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Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2675 on: June 22, 2011, 04:10:35 PM »
Mike
Moving a green and/or recontouring a green, which is what Jeff theorized, would be an agronomic issue. Do you have the P&O letters from 1912, 1913, and 1914?

« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 04:29:08 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2676 on: June 22, 2011, 04:20:06 PM »
Tmac,

Thanks for that factual info.  I was going from memory, as I often do, but its good to know no greens were rebuilt in 1912.  And yes, it appears they built some hazards in 1911 (or concepts, like a stab at the Alps or Redan) and left others for later.

So, I am just trying to figure out - why the split?  Did they run out of time in 1911?  Did they feel pressure to get the course all grassed either to control erosion or meet their obligation to HDC (which by the way, I don't think is all that unreasonable a proposition, that it was their obligation to get it green at least as in the Dec Culyers letter) although I agree the consequences probably wouldn't be as severe as if dealing with strangers)  Or, was it their plan all along to not build stuff in detail until HW returned?

I also believe HW had to have had some interest in gca or he probably wouldn't have signed up for the committee.  Also, hard to think he would go to GBI without being interested, and then become interested during the trip, if that is what you are saying.  But, I have long had the impression that he didn't care for CBM's renditions, and the meeting with Colt makes perfect sense in explaining it and his bunker style.

I will also reserve judgement on whether he consulted Oakley on his bathroom visits, but I get your humor.....

So, in reality, we aren't too far off our interpretations, but it still leaves the question of how much of CBM's initial offerings survived until even Sept 1912 since we don't know just what got rebuilt.  We all agree that HW had more and more influence as time went on, and we are just speculating as to how fast that time line of influence was.  

Again, its hard to believe he was a milktoast (exagerating a bit) in April 1911, and a Tiger a year later.  Certain personality traits had to be in place.  And admitting they didn't know a lot to start is consistent with him seeking advice from nearly everywhere, as CBM suggested.  We could certainly give many examples from all walks of life of people who know just enough to be dangerouse and jump in with two feet, when logic and prudencee, seen from a distance, would clearly dictate they should not!



It was a common practice to delay adding hazards. The main focus was getting grass to grow. You can play golf on a course with few or no hazards, its hard to play golf on a course without grass...see NGLA and PVGC. Ironically the two courses Wilson suggests committees should visit when contemplating a new course. There is no evidence they ran short of time.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2677 on: June 22, 2011, 04:35:29 PM »
TMac,

I would think moving or recontouring a green is a design issue, not an agronomic one.

And, I tend to think that they didn't run out of time, they simply felt like they could add hazards as they went, such as after their chairman had a chance to study the great courses of Scotland.  All of that suggests to me that Hugh Wilson should be credited for the features.  None of it sheds any light on any remaining questions about the prime mover in doing the routing. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2678 on: June 22, 2011, 04:42:35 PM »
David,

The way I interpret at least part of Bryan's take on the Findlay quote is this:

Given you strongly maintain that "laying out" means to place on the ground (and only place on the ground) and
Given that there is no record of CBM laying anything on the ground at Merion, then

How could you interpret the passage as CBM having laid out the Alps hole at Merion?

Conversely:

Are you backing off your strict interpretation of the use of that phrase in those days, to where it could include design?

And, if so, then why wouldn't the phrase laying out, as used often in regards to the role of Hugh Wilson, mean planning, as you would have to interpret it to mean re: CBM and the Alps at Merion?

I think Bryan is asking if you are troubled by the apparent contradictions in your argument here? :)


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2679 on: June 22, 2011, 06:14:03 PM »
TMac,

I would think moving or recontouring a green is a design issue, not an agronomic one.

And, I tend to think that they didn't run out of time, they simply felt like they could add hazards as they went, such as after their chairman had a chance to study the great courses of Scotland.  All of that suggests to me that Hugh Wilson should be credited for the features.  None of it sheds any light on any remaining questions about the prime mover in doing the routing.  

Jeff
Mike said Wilson only involved Oakley in agronomic issues. Moving and/or recontouring greens would require either reseeding or sodding, which are agronomic issues.

Wilson should get some credit for the hazards, but which are his and which are CBM's is hard to say. I'd say definitely the Mid Surrey features are his...may they rest in peace.

Like I've been saying all along, Wilson began to exert his design influence after he returned from the UK. The work done prior to the trip, the routing, the individual hole designs, green designs, some hazards, etc, credit should be given to CBM or Barker/CBM. I lean to the latter.  

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2680 on: June 22, 2011, 06:17:44 PM »
TMac,

I respect your right to have an opinion different than mine........

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2681 on: June 22, 2011, 07:21:59 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

I asked Bryan some rather specific questions, and while you are free to answer them yourself (you haven't), I'd prefer if you let Bryan answer for himself as well.

You apparently still don't quite grasp how I understand the verb "to lay out," at least when it is convenient for you to not understand.  I'm not "backing off" anything.  Sometimes "to lay out" involved laying out and planning in one step and sometimes it involved laying out on the ground according to a preconceived plan.   Merion's Minutes tell us that the latter was the case at Merion.  

As for Findlay, he goes further than I would in allocating credit to CBM, in that Findlay seems to think CBM was responsible for the holes as they were laid out on the ground.  But his source was Hugh Wilson, so I assume Hugh Wilson must have given him that idea.  But you'd have to ask Findlay why he put it the way he did.

Now Jeff, are you ever going to answer my questions?  

_______________________________________________________

At some point I should go back and do a flow chart of how those advocating for Wilson (and it really has always been thinly veiled advocacy) have changed their positions over the years.  In the beginning CBM was nothing but Wilson's travel agent . . . when that didn't wash it eventually morphed into CBM was a travel agent who gave some general advice on what Wilson would see ,but Wilson largely ignored that advice, got his own ideas on what he saw abroad, and did his own thing at Merion and there was no trace of CBM's influence at Merion . . . etc.

Now, after many intermediate steps, we are at the point where everyone but the always lagging Cirba must realize that it was very likely CBM who was primarily responsible for planning the initial course, so now you are putting forth the rather ridiculous position that the real design work didn't even take place until after the course was designed and built.  Huh?  

There are a number of problems with this position, and they are mostly too obvious to bother discussing so I will just remind you all of one thing.  

Before Wilson had even returned from his trip abroad the Philadelphia Inquirer reported, "Many of the holes" had been patterned after holes overseas.  At the time of the opening, the Inquirer reported that "nearly every hole is patterned after some famous hole abroad.” So it was widely acknowledged that, as the course was initially built, much of the course was patterned after courses overseas.  The same had been said about NGLA.   Even Tillinghast ("Hazard") acknowledged, "Some of the famous holes abroad have been reproduced . . . ."  So whether all the bunkers were yet in place, the hole concepts certainly were.   Along the same lines, you are all assuming that whatever bunkers were added later had not even been contemplated at the time the course was first built.  The record does not support this assumption.  The hole concepts were determined, but the exact locations of the bunkers hadn't yet been determined.  As this was CBM's preferred approach, even this was likely at CBM's recommendation.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 12:29:39 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2682 on: June 23, 2011, 07:40:21 AM »
David,

As to reports from the Philly enquirer, I would like to know if they were written by someone as knowledgeable as Findlay, who had toured the course with Wilson, and consulted with him before his trip (possibly seeing the course and the faulty Alps hole even before Wilson left).  Yes, even Tilly said they were doing replica type holes, and there is no doubt that once they went to NGLA, and because of their goals and the fame of NGLA, that is what they started out to do.

But, what is the most reliable report?  Because, he tells us, after seeing the course first hand that the problems as conceived by the committee had not yet been put in place.  That certainly raises the possibility that the “reproduced holes from abroad” was as much marketing as design.

But, you may also be right that they had conceived the basic ideas and HW really just wanted to copy originals rather than copy CBM’s copies, which I think was wise, or confirm exact bunker placements, etc., given no one has said CBM lent them his sketches.

Another thing, irrespective of credit, is the fact that Wilson did see the Alps at NGLA, and yet Findlay counsels him to look at the real one, perhaps seeing their first effort at Merion.  I am just wondering how they couldn’t see that they were going to fall way short on the 10th after looking at the 4th at NGLA and its big natural hill? 

If CBM was really involved, even just suggesting holes on his April trip, how could he not see it?  Would he recommend an Alps feature on flatter ground? (He sure didn’t mind building holes when required, so perhaps, but they just fit as much fill in the tenth green as they could) 
Would he recommend a reverse Redan with no front to back slope?  An Eden that is not really an Eden?
For the holes that failed to meet the test of good design and were quickly rebuilt, does either the Wilson or CBM side really, really want their guy to take credit?

(Side note to anyone:  Is the earliest photo of those mounds on the original 10th from before Fall of 1912?  Was that the first effort, or after HW modified it?)

I would just like to know what was going on thought process wise between April 1911 when CBM made his last visit, and opening in Sept. 1912.  Certainly, the timing of the trip could have been better – closer to the original acceptance of routing and start of construction.

Did someone like Findlay see it at grassing and tell them they had a stinker on their hands, prompting the trip?   Always planned, but HW too busy? 

I am not really defending any position here, just trying to figure out the back story, and wondering out loud.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2683 on: June 23, 2011, 07:50:10 AM »

Before Wilson had even returned from his trip abroad the Philadelphia Inquirer reported, "Many of the holes" had been patterned after holes overseas.  At the time of the opening, the Inquirer reported that "nearly every hole is patterned after some famous hole abroad.” So it was widely acknowledged that, as the course was initially built, much of the course was patterned after courses overseas.  The same had been said about NGLA.   Even Tillinghast ("Hazard") acknowledged, "Some of the famous holes abroad have been reproduced . . . ."  So whether all the bunkers were yet in place, the hole concepts certainly were.   Along the same lines, you are all assuming that whatever bunkers were added later had not even been contemplated at the time the course was first built.  The record does not support this assumption.  The hole concepts were determined, but the exact locations of the bunkers hadn't yet been determined.  As this was CBM's preferred approach, even this was likely at CBM's recommendation.


David,

What else does this article say?

Also, as you may have noticed, I've been absent for a while, and haven't spent any time on my promise...but do intend to.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2684 on: June 23, 2011, 11:29:46 AM »
Here are the two 1912 Philadelphia Inquirer articles in question.

You can make up your own minds about the knowledge of the author(s) as to the specificity and intent of what was happening at Merion;






Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2685 on: June 23, 2011, 11:34:26 AM »
You apparently still don't quite grasp how I understand the verb "to lay out," at least when it is convenient for you to not understand.  I'm not "backing off" anything.  Sometimes "to lay out" involved laying out and planning in one step and sometimes it involved laying out on the ground according to a preconceived plan.   Merion's Minutes tell us that the latter was the case at Merion.

David,

This I have to hear.

I'll copy them out again for your convenience.

Parse when ready;

Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the
new land
(prior to construction - comments mine), they went down to the National Course
with Mr. Macdonald and spent the evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard
to golf courses. The next day was spent on the ground studying the various holes,
which were copied after the famous ones abroad.

On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans. (prior to construction - comments mine)
On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and
after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay
it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would
result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to
any inland course in the world. In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to
acquire 3 acres additional.

Or the Thompson Resolution from the same meeting;

Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout of the new
Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased
for other land adjoining and the purchase of about three acres additional to cost about
$7500.00, and asked the approval of this Board, it was on motion.





Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2686 on: June 23, 2011, 12:14:42 PM »
As regards the condition, and intent, of the golf course when it opened, I think it's important to go back and re-read what Tillinghast and Findlay wrote when the course opened.

His second paragraph here is particularly telling, and it's interesting to read throughout where he refers to the "builders' plans" (PLURAL).   Also, Tillinghast had considerable knowledge of both the famous holes and courses overseas as well as the plans taking place at Merion, which he told us he saw prior to construction.   Interesting what he chooses to focus on...

Does anyone think he's calling CBM and Whigham the "builders", whose "plans" are to be implemented??  Who does he credit in the article?

Why in heaven's name would Hugh Wilson's Committee deserve the congratulations of all golfers?   For supervising Pickering laying out someone else's plans??








Also, perhaps we should ask those who see CBM's fingerprints everywhere to go through the course with us and tell us hole by hole what was being copied from abroad in the placement of each in CBM's routing...or was that Barker's routing...I forget.

We can start with the first hole.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 01:47:17 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2687 on: June 23, 2011, 01:41:20 PM »
Here are the two 1912 Philadelphia Inquirer articles in question.

You can make up your own minds about the knowledge of the author(s) as to the specificity and intent of what was happening at Merion;







DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2688 on: June 23, 2011, 02:19:24 PM »
Jeff,

I've grown weary of the pattern in these discussions over the years.  Again and again you guys come up with these fantasy theories and treat them as if they were fact and as if it were my obligation to disprove them.  I have tired of being the only one carrying any burden of proof here.   If you think that Wilson redesigned the course after his trip but before the opening, prove it.   What specifically did he change, and what is your proof of him having done so?  Which bunkers were added?  Which features were already there?   There is one report of what Wilson changed after his trip, I haven't gone back and checked, but if I recall correctly it mostly amounted to finishing touches, like adding bent grasses as seen at a course in France, and adding some mounding like at Surrey.   If there is more than this, then by all means bring forth your evidence.  

For example you speculate about greens being redesigned immediately, but I've seen no evidence of this.  Hugh Wilson addresses rebuilding a few greens for agronomic reasons, but that wasn't quite immediate and sounds to have been more agronomic than design related.  But by all means bring forth your proof.

For another example you speculate that the Alps hole was a failure and was redesigned immediately, perhaps even before the course opened.  Prove it.  We know that Findlay didn't think it matched up to Prestwick, and we know that Findlay projects those same thoughts onto Wilson, but prove they changed the hole.  For that matter, prove that their concern was with the green, and not the rest of the hole.  I haven't played the original, but the accounts I have read indicate there was a lot going on at Prestick's alps off the tee, whereas there was nothing ongoing at Merion off the tee.  Remember this section was just grassland, and they were trying (unsuccessfully) to use the native grass as the fairway for these holes.   According to one later report, the flanking bunkers had not even yet been built.  

So why do you assume that Findlay's problem with the hole was at the green end? The green at Prestwick still still still resembles that of the early photos of Merion's Alps Green, but the drive is nothing like it.  And if Findlay was unhappy with the green end of the hole, then why, a few months later, did Findlay write that the second shot "requires a shot precisely like that to the Alps, or seventeenth, at Prestwick?" Surely you don't think they completely rebuilt the green complex, and re-grassed the green in these intervening few months, do you?  According to Wilson's letters and other reports, this was before they started using sod, so that would have been impossible.   And there is a photo showing the mound behind the hole from BEFORE Wilson's trip abroad.

So I'd like to see your proof that this hole was drastically changed early on, especially between Findlay's first article and mentioning it and his second, written just a few months later.

While you are at it, you keep saying that this hole was a failure and that it didn't work.  Again, where is your proof?  Because many of the accounts I have read, including that by Findlay shortly before the opening, praise the hole.  Lesley highlighted the hole in is 1914 introduction of the golf course, and noted it resembled the Alps at Prestwick in principle.   Articles previewing the 1916 highlighted it as well, one even the thrill of scaling the hole after the blind second to find the result.  And this green was repeatedly photographed and highlighted in the various accounts of the course through the early years, not because it was a bad hole, but the opposite.   Yes  it was eventually changed a dozen years after it was built, but all accounts indicate that this was because of increasing traffic on Ardmore Avenue, and not because it was a poor hole!  

But, please, if you can, prove me wrong.  Show me something that indicates that the 10th green complex was a failure of such monumental proportions that it needed to be immediately rebuilt. I think your assumption that it was a poor hole complex is mistaken and unsupported.  Please though, prove me wrong if you can, but use facts and opinion.

Also, you speculate that the 15th green was a failure and was actually rebuilt early on.  It is possible, but don't think it was rebuilt.  So prove it was.  Show me something that indicates that the 15th green was actually rebuilt. I think your assumption that it was a poor green and drastically altered early is mistaken and unsupported.  Please though, prove me wrong if you can, but use facts and not fantasy.  

As for the two reports in the Philadelphia Inquirer, you can read them yourself, but they were obviously written by someone who knew what was ongoing in golf in and around Philadelphia.  Note the discussion of the need to make courses more challenging and to give Philadelphia a first class course. Note the reference to Pinehurst and comparison of the courses here.  Note the knowledge about Crump and Perrin and their role in Philadelphia golf.  Note the detailed discussion of the Philadelphia Cricket Club course.    This reporter wasn't muddling through.  He knew what was happening.  

As for your question of which reports to believe, it is a false choice.  ABOUT ALL OF THE EARLY REPORTS NOTED THAT SOME TO MOST OF MERION WAS BASED ON THE GREAT HOLES ABROAD.  Yet you guys try to basically disbelieve them all, and claim that the hole concepts came later!   Preposterous.   Sure they left bunkers to be built later, until they could choose the exact location.  This is most likely what CBM and HJW told them to do.   But to take this to mean that the hole concepts had not yet been determined? Not supported by the record.

As for remainder of your post, give me a break.  You are just throwing out "skinker" theories left and right.  Maybe your claim that it was all for publicity would have flown years ago, before we knew more about the extent of their attempt to build CBM holes and features all over the property, but not now.  
_________________________________________________________

Jim Sullivan,

Mike posted the two articles, written five months apart, above.   As I said to Jeff, you can read them yourself, but it seems readily apparent to me that this author (these authors) was/were plugged into the golf scene in Philadelphia at this time.  There are way to many references that laymen wouldn't understand, the references to Crump and Perrin, the references to Pinehurst, the detailed description of courses, the reference to the lack of quality of golf in Phila. and the need for improvement.   This person knew too much about what was happening to simply dismiss him, especially when what he is saying is consistent to what else we know.  

As for your promise,  I thought you had given up on that once you realized that there was very little or nothing linking Wilson to the initial planning of the course.    If you are still working on it, I await it anxiously.

Thanks. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 02:28:00 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2689 on: June 24, 2011, 06:06:50 AM »
You apparently still don't quite grasp how I understand the verb "to lay out," at least when it is convenient for you to not understand.  I'm not "backing off" anything.  Sometimes "to lay out" involved laying out and planning in one step and sometimes it involved laying out on the ground according to a preconceived plan.   Merion's Minutes tell us that the latter was the case at Merion.

David,

This I have to hear.

I'll copy them out again for your convenience.

Parse when ready;

Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the
new land
(prior to construction - comments mine), they went down to the National Course
with Mr. Macdonald and spent the evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard
to golf courses. The next day was spent on the ground studying the various holes,
which were copied after the famous ones abroad.

On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans. (prior to construction - comments mine)
On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and
after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay
it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would
result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to
any inland course in the world. In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to
acquire 3 acres additional.

Or the Thompson Resolution from the same meeting;

Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout of the new
Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased
for other land adjoining and the purchase of about three acres additional to cost about
$7500.00, and asked the approval of this Board, it was on motion.


Mike
Would it be possible to post the original document?

Doug Wright

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2690 on: June 24, 2011, 02:15:21 PM »
I waited 78 pages to open this thread, thinking all along it was about NGLA. Guess not...I should have known.   ::) 
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2691 on: June 24, 2011, 04:21:38 PM »
I found this article on NGLA for sale on eBay today while looking for something else. It is from 1907 and is written by Walter Travis. They do not say which magazine it is from but as the other article is to do with tennis it may have been a general sports magazine.

Anyway, what better place to post this on a thread about NGLA's history which has been going for 78 pages! Is this place called Merion a little part of the NGLA property? I'm wondering why so much discussion about it?  ;)

Perhaps this might be of some interest to the protaganists.


DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2692 on: June 24, 2011, 06:43:05 PM »
I waited 78 pages to open this thread, thinking all along it was about NGLA. Guess not...I should have known.   ::) 

Unfortunately, the thread wasn't even about NGLA when it was about NGLA.
______________________________________

Neil,

Thanks for posting the article.  Interesting.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2693 on: June 24, 2011, 08:50:45 PM »
My pleasure David
I had not seen it posted before so just thought I'd add it to the mix.

Now normal programming can be resumed .............

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2694 on: June 25, 2011, 09:10:30 AM »
David Moriarty,

Yesterday afternoon at 3:00,  when I was about to tee off at Southampton with the esteemed sandbagger Gene Greco, an older gentleman came over and introduced himself to us.  I'm told he's 90+.  He knew that my dad and I had won the New Jersey and MGA Father-Son tournaments on numerous occasions, and he also knew of the golfing records of the other two, very good golfers in our group.  Unfortunately, he only knew of Gene Greco as a dentist and not a golfer ;D.  He seemed exceptionally well versed about the golfing world.

I was then informed that when he was very young, he began caddying for C. B. Macdonald.

We spoke for some time since two groups were in front of us, with a terrific looking blond with a great shoulder turn and swing immediately in front of us.

I asked him all kinds of questions about Macdonald.  For his age, this fellow was as sharp as a tack, had a great sense of humor and loved everything about golf.

I asked him if he had ever heard anything about CBM doing work at Merion.

He told me that he had heard conversations about Macdonald referencing work he had done at Merion and that Macdonald was resentful because they were tampering with his course, trying to compete with NGLA for the top dog spot and that Macdonald was resentful because they were trying to "push" him to the side and giving all the credits to the "Philly" crowd and minimizing the "New York crowd's" influence.

This reverts back to exactly what Mike Sweeney described about the "New York" vs "Philly" conflict.

After golf and a few drinks, we visited the cemetery where CBM and SR are buried.
There was a security guard there who asked to see identification, so we had to produce our driver's licenses.
I asked him, why ?  As it seemed strange.  He said that there were rumors that a deranged group from the Philadelphia area, known as the "Merionettes" were planning on desecrating the graves.  I told the security guard that these weren't mere rumors, but, a known plot, and that he should remain vigilant.  I gave him a brief description of the three main perpetrators and told him to be on the lookout for a mini-Cooper with Pennsylvania license plates, traveling with a dog named "Coorshaw"

I will start a thread on Southampton, a terrific Seth Raynor course that recently went though a successful restoration process with Brian Silva.
It's a fabulous golf course.

Yesterday morning, I double bogied the first hole at National and 3-putted the 18th, but still managed to shoot three over and qualify for the Championship Senior division flight with 7 other guys.  Today, my first match is against my very dear friend and great golfer, Terry McBride, who was even par yesterday.  George Zahrhinger won the medal at 5 under.

I'll start the Southampton thread tonight.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2695 on: June 25, 2011, 09:56:53 AM »
Neil,

That's a terrific article, thanks for sharing.

I'd be very curious to know when in 1907 it was written/published.   It is very clear that the course is still to be laid out at that time as Travis tells us that they were still deciding which holes from abroad to reproduce.   Yet, they had already secured the 200 acres in 1906, which was my point all along in starting this thread.

I came across another one a few days ago from 1908 which made clear (as does one on the first page of this thread) that at that time Travis was still part of the "Committee", with CBM, Whigham, and Emmet.   I think one of the values of this thread is putting some of that timeline in proper historical perspective.   In CBM's book, it makes it appear that Travis was "dropped" from the project early on, which is not really the case.

Doug,

Actually, this thread WAS about NGLA, and if you go through about the first 40 pages or so (I believe the topic changed around page 41) there is a lot of terrific information (and speculation both reasonable and wild) about the origins of NGLA, and I complained when the thread turned towards Merion as we'd already hashed and rehashed that topic and my intent was only to make it about the issues of Merion tangentially, as parallels had been previously drawn by some.  

I do think it has value in making clear the similarities and differences, and for anyone actually interested in history I believe there is still a lot of value to this thread, including Neil's recent find.

Tom MacWood,

I'd suggest you make a trip to Ardmore to see the original.   I certainly don't have an electronic scanned copy, but those artifacts are available for viewing by those who go through the proper protocol.   I'd be happy to take you to dinner.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 10:00:01 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2696 on: June 25, 2011, 10:12:41 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I'd suggest you make a trip to Ardmore to see the original.   I certainly don't have an electronic scanned copy, but those artifacts are available for viewing by those who go through the proper protocol.   I'd be happy to take you to dinner.

Mike
Thats too bad, I was hoping to read what proceeded the excerpt and what followed (and what was in between) to get some context, because frankly, as it reads now, it makes no sense. How do you layout many golf courses on the land? Who would write something like that, and what does that mean. I've read a lot of old documents and old articles and I've not read anything quite like that. Do you know who wrote the entry?

I believe the Travis article is from April 1907.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2697 on: June 25, 2011, 11:28:09 AM »
Tom,

It seems to me that ALL of those guys back then wrote some pretty grammatically awful stuff that belied their often fine educations and that frustrates us today with their lack of clarity and detail.   I would count Findlay and Macdonald and Behr among them.   Travis was perhaps the best of the lot.

In any case, I would throw in a round at Cobb's Creek if I thought it would entice you to make the visit.   That goes for Patrick and David, as well, both of whom I played golf with previously and both of whose company I enjoyed a great deal.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 12:38:06 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2698 on: June 25, 2011, 11:43:17 AM »
Mike
Do you know wrote that entry? What does it mean laying out many golf courses on the land?

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2699 on: June 25, 2011, 12:23:16 PM »
I'd suggest you make a trip to Ardmore to see the original.   I certainly don't have an electronic scanned copy, but those artifacts are available for viewing by those who go through the proper protocol.   I'd be happy to take you to dinner.

Mike Cirba, you should really quit saying things like this. You aren't a member of Merion, don't speak for Merion, and don't represent Merion in any way. This is NOT Merion's policy. Those documents are NOT AVAILABLE for viewing to anyone who goes through the proper protocol.  Wayne Morrison has arranged it so those particular documents are off-limits to certain of us no matter what the protocol.  And what would you know about proper protocol?  Kissing up to TEPaul is NOT proper protocol.
__________________________________________

Patrick,  Nice story.   Good luck today.   Look forward to reading about Southampton. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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