[Tom MacWood]

Some more interesting tidbits that might (emphasize might, because we don't agree on anything around here)

I would report that proceedings for the incorporation of the Merion Cricket Club Golf
Association are underway with a slight modification of the details of my letter of
November 23rd.

In regard to the title of the property the boundaries of the land to be acquired being as
yet uncertain owing to the fact that the golf course has not been definitely located, it
was found advisable that the Haverford Development Company should take the title in
Mr. Lloyd‘s name, so that the lines could be revised subsequently. I would thank you
to let me know as soon as the boundaries have been determined upon. (bold & color for emphasis mine)

I understand that as no cash will be needed for some months, the issuance of the
second mortgage bonds can be postponed until after the boundaries of the property
have been determined upon.

I should be much obliged if you would at your convenience let me have a copy of the
lease of the Cricket Grounds from the Haverford Land and Improvement Company in
order that the lease of the golf grounds may conform therewith.

Yours very truly,
(Signed) Thomas DeWitt Cuyler

It is moved, seconded and carried that the Board organize, and that the present
Committees continue for the present until the next meeting of the Board.

It is moved, seconded and carried that the Secretary postpone ballot.


What do you make of changing the land agreement a week +/- after the basic land plan was submitted to the members?

It tells me something happened between November 23 and December 21 regarding the potential lay out of the course.

That the boundaries had not been determined?  How could the land swap have taken place?

I think the boundaries were determined on Nov. 23. In his Nov. 23 letter Cuylers refers to the plan included in the circular. I suspect that is the drawing entitled plan for the proposed golf course. The boundaries were determined on Nov. 23, but those boundaries were now being reconsidered for whatever reason.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Do you realize your posts are becoming unreadable?    No, I mean the red ink.....at least I think!  

But, if you keep making such ridiculous statements as your last few here I'd suggest perhaps you should go and read Phil Young's architectural evolution piece on SFGC to see credible research that takes place both outside and WITHIN a club's records  in action.

David,

No nastiness...I thought it was quite humorous actually.   I do know how you spend a lot of time playing with your hickory stick and know Ralph has the same indulgence.  

Better than going around calling people "idiots", don't you think?  

And Lloyd didn't just take title for the 117 acres Merion secured in his name for HDC....he bought the Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate outright in December which is why Francis had to come directly to him for permission later..

Why in God's name would Francis had to have gone to Lloyd for permission before Lloyd owned any of the land?

That question itself is self-evident of the absurdity and ultimate folly of your position.

You'd really do yourself a favor by simply arguing that CBM had more to do with the course AFTER December than given credit for, which is an arguable position.

However, in your zeal to destroy the reputation of Hugh Wilson, and get back at whatever perceived wrongs happened to you in Philadelphia, you've boxed yourself into a position that is indefensible.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Good questions all, and i'll be back later this weekend but have to run out.

I will say that there was one article in a PHilly paper that talked about an option to 130 acres, but there is no internal record of such a thing, no paper trail indicating that ever happened, and the same article talks about tennis courts and other stuff.

In any case, I think even THAT article shows that the planning for the property had only just begun.

And no...I'm not going to look for stone markers today.   

[DMoriarty]

No nastiness...I thought it was quite humorous actually.   I do know how you spend a lot of time playing with your hickory stick and know Ralph has the same indulgence.  

Are you still in 4th grade, or did your mind just stay in 4th grade while the teachers passed you along to be rid of you?  What's next, fart jokes?  

Better than going around calling people "idiots", don't you think?

Ralph called it as he saw it, and you continue to prove him correct . . .

And Lloyd didn't just take title for the 117 acres Merion secured in his name for HDC....he bought the Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate outright in December which is why Francis had to come directly to him for permission later..

Mike you and your mentor cannot just play make believe when it come comes to this stuff!   You have to consider what the documents actually say.   HDC took title to that property in Lloyd's name.    Here, let me break it down for once again in layman's terms.  

1.  As of November of 1910 HDC owned or had options to purchase  not quite 340 acres of land.  Not all of the land was yet in HDC's name, and HDC was using the money from the sale of the golf course land to consolidate all of their interests (exercising options, completing purchases, transfering property,etc.) into HDC for development.   Particularly, the 140 acre "Johnson Farm" parcel was technically owned by a related entity (something like Ardmore Land Company) and the Dallas property was in the process of being acquired (as had been the case since October or before) from the Estate.

2.  Originally, the land for the golf course was apparently to pass from the previous owners (Ardmore Land and whoever was holding the Dallas Estate, probably the executors or to whomever they had transferred) to the new MCC related corporation.

3. For this to happen, the Johnson Farm Property needed to be divided along Golf House Road, the location of which as of November 5th 1910 was still "Approximate" pending the final determination of the boundary of the golf course.  

4. So Cuyler proposed that the parcels to be used in whole or in part for the golf course (the 140 acre Johnson Farm and the 21 acre Dallas Estate) be instead transferred to HDC in Lloyd's name pending the final exact determination of the boundary (the road) dividing the Johnson Farm.  

5. At that point, on behalf of HDC, Lloyd was obligated to convey the land for the golf course to the MCC related entity and the remainder to HDC.  And that is what happened.

So, in short, all this nonsense about Lloyd buying the land outright is and has always been wishful thinking your the part of you and your mentor. His and your claims about how Lloyd and his wife bought this land for themselves are absolutely ridiculous and yet another example of you you guys twist and manipulate the facts to suit your rhetorical needs!  The Faker pdf is full of such examples!

It really shows bad faith on your part (and TEPaul's) for you guys to continue to twist and pretend that this was Lloyd's land to do with what he pleased!  Lloyd was merely holding the land for HDC until the boundary was finalized and the golf course land could be transferred to MGA.  

The entire thing was and is merely the result of a technicality relating to timing of the final determination of the location of the road!  Ultimately the land for the golf course was going to MCC and the remainder to HDC!  It was never "bought" by Lloyd as you guys keep pretending.

How can anyone take seriously anything you guys claim when you are blatantly misrepresenting what happened in this transaction to suit your argument?   Is their anything you guys will NOT misrepresent?

Why in God's name would Francis had to have gone to Lloyd for permission before Lloyd owned any of the land?

That question itself is self-evident of the absurdity and ultimate folly of your position.

"Why in God's name" is another of your tells.  It means there that whatever follows makes no sense and/or has no support so I am overstating it in the hopes people will buy it.

In this case it is self-evident but not for the reasons you claim.  Lloyd was the person dealing with HDC throughout 1910.He was structuring the transaction and negotiating the land to be purchased.  He is also the one who was dealing with CBM (and the person who a few papers reported had brought Barker in as well.)  Lloyd was the go-to guy.  Had this happened when you think it did, then Francis should have been peddling to Hugh Wilson's house, not Lloyd's.

You'd really do yourself a favor by simply arguing that CBM had more to do with the course AFTER December than given credit for, which is an arguable position.

However, in your zeal to destroy the reputation of Hugh Wilson, and get back at whatever perceived wrongs happened to you in Philadelphia, you've boxed yourself into a position that is indefensible.

This is a telling statement in more than one way.

1.  What you suggest would be tantamount to ignoring, manipulating, and/or misrepresenting the factual record as I understand it for rhetorical gain. No thanks.  That is how you and your buddies get yourself all tangled up and I want no part of that.

    In other words, unlike you and your pals, I don't look at the facts as merely a means to advocate my preconceived conclusions. I go where the facts take me, and to me the facts indicate that at least a rough routing had already been determined before November of 1910, by some combination of Barker, CBM, HJW, and Lloyd and Francis!

2.  There is no question that CBM played a major role of designing Merion East, and no question that it was MY ESSAY which brought this to light. All the insults and manipulation and game playing by you Brauer, TEPaul, Wayne and others aren't going to change this.   But in addition, I'd like to understand the details, and what happened in 1910 is one of those details I'd like to work out.  

3.  Far from attempting to destroy the reputation of Hugh Wilson, my essay treats him respectfully and outright praises him. In fact I was the only one of which I am aware who ever showed enough respect for the man to take him at his word, which is what started this entire process in the first place.
   Your insistence of couching this in terms of defending Hugh Wilson says a lot about you, though.  A better way to look at this is that in your "zeal" to defend the legend of Wilson at all costs, you have made a fool of yourself and the very club and men you claim to be defending, and inexplicably you continue to do so!
   If you are truly concerned with Hugh Wilson's reputation you really ought to take it up with the Flynn Fakers, who have all but cut Wilson out of what he actually accomplished at Merion. It is absolutely atrocious what they have done to Wilson's legacy in their "zeal" to pretend that Flynn should be given credit for all that is good at Merion.  What a travesty --they don't mind burying Wilson in their quest to falsely elevate Flynn.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Do you realize your posts are becoming unreadable?    No, I mean the red ink.....at least I think!  

But, if you keep making such ridiculous statements as your last few here I'd suggest perhaps you should go and read Phil Young's architectural evolution piece on SFGC to see credible research that takes place both outside and WITHIN a club's records  in action.

It is glaring, but I'm confident you could read it and would rather not deal with it. I read his piece, and I'm glad you were impressed.

[Mike Cirba]

Re your point 2 below, to be factual, the 310 yard dimension did still exist in the spring of 1911 when Golf House Road was built, and in July 1911 when the 120.01 acres was deeded to MCCGA.  The 120.01 acres included a rectangular strip that was 3.667 yards wide by 76.667 yards long that ran south from College Ave.  South of the 76.667 yard long strip the east-west dimension broadened rapidly following the curvilinear arc of GHR as built at the time, and the same as it is now.  That broadened area is 233.333 yards long.

Bryan,

I believe if you look carefully you'll find that the ONLY land on that deed Merion purchased north of the 16th tee for about 120 yards is the 3.667 yards (11 feet) that makes up the right side of Golf House Road (HDC owned the left half), giving them access north to College Avenue.   The road was later gifted to the township.

There was no 310 yard triangle beyond what was drawn on the initial November 15th, 1910 Land Plan before the golf course was routed.

That triangle that was drawn at about 95 yards at the base with 310 yards in length on that Land Plan was changed once the course was routed.   After the Francis Swap, it was widened at shortened to the now infamous 130x190 we know and love.   

The anticipated right side dimension for the golf course that extended north to College Avenue for 310 yards was the most obvious change from how far north they originally intended the golf course in November 1910.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
When was the last time any new information was brought out?

[Mike Cirba]

C'mon Tom, don't be a wussy.

If you're going to hang around here just to take potshots why don't you just admit to everyone that you think this whole idea that the course was routed by someone prior to November 15th 1910 is a bunch of horse crap too? 

You know it is, yet you sit here and won't call David out on it.

Why is that?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

You're deflecting the pertinent questions again, not surprisingly.

WHEN did Lloyd come into a position where his approval would have been needed for any Land Swap idea of Francis?

BEFORE November 15th 1910, or AFTER??

[Tom MacWood]

I'm guessing your response (or should I say your non-answer) means it has been a very long time since you or anyone else has brought new information to the table. At some point don't you grow tired of constantly speculating abut the same thing, over and over, and not getting any closer to the truth?

Here is one to speculate on: Why would Merion Cricket C. rely upon an inexperienced untested insurance salesman when they had arguably the two top men in the field at their disposal? Adding to the conundrum they were interested in building a world class golf course and the success of a real estate venture was on the line.

[Tom MacWood]

As far as the course being routed prior to November 1910, we all know Barker produced a routing in June 1910. I suspect he was back around December to actually stake out the course, and that may explain why Culyer said hold the phone December 21st. Perhaps a modification of the original routing, and the borders of the golf property, was a foot. Is it possible the swap may have taken place in December or January?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

1) Because it's an interesting, multi-faceted topic that helps us to understand the early American amateur architectural move away from the failed ways of the early British professionals.

2) Your complete lack of evidence upon which you base your speculation on this topic grows increasingly bizarre.  You may want to get outside today.   The swap theoretically could have taken place any time after Lloyd took control of the land in December, but the preponderance of evidence would make March/April a much higher possibility, probably by a factor of about 99 to 1.

[DMoriarty]

David,

You're deflecting the pertinent questions again, not surprisingly.

You throw a little fit, wrongly denying that Lloyd took title for HDC and accusing me of "suddenly" making up this claim; I explain in detail what actually happened, and you accuse me of deflecting?   Look in the mirror Mike.

WHEN did Lloyd come into a position where his approval would have been needed for any Land Swap idea of Francis?

BEFORE November 15th 1910, or AFTER??

I addressed this above and have addressed it numerous times before.  Lloyd was the person who was negotiating the deal with Haverford Development Company BEFORE November 15, 1910.  Read the Cuyler letters!  Read the "circular."  Lloyd was Merion's point person during the early stages of this. He was the go to guy.   

You need to stop trying to twist everything, Mike.  You've already conceded the main point in the disagreement.  Now that you have admitted the obvious --that the land west of Haverford College was already to be part of the golf course before November 15, 1910, we really don't have much to argue about.   Prior to the swap the land west of Haverford College was NOT part of the golf course.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Nice try, but yes, according to the November 15, 1910 Land Plan the land all the way to the northern boundary of the Johnson Farm was considered to be the land where the golf course would be routed and built in coming months.

That both maximized golf course facing housing lots along the border (which was going to be a road separating the course from the RE Development), as well as maximized ingress/egress options for the club along the rail and to major roadways in the neighborhood.

It was a nice concept, but it didn't work.

Instead, once the course was being routed, Richard Francis realized that the border needed to be widened and shortened, so today instead of the course running the 310 yards from the southern border of Haverford College north to College Avenue, it only runs for 190 yards.   That final 120 yards was abandoned, and other compensations took place up and down the border to account for the difference in overall property, mostly by giving up land right across the street from the clubhouse and continuing up the 14th fairway.

He also widened the base of that triangle to 130 yards to ensure he could get two parallel golf holes in there wihiile having to navigate around the large quarry.

I know you'll try to argue the most absurd things in an effort to negate Hugh Wilson's leadership here, David, but you have no evidence  or facts on your side and it gets tiring just listening to you misrepresent others.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I remember I really started to think that David's arguments were going south when he spent time saying that they really didn't want houses fronting the golf course, but with the golf course in the back yards. At length, this was one of his arguments as to why the road wouldn't have been as drawn originally, but mostly using 1950's real estate planning ideas. 

My knowledge of real estate courses in that period - with front yard golf being fairly typical - told me that it wasn't very likely true that HDC would have considered something other than a long, fairly direct road along the golf course.  As Jim Sullivan noted, they probably had a bit of consternation over loosing one potential lot up north, but had agreed to do what it took to fit a golf course in, and did get some extra cash out of MCC to offset the presumed lot value of that lost lot, as planned with the agreement.

But David did prove one thing - that he likes to argue no matter what.  What have we learned?  Well, nothing, since we are still arguing with him and nearly any nonsensical position he may wish to take, as long as it proves something other than what the Merion club documents say.

I do appreciate that he has stopped using the word disingenuous in regards to those who oppose his ideas, downgrading his approach to us merely pretending.  As in me quoting his essay word for word, and him claiming that I am "pretending to quote him."

[Mike Cirba]

I addressed this above and have addressed it numerous times before.  Lloyd was the person who was negotiating the deal with Haverford Development Company BEFORE November 15, 1910.  Read the Cuyler letters!  Read the "circular."  Lloyd was Merion's point person during the early stages of this. He was the go to guy.

Jeff,

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

See the above where he tries to somehow empower HG Lloyd with decision-making authority before Lloyd actually was in a position of power (as happened in December 1910)!  

Because Lloyd was "negotiating" with HDC before November, he apparently had carte-blanche authority over them!  

Why bother negotiating?   Why not just tell them this is what we're going to do and do it?

Read below what Francis tells us about his brainstorm again.   Does he say that he went to Lloyd who then said he'd setup a meeting with Connell and HDC to discuss this proposal?



No, he says "Lloyd agreed", and within a day or two they were out there blasting away!  Would this ever have happened on land still owned by someone else who was still "negotiating"   You've got to be kidding me.

I agree with you Jeff...David does himself a tremendous disservice by trying to play the MacWoodian ABW (anybody but Wilson) card because he locks himself into these preposterous arguments that do his more plausible scenario...that Macdonald had more to do with the routing of Merion East than we knew previously...a great deal of harm because it limits reasonable discussion.

Of course, he won't call MacWood out on his ridiculous Barker scenario so MacWood doesn't call him out on his ridiculous "routing before November" scenario, so we are left stymied, and unable to have a reasonable conversation.

They both so badly want to diminish the work of Hugh Wilson for whatever personal issues they have with Philadelphia and Philadelphians that any good that might have come from their research is the only thing that actually gets besmirched in the process.


***EDIT***  I just noticed something else in the Francis statement.   Evidently at the time of his brainstorm there were still multiple golf "layout"(s) under consideration, as in "it didn't fit with any golf layout".

That of course belies the interpretation that the "layouts" were simply stakes in the ground put there by someone else's direction, but also really provides additional evidence that this likely happened sometime in late March/early April 1911, where we KNOW that there were at least five different "plans" created by the Committee after their return from NGLA in early March.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Ironically, the truest words every spoken on this thread were in TMac's post 1716.

And, we have parsed the Francis document to death.  While most seem to agree that it is basically accurate, it is such a sketchy account as to cause different interpretations, and make some wonder if parts came out wrong due to the time from which events occurred and/or just being shortened for publication, which I find can inadvertantly cause some misrepresntations.

That he went only to Lloyd could actually be interpreted many ways, as we have seen.  That Francis seems to think Lloyd signed off, which discounts CBM and his final picking of the routing, seems to have some discrepancies, although, running it to Lloyd a few nights before CBM came back on April 6 to see if it was legally possible, and making that one of the final five routings, could make some sense.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

One other bit of parsing as regards the pre or post November timeline.

Francis tells us "we had some land".

How could Merion "have some land" if they were still negotiating prior to the sale of the land to Lloyd in December 1910??

Other than that, your point is taken, but as the man who admittedly took the blame for bringing Merion into this discussion, you have a lot to answer for, young man! 

Truly, I think how Merion came into this discussion was simply that those who argued that the process at Merion paralleled the process at NGLA got too defensive when that argument came apart, and it was shown exactly how the process that NGLA differed considerably from the much over-simplified way it was presented.

In any case, it seems that we've come to the end of this discussion, and once Bryan Izatt confirms for me that the only land Merion owned above the 16th tee was the 11 feet on the right side of Golf House Road (which was subsequently deeded to the township) then I think there really are no remaining questions in my mind.

[mike_malone]

 "All roads lead to Merion". I guess even that highway on Long Island.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

If David is serious that all he wants to do is know what really happened in 1910, there is room for serious and thoughtful discussion.  As he says, we know something happened.  And who knows, at some point the details may well fill in through some bit of luck - the kind that led the US to Bin Laden after all the years of frustration.

Until then, I would say, yeah, the PRODUCTIVE discussion is over, even if the discussion doesn't end.

[JESII]

If you guys want to exit the conversation, fine. If you figure getting no feedback from me for a day means I'm out, sorry. So let me know if you're done and I'm OK with that.

A couple questions for you to consider if you're interested.

1) Was the "committee" that was formed in January 1911 under the chain of command of the MCCGA? Or just the old MCC?

2) When do you guys think Lloyd found himself "with decision-making authority"?

3) Assuming when Francis says "we had some land to the West" that "WE" he was referring to was Merion (or the committee), do you realize they didn't "HAVE" any land until July 1911? Lloyd took title FOR HDC...not for Merion. It was still under HDC's umbrella until Merion bought it the following summer.

Just some items that might be worth discussing regarding the timeline...

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

What these guys consider "thoughtful discussion" seems to just some more petty shots at me, along with even more misrepresentations.  Brauer just cannot seem to stop misrepresenting and misunderstanding my position.  Brauer claims:

I remember I really started to think that David's arguments were going south when he spent time saying that they really didn't want houses fronting the golf course, but with the golf course in the back yards. At length, this was one of his arguments as to why the road wouldn't have been as drawn originally, but mostly using 1950's real estate planning ideas.

What a farce.  My essay noted that from June 1910 on, the houses surrounding the golf course weregoing to be facing the golf course!  This was part of the deal!  The golf course was essentially the centerpiece of their development and they were counting on it to lift property values.  He is so clueless he cannot even get this correct.
_____________________________

As for your questions, if memory serves I believe the Construction Committee was nothing but a subcommittee formed under Lesley's Golf Committee.    That is one of the things that makes this story so strange.   Apparently there is never a mention in Merion's records during this time period of Wilson having anything to do with designing the course.  

The "decision-making authority" bit is nothing but a distraction.   Lloyd was the point-guy throughout this entire process, and was the one that was negotiating the land deal with HDC.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

To be clear, I was mentioning some posts you made on one of the Merion threads when I spoke of your arguing about HDC possibly being better off with lots behind.

As with most of your proclamations that I somehow am a farse, anyone who wants to can look it up.  I recall those posts vividly, but not so well to have quoted you exactly.

But, typical of your tactics, I say you posted something, (not clearly enough perhaps) and you start arguing that it wasn't in your essay, just to argue.  If I quote your essay verbatim, you argue its not your full position based on things you have written somewhere else.  I have no doubt that you like to argue, and you like to parse words any way you can to make sure you can tell the world that every other poster is wrong in some way.

Actually, I recall my father used to tell me that the truth of a response is usually inverse to the number of words used to make it.  I think of that every time I read one of David's long winded posts.  And, while not direct evidence that he is being untruthful, just looking at his posts reminds me of Dad's wisdom over and over.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff,

To be clear, you have repeatedly misattributed things to me during this thread and others, and have done so again here. As usual you have no understanding of or familiarity with the facts, so you just sort of glean or vaguely recall some garbage from something you half remember and and probably didn't understand anyway, and next thing you know you are spouting off about what I think and what I don't think.   Your goal here seems to prove me wrong about any little thing and you repeatedly stoop to misrepresenting my position to try and create the false impression of success in so doing.    Ironically, you make more major errors in most of your attempts to prove me wrong than I have made in my essay and in the years of discussing it.

I am not arguing "just to argue"  but rather to set the record straight, in case anyone might believe that you have any credibility whatsoever when it comes to accurately stating my position.  

So if you don't like me arguing, a simple solution would be for you to just knock it off.  You obviously aren't capable of honestly and accurately presenting my viewpoint, and since I am more than willing to present it myself, your lame attempts at so doing are not only insulting, they are unnecessary.  

As you say, anyone can look it up, so there is no need for you to continue to pretend you are some sort of objective spokesperson for what I think.

[Jeff_Brauer]

A simpler solution would be for you to admit there are no documents tying CBM to Merion in 1910, and/or admit your essay was a larger matter of intuiting a few morsels into things they are not.

I will give you credit for at least honestly believing your theory, whereas others would not.  But again, in rereading your essay a few weeks ago, I was simply surprised at how much you qualified it, assumed it, etc. and how that could lead to years of ongoing debate.  Like you, I am trying to keep the record straight, at least as I see it.

So, no, I am not unbiased at this point, but I am not being dishonest either.  Nor am I incapable of dealing with facts.   And speaking of that, what's with your continuted proclamations of "the facts as I understand them."  What does THAT mean?  Lastly, I am not some rube that you proclaim I am either.

I have broken down your essay and responses on a point by point basis and you have trouble answering simply and straightforwardly, so yeah, I presume you think its a good idea I stop in the name of love......of your own flawed essay.

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