is the fact that it is easier to draw on a map with a white background. Actually I don't recall any with blue backgrounds. Do you know of any?

[Jeff_Brauer]

And again, I would love to see TMac's simplified logic tree as to how manuring the roughs or not (its quite possible they decided it wasn't important enough to amend, although the pic Mike showed looks like what I thought it would - blue grass mix seeded wall to wall.

But, I still don't have my answer - are we arguing because you think the word golf course means that the place was already under construction by Feb 1?  Designed?  If the latter, how do you reconcile the other documents saying when the damn thing truly was routed?  By declaring the meeting minutes were "amiss" in some non specific way?

Just wondering.

The original plans were always on white/transparent paper.  It is not only easier to draw on a white background, it was the only way it was ever drawn.  There was no method to draw with white ink on blue paper. Linen, and later vellum and mylars were used.

The blueprints were simply copies.  The blueprinting process was to use a chemical coated paper with a solution that when exposed to light, turned the paper blue, except where light it couldn't pentrate the India ink used to draw lines back then, drawn on the original transparent paper.  Later, the blue (or black) line came into use with a similar process but using ammonia.  Before exposure to light, both paper types were yellow, with the chemical coating.

I have seen a lot of blueline topos in the old Killian and Nugent files.  There is a small chance that ttere were regional differences.  I always did find white backgournds easier to read.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

While it's possible that one of the Committee's early routings was on the topo map sent, I don't believe that was the case.

First of all, think about what CBM advised them to do, back in June 1910.   Note he doesn't say, "Route the golf course first".

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for analysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.

In soil analysis have the expert note particularly amount of carbonate of lime.



Second, we know from the MCC Minutes that the Committee was the one who devised various routings prior to the visit to NGLA in March.   That they would have had one together as early as February 1st is iffy.

But most importantly, in ALL of the plethora of communications between Wilson and P&O, not once did they refer to the location of a single tee, fairway, and/or green on that map.  Instead, they created a completely different reference system using alphabetic locations.   That would have been almost bizarre to the extreme if a pre-routed golf course already existed on the map.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Were the letters to P&O about agronomy or routing the golf course ?

[Bill_McBride]

Mike
The most common use of the word is architectural plan or drawing.

I've seen a lot of old topo maps and very few of them are white lines on a blue background. And the reason for that is the fact that it is easier to draw on a map with a white background. Actually I don't recall any with blue backgrounds. Do you know of any?

You don't draw with white ink on a blue sheet of paper.  "Blueprint" was an early method of reprographics that involved a white sheet of paper and a plan (black and white) being passed together through a bright light in a smelly medium.  The result was that everything not black turned blue, and the black lines stayed white, now on a blue background.

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