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DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1400 on: April 14, 2011, 03:19:11 PM »
Quit misrepresenting what I said, Mike.  I didn't suggest that "at best perhaps" anything!  Negotiations oftentimes continue long after some sort of basic agreement or understanding between the parties is already in place but not yet formalized.  In a situation like this one, negotiations may have continued long after the developer agreed he was willing to sell CBM some land.  

Where does the November 1st, NY Sun article say he was speaking to a crowd of people?

Don't you ever tire of petty, misleading little games?    

The Nov. 1, 1901 Brooklyn Daily Eagle article stated,  ". . . Charles B. MacDonald, in answer to a question put to him before the crowd in the lounging room at the Garden City club house, said that he had inspected land for the ideal links project in various sections around Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Hills."
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 03:22:12 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1401 on: April 14, 2011, 06:55:38 PM »
David,

We know that negotiations continued after CBM obtained agreement from the company to sell him the land.

CBM tells us that the company agreed to sell 205 acres and that CBM would be permited to choose the land that best suited his purpose.

That he subsequently studied the land again, selected the land that would best accomodate his classical holes, and THEN he staked the land he finally decided that he wanted.

It's all on page 187

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1402 on: April 14, 2011, 07:11:43 PM »
Don't you ever tire of petty, misleading little games?    

The Nov. 1, 1901 Brooklyn Daily Eagle article stated,  ". . . Charles B. MacDonald, in answer to a question put to him before the crowd in the lounging room at the Garden City club house, said that he had inspected land for the ideal links project in various sections around Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Hills."


David,

Misleading?!?   You are the one who stated that the November articleS had CBM talking to a crowd of people.

That's not true...the Brooklyn Daily Eagle article states that, but the NY Sun article, which contains more specific information does not.


DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1403 on: April 14, 2011, 07:23:13 PM »
Yes, misleading.   And petty.  But I guess your post speaks to the pettiness, whether you explicitly mention it or not.

Stop the games Mike.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1404 on: April 14, 2011, 07:55:12 PM »







Mike,

Are these the two articles from November 1 that tell you something definitive? I continue to be amazed. Which one was it that was "more specific" than the other?

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1405 on: April 14, 2011, 08:09:41 PM »
Jim,

Wouldn't you think the site in Western Shinnecock Hills near Good Ground is possibly the Canal Site?

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1406 on: April 14, 2011, 08:14:15 PM »
Mike,

Could have been. Do you think it's possible he would have agreed to buy the Sebonac Neck site so soon after not having made an offer anywhere at all? Seems like quick action for someone who up to that point had moved slowly and dilligently and stated immediately that they were going to continue to move slowly and dilligently...course not opening for a couple years etc...

I think the two November 1 articles are useless!

V. Kmetz

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1407 on: April 14, 2011, 08:21:12 PM »
It might sound ridiculous or impertinent, but I assure you it's just informational...

What is at issue here?

Is it a matter of who did what or just when? and if it's a matter of when - what is the difference in the contrasting opinions, how much time?

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1408 on: April 14, 2011, 08:24:32 PM »
Just when.

A few months at the beginning, no difference on the completion/bulk of work on the ground.

Some believe David and Mike are using this as a proxy for their Merion debate, I'm not and don't have an opinion on whether or not they are...I just think they don't like each other and are unable to have a grown up conversation...

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1409 on: April 14, 2011, 09:31:34 PM »
Mike,

Just out of curiosity, where is the reference to CBM making any comments at the Lesley Cup?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1410 on: April 14, 2011, 09:42:59 PM »
Bryan,

CBM sequenced the attempts at acquisition.

First the 120 acre site was targeted, and when that bid was rejected, CBM turned his attention to the 450 acres at Sebonack Neck.

Posting newpaper articles of CBM's supposed conversations with members and others can't be considered as "factual".

Time and time again these newspaper articles are seriously flawed.

Mike accepts those newspaper articles as "fact" that agree with his position..... at that time.
Subsequently, he may disavow the accuracy of the same article.

CBM wrote in some detail, the sequenced process of purchasing the land for NGLA

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1411 on: April 15, 2011, 12:19:11 AM »
Patrick,

I understand.  Why can't we get Mike to understand?


Mike,

IMHO, what you are doing is to take two newspaper snippets of questionable veracity and inferring that their contents means that Alvord and CBM didn't have an agreement.  Even if the two snippets are factually true doesn't prove in any way that there wasn't a deal.  If they are true, all they prove is that CBM said he was considering other sites.  The articles provide no insight into why he would have said that at that time.  Just because you want to infer it, doesn't mean it is true.  We don't KNOW that there wasn't a back channel deal.  You can take your inference as fact if you want, but that doesn't make it so.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1412 on: April 15, 2011, 12:30:49 AM »


Mike,

If I understand your position correctly (not sure I do) are you saying that on November 1 that CBM was still considering the Canal site (as well as Montauk) and that his offer on 120 acres was rejected some time after Nov 1. 

You've pointed out many times that CBM originally in 1904 mooted 110 acres for the golf course, and he subsequently wrote that he offered on a 120 acre site for the golf course near the Canal.  We KNOW that the course as built occupies a little more than 200 acres.  When do you suppose he figured out that his ideal golf course wasn't going to fit on 110 to 120 acres, and he really needed 75% more space than he originally planned?  If he was offering on 120 acres in early November and "securing" 205 of 450 acres in mid-December, I presume you think that he figured it out between mid-November and mid-December 1906.  What caused the epiphany, do you suppose?


Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1413 on: April 15, 2011, 07:02:19 AM »
I don't believe this sheds any light on this subject, but it is interesting. CH Alison was a member of Oxford & Cambridge Golfing Society team that toured the US in 1903. In 1950 he recalled their visit to Shinnecock.

"In Great Britain in 1903 seaside links were regarded as an unapproachable first class. St.andrews, Hoylake, Prestwick, Sandwich and Muirfield were the big five, and if any were to be added to their number they would be of similar character. In the US this has never been the case. It maybe assumed that the course which O&CGS played were a fair sample of the best of their time, and Shinnecock Hills was the only one of them which was of the sand-dune type. While we were there Mr. Charles Macdonald showed us the neighbouring dunes which the National was made, a bold project which he brought to a successful issue some years later."

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1414 on: April 15, 2011, 08:29:21 AM »
TMac,

Thanks for that snippet.  I think it sheds light on just how long CBM was considering land all over LI.  Oddly, it sort of contradicts his writings that the land was generally considered worthless, if he was already familiar with its dunes characteristics. 

To be honest, one of the funny things about this thread, compared to others, is that some folks who formeraly argued that contemporaneous articles are the cadillac of source material, argue that CBM's recollections many years later are the best source here, and articles are not.  We know that CBM has the year wrong in a few instances, as does Whigham in his eulogy, and it might make sense that CBM has some details (to the level we seek) wrong, either because of the late writing, or just because he is trying to summarize the whole affair in a few pages.

Thus, saying he was "rejected" may not be totally accurate, IMHO, in the sense that a formal offer was made.  I can see his efforts with Alvord being very cooperative, over a long period of time.  Its obvious that it took several years to finally pick out the land.

That said, I am still of the opinion that the Oct article was basically a "scoop" that CBM had narrowed it down to an Alvord site, but the reporter didn't know the exact site, (nor did CBM at that point, although he was close to deciding) so he described the whole area north of the tracks only because that's as much as he could narrow it down.  Again, just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1415 on: April 15, 2011, 09:32:40 AM »
Jim,

A few things.

First, the Lesley Cup was held at Garden City in late October 1906.   It is what the NY Sun snippet called the "intercity" matches.

Here is the entire golf article that appeared in the Sun on that day, and it includes a very interesting synopsis of the changes that Walter Travis made to the course that year, although it doesn't reference him by name.

I'm not sure who the Sun golf reporter was at that time.   Perhaps Joe Bausch knows if he's looking in.

In either case, the writer seems pretty well connected to events both at that club (where CBM was quoted) as well as to golf generally.  

I'm not sure how you can accept the October 15th article which has numerous factual errors on the face of it, was not reported by any other NYC paper, yet totally discount this one, as well as the one in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle the same day that make clear that no deal has yet been done, nor any site officially selected.

I think the only reason you find it wanting is that it punctures your view of how this went down, frankly.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 09:44:57 AM by MCirba »

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1416 on: April 15, 2011, 10:16:34 AM »
Jim,

I'm not sure how you can accept the October 15th article which has numerous factual errors on the face of it, was not reported by any other NYC paper, yet totally discount this one, as well as the one in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle the same day that make clear that no deal has yet been done, nor any site officially selected.

I think the only reason you find it wanting is that it punctures your view of how this went down, frankly.



Mike,

I believe the October article matches Macdonald's description of the events much better than either of the two you are relying on...afterall, it came true and neither of your did.

Macdonald's description, not these unsourced newspaper articles, but his words in Scotland's Gift that have been posted on here so many times.

I think as of October 15th CBM and Alvord had a handshake agreement for 205 acres that CBM was in the process of locating specifically. It discusses maps being made and sent, and who they would be sent to. Just because you don't think that's what actually happened doesn't mean it didn't, afterall it was clearly part of the plan. I didn't come into this with an agenda and don't have one now. I have developed an instinct/conception of what happened and how.

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1417 on: April 15, 2011, 10:21:35 AM »





Mike,

What are these "numerous factual errors"?

I've got 250 acres as one.

But I think purchased is an acceptable equivalent for agreed to buy or secured in this scenario. I know you'll disagree so we can call that a draw. so you've got one and a half. Are there any others? Did he not send maps to exactly those people? Did the author leave one or two people out?

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1418 on: April 15, 2011, 10:32:34 AM »
Mike,

If I understand your position correctly (not sure I do) are you saying that on November 1 that CBM was still considering the Canal site (as well as Montauk) and that his offer on 120 acres was rejected some time after Nov 1.  

You've pointed out many times that CBM originally in 1904 mooted 110 acres for the golf course, and he subsequently wrote that he offered on a 120 acre site for the golf course near the Canal.  We KNOW that the course as built occupies a little more than 200 acres.  When do you suppose he figured out that his ideal golf course wasn't going to fit on 110 to 120 acres, and he really needed 75% more space than he originally planned?  If he was offering on 120 acres in early November and "securing" 205 of 450 acres in mid-December, I presume you think that he figured it out between mid-November and mid-December 1906.  What caused the epiphany, do you suppose?


Bryan,

I also find it odd that you're willing to accept the October 15th article as having some basis in fact, particularly in terms of an agreement of some sort (which was not repeated in any other NYC paper), but are in the Muccian camp of discounting others, lumping them all into the "news articles are crap" bin.

Are we going to do that here, or are we going to use higher standards of discernment to see what facts that we know support which articles?

I do find it funny as Jeff said, how that worm has turned here compared to other threads where news articles were held to be virtually infallible, and worthy of changing attribution records of major club courses.

In any case, let me try to answer your questions, although some is admitted speculation.

First, I doubt that NGLA as built was over 200 acres of golf course.   I recall David measuring it some time back and estimating that it was around 165-170 acres today.

Here's a drawing from back then...it certainly doesn't seem to take up the entire shaded 205 acres, does it?




In fact, CBM himself told us that he didn't use all of the land he bought for the golf course in his 1912 Letter to the Founders, under the heading, "Surplus Land".   He refers to his original Agreement (also reproduced here) where he thought there would be land enough left over for 1.5 acre building lots, which didn't turn out to be the case, obviously.;







This was nothing unusual.  Even by 1915 Max Behr wrote about the amount of land needed for a golf course and talked about the variables of land shape and routing that would play into that determination.    He seems to say that although more is better, about 120 acres of so will work in most cases.

CBM himself also told Merion they could build a first-class course on 120 acres, so we know it was in the range of what he thought.



Nevertheless, we know golf course when completed took up more space than the 110-120 acres CBM himself estimated and wrote that he'd need.

I think this is due to a few reasons.

First, we know that CBM's primary focus was the golf course.   I'm not sure he ever really wanted to build lots for his Founders at all, but probably saw that as a necessary incentive to gaining enough Founding members and seed money to build his dream course.

So, I don't think he shed many tears in scrapping that part of his plan, probably figuring that he could financially compensate them in some other way once things were up and running.

I also think that once he scrapped that idea it really opened up the whole playground for him, and gave him unique opportunities to create width and expanse that was beyond probably what he even envisioned at first.   Playing into that however, was the fact that some of the land was not quite as good as CBM originally hoped, and a lot of dirt was brought in, and swampy areas attempted to be filled, with some of it remaining not very good for golf, and probably not for building lots either.

One other thing that I don't think he estimated was exactly how wide he'd need to make his fairways to accommodate "safe" avenues of play for short hitters and high handicappers playing "around" his hazards.   As such, today the width of some fairways is over 100 yards, which is HUGE, and the scale of the course is impressively huge.

So, as far as the timeframe for when this transition happened?

Personally, I think it happened over the course of the design and early construction phase in 1907 and into 1908.    

I don't see any reason at all to think that CBM added 75% to his estimate between late 1905 and late 1906, nor do I believe that CBM thought the canal site would make a great golf course at 120 acres, but somehow he needed 205 at Sebonac Neck.   It's a ridiculous contention, frankly.

In the end, as Max Behr said, enough land was purchased to incorporate all of the best natural features for golf and then "no concession was made to economy in the use of land."   Once CBM scrapped his building lot plan, he certainly had a LOT to work with.

Interestingly, even in 1915 Behr wrote, "Even so, a considerable part of the 205 acres is not touched by the golf course and is available for other purposes."

Do you think it was simply coincidence that CBM wrote in 1904 he needed 205 acres, was quoted during intervening years as looking for slightly over 200 acres, and purchased exactly 205 acres at the end of the day?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 10:37:29 AM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1419 on: April 15, 2011, 10:57:04 AM »





Mike,

What are these "numerous factual errors"?

I've got 250 acres as one.

But I think purchased is an acceptable equivalent for agreed to buy or secured in this scenario. I know you'll disagree so we can call that a draw. so you've got one and a half. Are there any others? Did he not send maps to exactly those people? Did the author leave one or two people out?

Jim,

Here's what I think is in error here;

1) 250 acres

2) A description of the location of the 250 acre purchase extending at minimum over 1000 acres if David is correct, and extending over miles if you and I are correct.

3) The purchase price of $100,000.   CBM bought the land for $40,000.    Even if the article was referring to how much money had been raised that total was $1,000 x 60 Founders  or $60,000

4) A complete misconception about what CBM's foreign expert friends were doing.   These were the men who provided him with maps and photographs of the great courses, holes, and features abroad.   There is no record of CBM ever sending topo maps to these guys nor does CBM credit them with helping him to select the right property, although he does give some credit to Seth Raynor for his help with the purchase.  

In fact, CBM himself tells us in SG that he decided to purchase the land based on multiple rides with Whigham, provided they could get it for the right price (the exact same $200 an acre he had offered for the Canal Site).   He probably realized that this number might work with Alvord for the overgrown site on Sebonac Neck with the implied costs of clearing, surveying, filling, etc...

He says nothing about consulting foreign experts.

If such an offer was already a done deal, and CBM had already had the land cleared and surveyed down to foot measurements, then again...why the heck would CBM still be talking about the Canal Site a few weeks later at the Lesley Cup, or throwing Montauk into the mix as an obvious tactical ploy?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 11:02:59 AM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1420 on: April 15, 2011, 11:01:05 AM »
Mike,

Could have been. Do you think it's possible he would have agreed to buy the Sebonac Neck site so soon after not having made an offer anywhere at all? Seems like quick action for someone who up to that point had moved slowly and dilligently and stated immediately that they were going to continue to move slowly and dilligently...course not opening for a couple years etc...


Jim,

As I mentioned, I think the Sebonac Neck site was in play by September as Whigham wrote, but as the second choice.   I think they rode that site a few times, and saw great possibilities "in the rough" so to speak, but probably had their eyes first on the Canal site.

Once the Canal site offer was refused and that negotiation broke down, then they tried to move quickly on the Sebonac Neck site, provided they could get the same price per acre they originally offered.

We also know from the November 1st Brooklyn Daily Eagle report, again from CBM at the Lesley Cup matches at Garden City, that he had been looking at "various sections" between Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Hills, so I think the idea that he entered the negotiations with only one site in mind out of the 2700 acres of Alvord's holdings is really not realistic.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 11:11:45 AM by MCirba »

V. Kmetz

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1421 on: April 15, 2011, 11:18:08 AM »
Either 1300 posts ago or now, how does this thread advance our knowkledge of something vital?

What could it possibly matter to the product or to the reputation of CBM or NGLA if the purchase of 205 acres, includes, anticipates, contemplates or varies from the "theoretical 120" needed to build JUST golf course?

In effect, are we saying that if X happened at Y, NGLA is different? CBM is more of a genius or more of a fool?  

What fact that might come out of this (doubtful) is essential to our understanding (never mind application) of the history of GCA?

Would the certainty of one date of one land transaction over another, change anything about our understanding of the growth of the course or CBMs role in the devlopment?

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1422 on: April 15, 2011, 11:38:50 AM »
VK,

For me, the one GCA relevant fact that could potentially come out of this is an answer to the question of whether or not a Gof Course Architect building his dream course would spend several years looking for a parcel to buy that would be just right for his purposes and not plan/visualize any of the golf holes prior to purchasing the land.

That is essentially the position Mike has taken throughout this and, frankly, is the only reason I'm involved...because I just don't believe it's possible.

Jeff Brauer has documented his extensive experience as a professional as almost always being given a specific parcel of land to go find and develop holes on. I wonder if he would do that to himself if it were his own money...a project he were driving from the outset...

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1423 on: April 15, 2011, 11:49:17 AM »
Jim,

Please see this March 24th, 1906 article with a letter from CBM.   Sound familiar?

It's obviously where the October 15th article got its (mis)understanding of concerning the sketches and agreement on how to proceed between parties on both sides of the ocean.


Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1424 on: April 15, 2011, 12:27:19 PM »
VKmetz,

For me, the one relevant GCA historical fact I'm trying to demonstrate is simply this;

In the earliest days of GCA in this country, courses were routed in short order, usually by foreign pros who were paid for a few hours effort and that was the expectation, but it was also the sales pitch.

The great courses designed by amateur architects in this country were conversely labors of love where meticulous detail was spent over a number of years.   Routings of 18 tee and green locations were painstaking processes to yield the best the land had to offer and were a clear break from the past, and a major reason they achieved greatness.

It isn't that men like Macdonald, or Fownes, or Wilson, or Leeds, or Crump COULDN'T route a course in a day if they had to, but that they WOULDN'T, because they understood how fundamentally important that activity was to shaping the bones upon which the rest of the suit would be hung.

It was a fundamental shift in golf course design in this country, and the reason those courses are still held up today as pinnacles of achievement.

My friend Jim may argue that they would also approach land purchases in the same manner, but I think that process was slightly different and not always based on golf-only considerations.    I think that process considered accessibility, accommodations, utilities, potential for real estate or other non-golf items, overall soil types, general land characteristics, and any general features that could be utilized for interesting golf on a more macro scale.

I think it was after securing enough land, sometimes with undetermined boundaries within a larger land mass as in the case of NGLA and Merion, that the fun started, the routings were determined, the stakes were plotted, and the ultimate purchase of the finalized acreage subsequently took place.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 12:33:09 PM by MCirba »

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