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Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1625 on: April 27, 2011, 04:28:00 PM »
Shivas,

Here's the letter in question...please disregard the red underlines;




Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1626 on: April 27, 2011, 04:29:57 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Yes, I do have the November 23rd letter...it's in the "Nature Faker" book.

It's fairly lengthy and talks about all the details of forming a corporation that would lease the land proposed golf golf back to the cricket club and if I keep copying snippets there would be no reason for you to purchase your own copy!  ;)  ;D

Could you post it?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 10:02:42 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1627 on: April 27, 2011, 04:42:27 PM »
Shiv,

We have 90% agreement that the sky is blue!

I have always wondered myself how he could be building 6300 yards or so and telling Merion, with similar aspirations to build 6000 yards.  Now, David went to some length to explain that the individual ideal holes actually total up to a varying yardage well over 6000 yards and he might have a point, but CBM did seem pretty strong on the idea that MCC should only build  6000.  It appears MCC saw right through it, though for they wanted the longer course.

This is pure speculation, too, but given they probably decided they needed more land on that one day visit, like the Dallas estate, I have also wondered if they had him argue for the shorter course in writing ONLY to make it look like they wouldn't need more land than they wanted, again, as a ruse to keep prices down when they went to buy, and presuming the letter might somehow leak out.  A long shot, but maybe they were covering all their bases.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1628 on: April 27, 2011, 05:06:34 PM »
Yep Mike, I'm here...amazing how much/little you miss when you take a day or so off...



My first point is regarding the "immediate" nature of Wilson's actions as speculated about from his February 1 letter. Quite simply they did take 7 months to reach out to Piper after CBM spoke of them. His July 2 letter refers to them. They may well have spoken about it again in January, but you're all suggesting this is such a vital correspondence that they wouldn't have waited. I don't buy it they did wait. They didn't need Piper and Oakley until they knew where they needed to plant "short growing grasses" because Piper and Oakley would be best qualified to tell them which type of grasses to plant.

In connection to this, I have always speculated that Wilson was at least involved in the conversation from the very beginning. To suggest that because he wasn't on the Site Committee means he wasn't involved at all is pretty thin although I don't have any evidence that he was.



My second point is about this timing of the Francis Swap, specifically the reading of his 1950 article. When he says the first 13 were pretty easy but the last 5 were another matter I wonder why this has to mean they had 13 holes laid out and ready to build if they could just figure out where to put 5 more. This seems like a screwy way to go. If you can't fit 18 holes in the area don't you have to re-route the course until you can? Jeff, is it likely that they would have looked at the map and had holes 1 - 13 complete and just various ideas for the last 5 alone? It seems more efficient to have all 18 up in the air until 18 holes can actually fit...no?


Oh, I do have a third point, what on earth could possibly motivate the MCC Board to fraudulently remove HH Barker's activities on their behalf from all internal records?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 05:08:06 PM by Jim Sullivan »

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1629 on: April 27, 2011, 05:52:36 PM »
Shivas,

You haven't been playing close enough attention...my theory is a complete one-off from the two armies at war here...I like a little bit of both.

Also...Feb 1, 1911 isn't cutting it all that close to the spring 1912 growing season...

My speculation on this point is that by this time they knew pretty well where the holes were going to be and wanted to find out what sort of grass to plant once they finalized the holes through the spring and summer.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1630 on: April 27, 2011, 05:53:30 PM »
Jim,

In the case of a site that was divided by a road like Ardmore Ave, I would  think that different parts of the routing could be separated, especially when there was only so much acreage to go around.  I think they knew 1 and 13 were pretty well set, too because the clubhouse was set.

I don't know if that answers your question, or from the viewpoint of the many protagonists here, narrows down when the rough routing was finished.  Based on your question alone, it could have been roughly settled at any time, and someone taking a later look to squeeze out what they could, or done all at once as one of the many routings they made or the five they revised after the NGLA meeting.

My personal theory on it is, given the urgency of the midnight ride to Lloyds, that Francis was struggling with one of the five a night or two before CBM was scheduled to come back April 6.  I think we know the final boundary wasn't done until April something, so we know it wasn't any later than that.  As to how much earlier, well, you decide.  

I think someone did an excersise back on those actual Merion threads about putting the five holes on the property without the land swap (using the back of 17 green as the border, and accounting for the Quarry, etc.  Using that boundary, it seemed pretty awkward, if I recall.  And, we know some kind of triangle was in the parcel by Nov 15., which I believe came about only because they needed to connect golf house road to an existing intersection up north.

But, let the debates begin!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1631 on: April 27, 2011, 06:20:18 PM »
Jeff,

I hope you do know that I place a great deal of weight on your opinion in these discussions because you have been through it, in some form, exponentially more than the rest of us combined. It doesn't mean I always agree with your interpretations or opinions but I do respect the experience that has contributed to them.

Regarding this topic, sure it helps that the split parcel increases the liklihood of a sort of split routing, thanks. I did participate in that excercise of trying to find five holes in the rectangle (the North part of the "L") while didging the quarry and to me, it makes th epoint. The holes were awkward and relatively short. Hence the eye-opening idea/opportunity of swapping some of the western portion of it for the triangle. On the flip side, the narrow triangle as drawn on the November Plan could have contained the same holes only slightly narrower. Why would opening them up with a multi-point re-routing of a yet unbuilt road be the eureka moment?

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1632 on: April 27, 2011, 07:17:23 PM »
Guys,

The answer to the riddle is the same reason CBM thought hed need 110 acres and used about 170.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1633 on: April 27, 2011, 10:01:53 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Yes, I do have the November 23rd letter...it's in the "Nature Faker" book.

It's fairly lengthy and talks about all the details of forming a corporation that would lease the land proposed golf golf back to the cricket club and if I keep copying snippets there would be no reason for you to purchase your own copy!  ;)  ;D

I find it odd you could type out the entire december letter but cannot post the 11/23 letter.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 10:29:08 PM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1634 on: April 27, 2011, 10:25:05 PM »
I would suspect David has a copy of it on his computer. He's been pretty persistent about saving a copy of just about everything that is produced on these threads.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1635 on: April 27, 2011, 11:37:36 PM »
Jim,

I think we debated just how much of a eureka moment it really was.  Francis was being interviewed for the US OPen program, I think, and recounting his one contribution to the design.  It might have been fluffed up a wee bit, no?

Also, as mentioned, they prepared five plans for CBM to review when he came back in April.  I figure the midnight ride might be because CBM was coming the next day, and they had been struggling with coming up with a few acceptable options and he "made it under the wire" before the CB meeting. 

Just a guess, and I do realize it doesn't match all the story as told later by Francis, such as the blasting the next day , which  suggests it was later in construction.  But, if the holes were crappy and unchanged before CBM approved the routing when he got back, why would he proclaim the last seven to be among the best in the world (potentially?)

I think some of those small details will remain a mystery unless someone holds a seance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1636 on: April 28, 2011, 01:42:30 AM »
Shivas,

I appreciate you wading in here, but I hope you realize that much of what two of these guys write is more than a little misleading, especially when they pretend to depict my position.   I'd really appreciate that you just ignore all their putting words in my mouth because chances are very good whatever they say in this regard will be absolutely wrong.  
- Like when Brauer blatantly misrepresents my take on the quarry blasting.
- Or when Brauer pretends that Merion "saw right through" CBM and built a longer course than suggested.  (Merion's course was at best around 6000 yards and they built the holes CBM suggested almost to a tee.)
- Or when, as above, he makes all sorts of ridiculous claims about what I gleaned from this February 1, 1911 letter, even claiming that I think Wilson was in constant contact with CBM between June 1910 January 1911.  All I was addressing from that letter is that CBM and HJW were in contact and discussing the creation of Merion East sometime shortly before February 1, 1911.  The rest is just their usual garbage, fiction, and misrepresentations, and the only purpose it serves is to highlight how little he understands about my position and about what happened.

So please don't rely on their versions of what I think.  Neither has the first clue, even if they were willing to honestly express it.
_____________________________________

As for your list of what we agree upon and don't, if it were only so easy . . .

1.  I think we all agree that in June 1910 CBM and HJW inspected Merion's Ardmore Ave. site at Merion's request, and that CBM sent HG Lloyd a letter containing recommendations.  Beyond that there is bound to be disagreement.

2.  I think we all agree that Merion announced the purchase to their members in mid-November 1911, but when the land was actually purchased and by whom is much more complicated.

3.  I think we all agree that the Construction Committee was created in early 1911 and that Wilson was on that Committee.  

4.  I think we agree that Wilson wrote a letter to Piper on February 1, 2011, copies of which are posted above.

5.  I think we agree that representatives of Merion visited NGLA so that CBM could continue to help the prepare to build their golf course.

6.  I think we agree that CBM and Whigham came back to the property in April 1911 and that they again inspected the land, and that while there CBM and Wilson chose the final routing plan.  Although we are bound to disagree as to what choosing the plan entailed.

7.  I assume we all agree that they had telephones.   I think that MacWood may have even had Wilson's telephone number.

There are a number of other things on which we ought to agree, such as that in late December 1910 or early January 1911 Merion announced to their members that experts were at working planning Merion's golf course.   And that sometime after CBM and HJW returned to Merion to agains inspected the land and to choose the final routing plan, Merion's board was presented with this layout plan and told that it was the one that CBM and HJW had chosen, and that the board authorized the construction of the golf course pursuant to that plan.  

There is more that we should agree upon, but somehow I doubt we will even agree on this much.

Brauer's theory on what they CBM and Merion would have had to talk about during the interim is very odd.  I never claimed Wilson was communicating with CBM about the design during this period and I would be very surprised if he was.   But I would be shocked if Merion had no communication with CBM during this period.  Particularly, I expect that Merion sent CBM a copy of the CONTOUR MAP.   In his June letter, CBM mentioned that it would take a contour map for him and HJW to be certain whether a first class course would fit, and we know that at some point before February 1 Merion had that contour map drawn up, because Wilson, who was contacting Piper at CBM's direction, had a contour map sent to Piper.
_________________________________________

As for your theory regarding the 6000 yard course, it is interesting speculation, but I don't think that it was the case.  CBM wasn't building courses for professional golfers playing the tips of the back tees, and I don't think he was describing courses that way either.  So when he refers to a 6000 yard course, I think he had a course like NGLA in mind. In other words, I think he considered it to be around a 6000 yard course.  As he said in Scotland's Gift, when they first started playing NGLA it was, "roughly speaking, 6100 yards" and the first tournament was played at around 6100 yards, even though the first scorecard listed the championship length at over 6300.

In his 1907 article on the Ideal Golf Links, his ideal holes added up to around around 6020 yards.   But in both these instances, there was ample room to make the course longer "at will."   I explained above how CBM listed the yardage about 40 yards less than he could have on the Alps hole because to him that was the proper playing length at that time. And CBM "measured from the middle of the teeing ground to the middle of the putting-green.  With proper teeing space and putting greens each hole could be lengthened at will by 20 to 30 yards."  

So despite what Mike, Jeff, and others would have us believe there was no magic cap on 6000 yards.  Nor was CBM trying to jam a short course down Merion's throat.  The average of the hole distances listed is about 6000 yards but the range goes up to 6300 yards.   If anything, Merion's course was barely as long as CBM suggested, which is to be expected, given that, as he expressed in his letter, their problem was fitting a first class 18 hole course on the acreage they proposed buying.

(To give just one example of how far off Merion's measures were, the old 10th hole was listed at 385 yards.  In a straight line it measures more like 305-315, and if the hole had a dogleg it was very slight.   A number of other holes seem to have been off by 10% or more.)

_________________________________________

Jim,  I don't understand your take on "immediately."   No doubt they waited to contact Piper/Oakley (who were NOT mentioned in the June letter) but it is Wilson who attached a sense of immediacy to the whole thing in the letter, as if he had just spoken to CBM.  I cannot imagine a scenario where letting eight months lapse could be called "immediately."  

As for the swap, there was plenty of room for that green and tee on the 1910 plan.  As usual, Brauer isn't familiar with the facts and has gotten himself all confused and is making no sense.   He even admits that the pre-swap border was at the back of the 17th green which essentially concedes the entire argument.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1637 on: April 28, 2011, 07:47:11 AM »
I would suspect David has a copy of it on his computer. He's been pretty persistent about saving a copy of just about everything that is produced on these threads.

I don't believe that is the case. I don't recall ever seeing that letter posted, and if David had it I'm pretty sure we would have all seen it by now.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1638 on: April 28, 2011, 07:48:25 AM »
There is no way the pre-swap border was behind the 17th green.  More later.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1639 on: April 28, 2011, 07:58:41 AM »
Tom,

I'm shocked that you guys are interested in this topic yet haven't spent the 75 bucks to buy the book. 

You don't have to agree with analysus or conclusions to want to view the evidence.

Amazing.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1640 on: April 28, 2011, 08:38:24 AM »
I can't believe I haven't received a complementary copy since I'm listed in the acknowledgements. In the past with similar situations the author has sent me a freebee. Oh well.

If you don't want to post it for whatever reason so be it. Obviously it has nothing to do with the Flynn book since you've posted one letter from the book already. I've never quite understood why you and the others have selectively realeased information.


Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1641 on: April 28, 2011, 11:47:04 AM »
Nything I've posted here has already been posted in whole or in part by one or both of the authors.

That's where I draw the line, Tom.

If you're interested in this topic, I'd buy the book.a

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1642 on: April 28, 2011, 11:50:17 AM »
That should of read "hasn't".


Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1643 on: April 28, 2011, 11:54:57 AM »

If you don't want to post it for whatever reason so be it.

Obviously it has nothing to do with the Flynn book since you've posted one letter from the book already.

I've never quite understood why you and the others have selectively realeased information.

Tom,

I think "selective posting" has led to a good deal of suspicion and animosity amongst the participants.

The natural assumption, when there's a refusal to post a document in one's possession, is that the document contains information that the possesor doesn't want others to see.

Otherwise, why not post the document ?


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1644 on: April 28, 2011, 12:49:12 PM »
I can't believe I haven't received a complementary copy since I'm listed in the acknowledgements. In the past with similar situations the author has sent me a freebee. Oh well.

Incredibly, the two Faker authors didn't even have the common sense or the decency to list you in the Acknowledgements. Your ideas, analysis, and research are scattered throughout the .pdf, and are sometimes the only reasonable glimmers in what is oftentimes a pretty dismal work.  Yet the only credit they bother to give you is one mention of you providing them with census records records relating to Flynn and Pickering.   Unbelievable!   My guess is that they'd have removed this credit as well had they ever bothered to proofread.  

You are not the only who did not receive proper credit or acknowledgment.  With that single mention you received more credit than I did.  They had no qualms about pilfering my analysis, ideas, and research but didn't bother to acknowledge me at all.    Oh well, I should probably consider myself lucky.

But it goes to show what these "gentlemen" are all about.  Imagine how much they have taken from these pages  --except for the impressive collection of Flynn plans most of what actually makes sense in that pdf can be directly traced to you, me, or others on this website.   Yet they have the nerve to try and charge us $70 bucks for what is essentially a document dump from Wayne's hard drive?  How unjustifiably self-important can they get?

Quote
If you don't want to post it for whatever reason so be it. Obviously it has nothing to do with the Flynn book since you've posted one letter from the book already. I've never quite understood why you and the others have selectively realeased information.

This is especially fascinating from Mike, who makes no qualms about actually photocopying and posting page after page of copyrighted works all the time.  I guess it is different when your buddies want to continue to play games with documents.    

Anyway, I was curious as to whether Mike would play games about this and he has answered that.  I'll post their transcription of the letter when I get a chance.  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 01:18:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1645 on: April 28, 2011, 02:08:48 PM »
David,

It's very simple.

If either of the author's previously put something in whole or part on this board previously, I have no compunction with reproducing it during these discussions.

Neither author participates here any longer and I'm respectful of their personal wishes.

If you don't feel bound by the same constraints, please do as you wish.

Glad to hear you bought a copy.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1646 on: April 28, 2011, 03:21:22 PM »
Pat,

And by that, I presume you mean Obama's resistance to posting his full birth certificate until now?

PS - how is life with the gorgeous alien women?

David,

Your post 1645 sounds fairly reasonable right through Point No. 7. Maybe not all of the opening and closing PP, but as I have blatantly speculated before, maybe we aren't as far apart in views as our antagonistic posts suggest.  You will have to refresh my memory on your quarry blasting theory, since as I recall it, you figured it was before they bought the land, and not in April as construction started, at least at one time.  As always, I could be wrong and occaisionally am.

Shiv,

Please remember that when David says I misrepresent him, for the most part, I have been cut and pasting either David's essay or recent posts, and simply asking him the inelegant questions about backing it up with contemporaneous docments directly addressing supposed events, not his "logic."  If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1647 on: April 28, 2011, 03:25:42 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I am not interested in your lame excuses or faulty assumptions and I did not ask for your permission.  

And quit pretending the Faker authors aren't participating.  You guys are in near constant contact with them about this thread!  

As for your speculation about whether I have wasted $70 dollars on a document dump from Wayne's hard drive, go pound sand. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 03:30:10 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1648 on: April 28, 2011, 03:36:10 PM »
Go pound sand?

Okay David, now you've made it personal.  (insert smiley - that just struck me as funny and I suspect Mike will respond with nothing less than Nanny Nanny Boo Boo)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1649 on: April 28, 2011, 04:47:48 PM »
I can't believe I haven't received a complementary copy since I'm listed in the acknowledgements. In the past with similar situations the author has sent me a freebee. Oh well.

Incredibly, the two Faker authors didn't even have the common sense or the decency to list you in the Acknowledgements. Your ideas, analysis, and research are scattered throughout the .pdf, and are sometimes the only reasonable glimmers in what is oftentimes a pretty dismal work.  Yet the only credit they bother to give you is one mention of you providing them with census records records relating to Flynn and Pickering.   Unbelievable!   My guess is that they'd have removed this credit as well had they ever bothered to proofread.  

You are not the only who did not receive proper credit or acknowledgment.  With that single mention you received more credit than I did.  They had no qualms about pilfering my analysis, ideas, and research but didn't bother to acknowledge me at all.    Oh well, I should probably consider myself lucky.

But it goes to show what these "gentlemen" are all about.  Imagine how much they have taken from these pages  --except for the impressive collection of Flynn plans most of what actually makes sense in that pdf can be directly traced to you, me, or others on this website.   Yet they have the nerve to try and charge us $70 bucks for what is essentially a document dump from Wayne's hard drive?  How unjustifiably self-important can they get?

Quote
If you don't want to post it for whatever reason so be it. Obviously it has nothing to do with the Flynn book since you've posted one letter from the book already. I've never quite understood why you and the others have selectively realeased information.

This is especially fascinating from Mike, who makes no qualms about actually photocopying and posting page after page of copyrighted works all the time.  I guess it is different when your buddies want to continue to play games with documents.    

Anyway, I was curious as to whether Mike would play games about this and he has answered that.  I'll post their transcription of the letter when I get a chance.  

My bad, I thought someone said I was in the acknowledgments. Never mind.

I appreciate you posting the letter, thanks.

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