[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

If the letter was in any way germane to any of the items at issue here you can be assured David would have already posted it.   So, expect a big yawn when it's revealed.

David,

I speak solely for myself and barely can keep up with reading and responding here.   My personal email box is awash in unread mail about this stuff.    Wayne thinks I'm nuts for still posting on this board, and Tom probably feels the same....so be it.

In that vein, earlier you declined Shivas' request to reprint the Whigham Country Life article here from George Bahto's book because you didn't feel comfortable doing so.

It's the same deal here for me with unpublished stuff from Wayne and Tom's book.   

If CBM was alive and didn't wish his stuff from his book to be posted here I'd respect his wishes, but alas...

And c'mon...knock of the insults and please just stick to the factual evidence.

Thanks.

[Mike Cirba]

I've gotta run out, but I'd like to quickly go back to the idea that the land swap happened before November.

Richard Francis told us that they had placed the first 13 holes and were struggilng to place the final five of their intended championship course.   They had just used up their first par three on the back nine with #13.  

I'd ask folks to think about the insanity of trying to fit those five holes into the remaining land if none of the land of the triangle was under their control at that time...if indeed their working property ended just past the 17th green.    

Frankly, they would have been certifiable, especially since CBM had already recommended to them that much could be made of the quarry.

Instead, I'd like to ask folks to consider what it meant to any routing plan when it was determined that a "Lady's Aid" as it's know, or alternate route around the quarry was needed on hole 16.

The following depicts what I think happened.   When the land was originally configured, no one saw the need to do that, and everyone thought they'd have enough width to do at least an out and back routing configuration on that part of the property, and indeed, it is possible as seen in this drawing, provided that the alternate fairway (which is original) on 16 wasn't needed.

It should also be noted that the original 15th tee was over just to the left past the 14th green.

I think all the evidence is very clear that the swap simply widened the top part to fit in most of the 14th green, the whole left side of the 15th fairway, and gave back the land across the street from the clubhouse, essentially fitting in the final five holes.

[JESII]

Mike,

Your suggestions fail for two reasons:

1) of course it was difficult to route the course (those 5 holes) in that area...that's the point. Freeing up the triangle let it fall into place...just as Francis says. I don't understand why you refuse to take him at his word!!!

2) if a "ladies aid on 16 was so incredibly vital to the play of the hole, and worthy of restructuring the entire land transaction, why did they build longer forced carries on the 17th and 18th holes with no ladies aids?

Just wonderin'...

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

You might want to add a No. 3.   As usual, Mike forgets that they also had all of the land across from the clubhouse to choose from.  In any case his placement of the 14th green over on number 16 is an absolute abCirbaty.

We know what the swap entailed,   Merion traded the land across from the clubhouse (now on the other side of the road) for the triangle up in the corner.   There is no reason to doubt him on this.  

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I do take Francis at his word.

And, it wasn't just difficult to route the final five holes in the supposed space left if none of the triangle was in play at that time.   It was impossible.   They would have been certifiably insane to have routed 13 holes knowing full well they only had land just beyond the quarry to their north to play with.   Absolutely insane, Jim.

But Francis was right...

Merion traded a plot of land that was about 95 yards at it's widest point and 310 yards in length (as seen on the November 15th, 1910 map)  for land that was 130 yards at its widest point and 190 yards long at the base of the "triangle" as seen on today's golf course.

They also received land west of that Land Plan that today makes up the left side of the 15th fairway down the length of it, as well as the left side of the 14th green and slightly below, and gave back all the land across the street from the clubhouse up the 14th fairway (the fine homes along Golf House Road) as part of the overall shift of the perceived western border from what was drawn originally on the November 15th, 1910 Land Plan.

Do you really think Francis was going to go into that level of detail to explain all of that in a short summation in a 1950 US Open preview article?

That exchange of land is really pretty obvious simply by looking at the proposed, curving symmetrical roads on each side of the HDC development between what was proposed in November 15th, 1910, and what got moved around and built after the Francis brainstorm on the modern aerial immediately following, with the roads "as built" shown in blue.







Here's the November 15th, 1910 Land Plan superimposed by Bryan Izatt (yellow road lines are mine) over today's golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike, et., al.,

Can anyone superimpose the course on the land plot, when the old 13th or 14th holes existed ?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

This 1948 map may show it even better.   Notice the change in the "triangle" between what was proposed in November 15th, 1910 and what was built.

The triangle was simply shortened, and widened, to the exact dimensions quoted by Francis of 130 yards by 190 yards from the original 95 yards by 310 yards, with the other part of the "give back" being the pregnant bulge down across from the clubhouse.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

This is pretty crude, admittedly, and I'm sure someone will get all in a huff, but this is a representation of the locations of the  original 1912 1st, 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th holes, the latter of which finished behind the clubhouse along today's driveway.

Francis tells us that those holes in the routing were all in place, through 13, when he solved his riddle of how to fit the last five holes.

So, you have to put yourself on that 13th green as a starting point if you want to go through what is an interesting routing exercise.

My contention is that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to route five reasonable golf holes, much less championship golf holes from there if at least some of the land of the triangle wasn't already in play.   I'd further contend that the routers would have to have been certifiably insane to think they could do it if they really painted themselves into the corner some here are contending.

I'd like to see you, or anyone, really...attempt to do it if you think I'm wrong.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Always hate it if I am misrepresenting someone, as David claims in his Reply #1645  (David)

"Like when Brauer blatantly misrepresents my take on the quarry blasting"


It was spurred by this comment in Reply #1627 (Jeff)

If you read David's theory, they were out there blasting dyamite before they owned the property, to justify his theory on the timing of the Francis land swap.  Kind of a really big, loud soil sample dig!


From David’s essay:

On November 14, 1910, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported that Merion had acquired “130 acres” of land for a new golf course…..

Given Francis’ description of the timing of the quarryman’s blasting, and given that he eventually served on the Construction Committee, it has long been assumed that the “swap” occurred while Construction Committee was in the process of building the course. But the supposed land exchange must have occurred  much earlier, before Merion secured the land, which was before Merion appointed Wilson and his Construction Committee.The supposed land swap must have occurred prior to mid-November 1910, when Merion obtained an option from Haverford Development Company. This was six weeks before the purchase was finalized


Francis and Lloyd had been fine-tuning the layout plan before Merion secured the land…..The Francis land “swap” allowed them to complete the routing plan. All before November 10, 1910.


This is where I got my statement from, again, straight from the source.  Not sure how I misrepresented David's position.

Also have a question, and that is if Francis was appointed to the same construction committee (maybe, or maybe not later, based on his word "added" no earlier than January 1911 why should we presume he was involved earlier, but we cannot presume Wilson was?  

After all, there is no record of either being involved, so it seems a bit, uh, disingenous (sorry) to portray a lesser member of the committee as being involved pre committee, but the head wasn't?

Anyway, if someone can tell me  what record there is to back up the Lloyd and Francis routing thoery, or how it was I misrepresented David's own words by nearly quoting them, then I am (like Ross Perot) all ears.  I certainly didn't mean to misquote him, but if they were blasting before Nov 1910 as his essay suggests, I wonder how they would know that they were blasting the 16th green, given CBM wasn't approving the final routing until April of the next year.

[DMoriarty]

This is beyond idiotic.  Mike is regressing about three years and is launching into all his old disproven theories.  Again.  He is  way off on his distances and apparently has no concept that PRIOR TO THE SWAP Merion had more land across for the clubhouse in which to fit the holes. Yet he continues to use post swap boundaries for pre-swap claims!   And there is no excuse for his phony cut and pastes.  It it has been measured repeatedly, including by Bryan, and all REASONABLE ACCOUNTS indicate there was plenty of room for a green and a tee!  

Mike is no closer to reconciling his silly theories to the Francis statement now than he was three years ago!

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

Mike neglects to mention that prior to that 1946 map Merion bought more land up in that corner!  So his latest comparison to 1946 is inapt at best.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Put up or shut up.

Let's see you route five reasonable holes for an intended Championship course on whatever measured land you think was applicable that doesn't include any of the triangle land.

Better yet, let's see you route five reasonable holes of any type.

Whoever routed the course would have to have been certifiably insane to box themselves into that corner by routing the first 13 holes (as Francis clearly stated) and leaving themselves with not nearly enough room with that big quarry to do the rest if none of that triangle land was in play at the time.

The only thing "disproven" around here has been your specious, ever-changing theroy.

So, here's your opportunity to prove us all wrong.

Have at it, dude.

[DMoriarty]

As usual Brauer doesn't know the facts but that doesn't stop himself from pontificating about how I was wrong in my essay, no matter how irrelevant his point may be. I've told him repeatedly that a site formatting change garbled the essay, yet he is so fixated on trying to prove something - anything - from my essay wrong, that he apparently cannot help repeatedly cherry picking an out of context sentence or two, and then making all sorts of idiotic proclamations which are contradicted by the essay itself!  

I never claimed that Merion was out there blasting on the property before they even purchased the property.  If the Francis recollection of the timing of the blast was correct, then it was likely HDC, not Merion, who did the blasting.  And, as usual, the portion of the essay that Jeff has chosen to cherry pick isn't even the portion where I address this issue.  

Why do you all suppose he is so fixated on trying to prove some part of my essay wrong?  He has already admitted that CBM and HJW played a major role in designing the course, so his purposes here seem beyond petty to me.   If he wants to continue on his petty mission to nitpick at my essay at least find a copy of the real thing and address it in an IMO of his own.  As it is, each of his theories about how I was wrong contains more errors than the whole of my essay!  

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Read it all again and I think I cut and pasted the relevant portions.  If you can, please show me other parts of it, but I don't think I missed any.

I agree that IF the blasting occurred prior to Nov, HDC had owned the Johnson Farm for a few years (?) and they would be legally entitled to do blasting at their own will.

Petty?  There is still a major disagreement on who and when the routing took place.  Your piece contradicts much of the club evidence, actually offers little direct evidence of all the routing work you say took place from August 1910 (purchas of Dallas Estate to finalize the basic parcel) and Nov 14, 1910. 

I keep posting your piece to give you a chance to show us where the evidence comes from to back up your strongly held beliefs.  You fail miserably.  Go pound sand!

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,

You were wrong and you did not post the relevant portions.  It certainly doesn't surprise me that you cannot figure this out for yourself.  As for yet another request for me to do your due diligence, I though old you I was done jumping through hoops for you?

Your only purpose here is try and prove me wrong. You aren't even bothering to pretend your goal is to figure out what happened.  You have become almost as pathetic as your buddy.

[DMoriarty]

The only thing "disproven" around here has been your specious, ever-changing theroy.

So, here's your opportunity to prove us all wrong.

Have at it, dude.

Right after Mike throws out his latest of dozens of different theories on this single issue, he has the nerve to accuse me of changing my theory?  What is this, the Twilight Zone? 

Apparently Mike hasn't quite figured out that THE REASON THEY NEEDED THE SWAP IS BECAUSE THE HOLES DID NOT FIT!   And likely  reason they did not fit was because there wasn't quite enough north south length for 15 and 16.   

As for his demand that I route his course, if they couldn't make it fit the, what would it prove if I could or couldnt? Anyway,  I'll file his demand with all of Brauer's demands. 

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Sane men do not route 13 holes when it would be obvious to ANYONE that there isn't enough room to route the final 5 if the property line ended just beyond the 17th green as your entire theory is based on.

Jim,

Where exactly could they build alternate routes on 17 and 18?

Besides, 17 was a carry, but from a cliff-top tee with a long descent and about 150 yards of carry to reach a reasonable lie.

From the original members tee, 18 was 410 yards and required about a 155 yard carry up a 20 foot rise to reach the fairway.

Neither was exactly unreasonable compared to 16.

16 was 415 from the members tee and could play as long as 435 as it did in the 1916 US Amateur.

They were playing with hickory shafts.

A good player driving the ball in the 250 range was left with a carry of 165 to 185 over the quarry.

Weaker players driving 220 had carries of significantly further.

For all these reasons, it was determined that an alternate route was necessary.

[JESII]

Can we re-title this thing "Twilight Zone! - only enter if you're prepared to have your brain melt!"?

[JESII]

A major cog in the wheel of a pre-November 15 Swap is the ownership issue. "Why would they be able to blast away rock on someone else's property...?" I've argued that the personal relationship Lloyd likely had with HDC would facilitate everybody wanting to do what they can to make th edeal work, but more important, or technically inarguable, is that the land title didn't actually transfer to Merion until June or July 1911.

Lloyd took title as a representative of HDC, not of Merion in December 1910. He was clearly a bridge to make sure it all worked out well, but it cannot be argued that the blasting would not have happened until Merion owned it unless we're arguing that date to be after the summer purchase by MCCGA.

[JESII]

The following letter from Thos. DeWitt Cuyler, Esq., was ordered to be spread in full
on the minutes, viz.,

Philadelphia, December 21, 1910.
Mr. Allen Evans,
President, Merion Cricket Club,
Haverford, Pa

My dear Sir:

Re Merion Cricket Club Golf Association,

In accordance with Mr. Lloyd‘s request, I enclose herewith letter from the Haverford
Development Company of November 10th and copy of your reply thereto showing the
terms of the agreement to purchase the land for the golf grounds. I also enclose copy
of my letter to you of November 23rd. As I have duplicates of these three papers, I
would thank you to return them or copies of them to me.

I would report that proceedings for the incorporation of the Merion Cricket Club Golf
Association are underway with a slight modification of the details of my letter of
November 23rd.

In regard to the title of the property the boundaries of the land to be acquired being as
yet uncertain owing to the fact that the golf course has not been definitely located, it
was found advisable that the Haverford Development Company should take the title in
Mr. Lloyd‘s name, so that the lines could be revised subsequently. I would thank you
to let me know as soon as the boundaries have been determined upon. (bold & color for emphasis mine)

I understand that as no cash will be needed for some months, the issuance of the
second mortgage bonds can be postponed until after the boundaries of the property
have been determined upon.

I should be much obliged if you would at your convenience let me have a copy of the
lease of the Cricket Grounds from the Haverford Land and Improvement Company in
order that the lease of the golf grounds may conform therewith.

Yours very truly,
(Signed) Thomas DeWitt Cuyler

It is moved, seconded and carried that the Board organize, and that the present
Committees continue for the present until the next meeting of the Board.

It is moved, seconded and carried that the Secretary postpone ballot.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

No one is arguing that the blasting took place after July 1911, but it did take place after Lloyd purchased the entire Johnson Farm in late December 1910.

Just a couple of things for clarity.

Here's the 16th hole showing the alternate routes;




Here's on a drawing of the 14th hole you can see where the original 15th tee was located;




Here's the 17th hole from the tee in 1916;




Here's looking from the 17th green back to the tee as well as showing the tee shot on 18;




From this modern aerial you can see the pieces that didn't fit once that alternate route was established; specifically, the 14th green and the 15th tee with a red line going along the original approximate boundary as drawn on the November 15th 1910 Land Plan.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Some more interesting tidbits that might (emphasize might, because we don't agree on anything around here)

I would report that proceedings for the incorporation of the Merion Cricket Club Golf
Association are underway with a slight modification of the details of my letter of
November 23rd.

In regard to the title of the property the boundaries of the land to be acquired being as
yet uncertain owing to the fact that the golf course has not been definitely located, it
was found advisable that the Haverford Development Company should take the title in
Mr. Lloyd‘s name, so that the lines could be revised subsequently. I would thank you
to let me know as soon as the boundaries have been determined upon. (bold & color for emphasis mine)

I understand that as no cash will be needed for some months, the issuance of the
second mortgage bonds can be postponed until after the boundaries of the property
have been determined upon.

I should be much obliged if you would at your convenience let me have a copy of the
lease of the Cricket Grounds from the Haverford Land and Improvement Company in
order that the lease of the golf grounds may conform therewith.

Yours very truly,
(Signed) Thomas DeWitt Cuyler

It is moved, seconded and carried that the Board organize, and that the present
Committees continue for the present until the next meeting of the Board.

It is moved, seconded and carried that the Secretary postpone ballot.


What do you make of changing the land agreement a week +/- after the basic land plan was submitted to the members?

That the boundaries had not been determined?  How could the land swap have taken place?

The request that the lease of the golf grounds conforms to the Haverford lease?

That the committees remained until the board of the new club was formed and that the ballot do do so was postponed? (actually, I think this just confirms that the construction committee formed in January.

That said, is there any evidence that Francis was on the land committee (forgot the name at the moment) or that Lloyd himself was in any way responsible for routing the course as David claims in his essay?

All of the points above cannot be reasonably reconciled to anything other than the routing being finalized well after Nov 1910.  I am sure someone will chime in to say otherwise though.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

Yes, it seems clear and obvious but that's never been a factor here.    


Jim,

I do not think you understand the significance of the point I made about that 310 yard linear dimension on that triangle versus the 190 yard dimension. It is really important because that linear dimension area covers some fixed points on the ground (stone monuments and the middle of College Ave) that have not changed for many years going back before MCC came to that land.
 
The 310 versus the 190 yard dimension is really important because they are both provable!!  They are provable by a series of deeds runs over an extended period of time and they are recorded by the metes and bounds that appear on any deed.
 
Try to look at it this way:
 
1. That linear dimension (310 yards) exists on that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan (that's provable---eg land to the west of it is colored in green and goes all the ways to College Ave) and it existed on the metes and bounds of Lloyd's December 1910 deed (he owned the land up there under College Ave from the McFadden place over to the Taylor or Davis farm (the dimensions of the Johnson Farm at the top of the L)).
 
2. It no longer existed when that road was built and dedicated (it got reduced from 310 yards to 190 yards). That effectively reduced Merion's ownership and use in any way of the top 120 yards of that original 310 yard linear dimension due to the road and its dedication on both sides of the middle by MCC and HDC (the road and its dedicated easement is app 7-8 yards wide).
 
3. If the deed from the transfer of the land from Lloyd to MCCGC Corp in July 1911 reflects the reduction of that linear dimension from 310 to 190 yards, then what does that say and what does it indicate?  It indicates that there was a rearrangement of boundary lines at some point between Dec. 1910 and July 1911.
 
I would say that effectively and provably brackets in time some land dimension change such as the Francis land swap idea, wouldn't you?  It also establishes in time a point before which it could not have happened such as Nov, 15, 1910 or in this case Dec. 1910 when Lloyd took by deed 160 acres of HDC land.

If the course and its effective 120 acres (plus 3 leased =123 acres) that was created by deed in July 1911 was already accomplished before Dec. 1910 or Nov 15, 1910 why would there have been any need for him to do that?  

[JESII]

Jeff,

As we have discussed a few times, our (you and I) disagreement on the possible/likely timing of the routing pivots on one difference of opinion and yours carries all the weight of experience while mine has none. You believe it's impossible that they would have routed the course (hole structure, not specific features) and then drew the lines of what they would buy while I believe, based on the steps taken, that they must have done exactly that. Again, if not for your extensive experience to the contrary I would give your opinion on it very little consideration and it is in fact your opinion which is keeping me engaged in this...because if you're correct, my belief of what happens becomes impossible. I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm trying to let my mind be changed but the arguments put forth are pretty weak.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

But they DID route the golf course and then draw the lines!  

That's what they did between December 1910 and April 1911 when the final routing plan was approved by the Merion Board of Governor's, which then authorized the SPECIFIC purchase of the EXACT 120 acres (plus 3 leased acres) that was completed in July 1911.

ALL of the documents and evidence prior to December 1910 show clearly that NO SUCH boundaries existed prior to then.   All they had prior was the undetermined 117 acres of land at a fixed price that was promised by Connell in November, 1910, and which was then purchased (and encompassed within) by Lloyd in December of 1910 when he bought both the entire Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate.

NGLA did virtually the exact same thing as far as securing a fixed number of undetermined acres at a fixed price within a larger tract first, and then spending the next several months routing the course and staking the boundaries for a purchase that happened months later.

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