[DMoriarty]

Bryan, 

No intention of misleading you.  Given that various sources from 1907 mention that there was a new road to the Shinnecock Inn, I think the road had been finished by then.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Sorry, I'm losing track of which line you are arguing here.  Is it that the October article is describing a third mystery site?  Or, a forerunner of the 205 acre site that Macdonald eventually bought? Or, that it was describing the rejected 120 acre site?

I was simply trying to provide some possibilities on where a 120 acre site near the canal could have been.


David,

No worries about the atlas. 

I'm curious how you see the time line on the building of the North Highway?  Can we agree that some sections of it were there in some form in 1903?  And, that there were two significant sections (from the canal to a point just west of the Pond inlet; and, from the midpoint of the Pond eastward to meet up with St Andrews road) that got built somewhere between 1903 and 1913.  When do you think those sections of the road were built and the other sections improved?  By sometime in 1907?  Do you think the 1907 Olmstead map in the advertisement was a to-be plan or a fait accompli with regards to the North Highway?  Who do you think built the missing sections; they appear to have been private roads up until 1913?  Do you think the underpass of the LIRR got built in less than a year of the Senate approval?

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,

I do think the north highway was in place by 1907.  The developer reportedly got busy building roads and infrastructure pretty quickly after purchasing the property.   The Shinnecock Inn was open for the Summer of 1907 and I sounds like by this time the north highway was in place.    I think SHPBRC would have improved the roads and/or built the missing sections before they started heavily marketing the project (spring of 1907.)   I don't know what existed on those two sections missing on the 1903 map.  There was some sort of a north road earlier, but maybe it had been abandoned or the owners cut off the right of way.  I have no idea.   As for the Olmstead plan I think that it is probably some of both; main roads built (by the developer), others perhaps staked out.   As for the underpass, it sounds like it was there in the 1907 Bluebook, but beyond that I don't know.   I think the RR station moved twice, and I am not sure where it was in 1907. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

If you look carefully, you can see the overpass for the Sunrise Highway in the distance behind (north of) the Railroad Trestle.

 Now you're really beginning to worry me.  The Sunrise Bridge is 1000 feet north and around a curve from here.  Next you'll be telling me you can see the Atlantic from here!  

Now, you're worrying me.
I think you've posted the wrong photo.
There is NO overpass North of the Railroad Trestle until you get to the Sunrise Highway.
The archway (overpass) must be from some other location, it's NOT the North Highway just East of the Canal and South of the Sunrise Highway.



The road depicted is in almost the exact location at the North Highway in the Olmsted Map, which as we all know, ran right smack down the middle of Mike's phantom golf course.  

Just a reminder that the Olmstead Map was a "plan" not an as built map.
I believe it's a map with a plan incorporated.
You can't deny the existance and location of the Railroad, Cold Spring Pond and other features.
I believe that the North Highway was one of those features.

The advertisements for the Shinnecock Inn, in 1906-07 clearly reference the North Highway as the location and method of getting to the Shinnecock Inn, so it had to be there prior to 1913.
 
This section of road is today, exactly where it was when it was dedicated to the Town in 1913.  
This road and location is not on the 1903 map.

I'm not so sure.
The 1903 map seems cut off at the western end.

When was the bridge built?

Do you mean the trestle in the photo or the archway bridge behind it ?
Again, I don't think your picture is a photo of the North Highway, just East of the Canal and South of the Sunrise Highway since there's no archway overpass between the trestle and the Sunrise Highway.  Could you re-investigate the origin of that photo ?  

You really need to find that dedication stone.  


If my eyes were better, I'd drive out there this weekend.
I'll do my best to get there one way or the other.


I'll host you at my club if you can get us a picture of the dedication stone proving the build date and it's before the end of 1907.    Who cares where the phantom course is.  We have no proof one way or the other.  No need to demean Mike in the process.

Does that include food and beverage ?

The next time you're in that area, where the Old North Highway intersects with the Sunrise Highway, just a little west of the little inlet, between the "K" and "H" in the 1903 map, stop in at the "Lobster Inn" a nice restaurant right on that little inlet.  They have some nice waiters and waitresses who've been there since 1902 and they can tell you all about the fact that they located the Lobster Inn on the Sunrise/North Highway for prudent business reasons, just like the Shinnecock Inn did.

Man, that'd be something to see, wait staff who were around since 1902!  Are they vertical, or horizontal? Above or below ground?  Do I need a medium to talk to them?

Maybe that explains why the service is so slow.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Why do you keep refering to missing sections of the North Highway, as if it was a partially built thoroughfare, with missing links ?

Why would anyone construct such a road ?

The 1903 Map seems pretty clear in that the North Highway is continuous.
That's also reflected in the Olmsted Map.

Why would the Shinnecock Inn advertise that you merely had to take the North Highway from the Canal if it wasn't a completed road ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

You stated:

Your reading skills are deteriorating.  Read it again.  It says they accept the North Road.  It says they accept the Hills Station Road, the Peconic Road, the Tuckahoe road and the St Andrews Road all of which run north south generally and connect the South Road to the North Road.  They refer collectively to all these roads, including the North Road, as "new roads".

I think, if you'll read it again, you'll see a coma after "North Road" and then a listing of other roads.
I believe that when they're referencing "the new roads above mentioned", that they're only referencing those roads subsequently listed and not the "North Road"

As to the North Road Photo in Hampton Bays, it does say, "Location Approximate"
What date is that photo.

As to views of the Atlantic from that location, the trestle is "at grade" with the road well below grade.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The papers reported 250 acres, I think it was transposed from 205 acres, but I would suggest it looked more like this;

Mike,
Once again, you've changed the location and configuration of your phantom golf course.

Please tell us, how did they get back and forth across the inlet ?
Ferry ?
Bridge ?
Tunnel ?
Tramway ?[/size]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Based on the topography and the statement that you could see the Atlantic from everywhere on the property except the low lying areas, I'd have to go with your blue parcel



You can NOT see the Atlantic from ANYWHERE on Mike's parcel.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I'll break up the answers to keep from getting too complicated.  Dealing with the photo below, I've compressed its width so it should fit on your screen now.  I assume you didn't scroll to the right on the original photo.  The inset, bottom right indicates where the photo was taken - on the North Road, just south of the LIRR trestle.  You can see Canal Road E on the left side of the inset to help you place where the photo is from.

I am mystified as to the archway overpass you are seeing behind the trestle.  There is no archway between the LIRR and Sunrise, as you've said.  I don't see anything in the photo other than the shadows of some trees that may look an archway to you, but is really just trees.  The photo is from the right place and this is the bridge in question looking from south to north.

Bryan,

If you look carefully, you can see the overpass for the Sunrise Highway in the distance behind (north of) the Railroad Trestle.

 Now you're really beginning to worry me.  The Sunrise Bridge is 1000 feet north and around a curve from here.  Next you'll be telling me you can see the Atlantic from here!  

Now, you're worrying me.
I think you've posted the wrong photo.
There is NO overpass North of the Railroad Trestle until you get to the Sunrise Highway.
The archway (overpass) must be from some other location, it's NOT the North Highway just East of the Canal and South of the Sunrise Highway.




..................................
 


When was the bridge built?

Do you mean the trestle in the photo or the archway bridge behind it ?
Again, I don't think your picture is a photo of the North Highway, just East of the Canal and South of the Sunrise Highway since there's no archway overpass between the trestle and the Sunrise Highway.  Could you re-investigate the origin of that photo ?  


.................................

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,


.........................


You really need to find that dedication stone.  


If my eyes were better, I'd drive out there this weekend.
I'll do my best to get there one way or the other.

In all sincerity, don't even think of going out there until your eyes are up to it.  This is only an internet debate.


I'll host you at my club if you can get us a picture of the dedication stone proving the build date and it's before the end of 1907.    Who cares where the phantom course is.  We have no proof one way or the other.  No need to demean Mike in the process.

Does that include food and beverage ?

Of course it does.  Transportation to my club is not included though.

.................................

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

Why do you keep refering to missing sections of the North Highway, as if it was a partially built thoroughfare, with missing links ?

The North Highway in 1913/16 did not follow the same path as the Muccian-green road of 1903.  See the picture below.  I am assuming that Peconic Bay built the "North Highway" that they dedicated to the town in 1913 by reusing some sections of the Muccian-green road, particularly above the word "COCK" on the map and to the eastwhere St Andrews Road went through SHGC. The existing roads in those two sections coincide with the later North Highway of 1913/16.  I am assuming that the missing sections, at the west end near the canal up around the word "SHINN" on the map and the area on the south shore of Cold Spring Pond, which didn'r exist in 1903, were built from scratch by Peconic bay Realty.  The latter two stretches are the two stretches I am saying were missing.  They were not there in 1903 and were added some time subsequently.

Why would anyone construct such a road ?

The 1903 Map seems pretty clear in that the North Highway is continuous.Sure the 1903 map is clear, but what you've called the North Highway isn't where the North Highway was in 1913 when it was dedicated as a public highway.  Just a reminder that the Shinnecock Inn was not on one of the missing sections. It was just off of the existing St Andrews Road section of the Muccian-green road.  So, you could get to it by following the green road.
That's also reflected in the Olmsted Map.

Why would the Shinnecock Inn advertise that you merely had to take the North Highway from the Canal if it wasn't a completed road ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

You stated:

Your reading skills are deteriorating.  Read it again.  It says they accept the North Road.  It says they accept the Hills Station Road, the Peconic Road, the Tuckahoe road and the St Andrews Road all of which run north south generally and connect the South Road to the North Road.  They refer collectively to all these roads, including the North Road, as "new roads".

I think, if you'll read it again, you'll see a coma after "North Road" and then a listing of other roads.
I believe that when they're referencing "the new roads above mentioned", that they're only referencing those roads subsequently listed and not the "North Road"

Wow, the parsing is down to commas now.  I'd just remind you that the Peconic, Tuckahoe, etc roads were on the 1903 map whereas sections of the North Highway that was being dedicated were not.  How does that make the aforementioned roads new and the latter named road not new.  If anything, at that time the North Highway as dedicated was newer and the Peconic, Tuckahoe, etc roads were older.

As to the North Road Photo in Hampton Bays, it does say, "Location Approximate"
What date is that photo.

As to views of the Atlantic from that location, the trestle is "at grade" with the road well below grade.

I was just joshing you about the Atlantic view from under the trestle.  But, now that you're seeing archways in the picture, maybe the Atlantic is just behind that.  Oooops, wrong direction.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Yeah, I thought the blue parcel looked like the best bet. Near the canal, nice views of the Atlantic, good looking topography.  It does have those annoying roads through it, but they seems to have pretty much disappeared over the years.  That section looks like the least developed part of the Shinnecock Hills in current times, based on the aerial views.

I think Mike is the only person who thinks that his parcel is germane to anything.  We should wait until he brings forth his further thoughts.  I see nothing in what's been presented so far to support any thesis that that land was part of any of CBM's plans.

Bryan,

Based on the topography and the statement that you could see the Atlantic from everywhere on the property except the low lying areas, I'd have to go with your blue parcel



You can NOT see the Atlantic from ANYWHERE on Mike's parcel.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

What year was this picture taken ?

Look beyond the trestle.

There appears to be an archway/underpass unless that's just the trees that have grown over the road..

There is no archway/underpass just north of the trestle until you get to the Sunrise Highway which is further North

If you'll note, there appears to be a number of "historical" sign markers alongside the road.
If I can get there in the next few weekends, I'll take photos of what they say and the date plaque of the trestle, if there is one.



 

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I don't know the year; Google doesn't seem to date them.  I'd guess it's a few years old.  The more recent ones have much better clarity.

The archway you're seeing is just tree shadows playing tricks on old eyes.  Here's another picture looking the same way, but from underneath the LIRR trestle.

The photos on Google are 360 degree, and using them I am unable to see anything that looks like a dedication stone.  But, if you are out that way and it's not too dangerous to inspect the bridge, maybe there is a date there.  Hopefully we won't have to argue whether the engravers of the stone (if it exists) transposed digits in the year, or just plain got it wrong, it would of course be carved in stone and therefore unassailable.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Please look at the 1907 Olmstead MAP which incorporates the development plan.



You will note that the South Highway, Railroad Line, Peconic Bay, Cold Spring Pond, Shinnecock Bay and North Highway are all depicted.

The MAP is accurate.

The plan merely identifies/labels the block of parcels to be developed, but the main features, are in fact depicted as they existed in 1907, including the North Highway.

Please look at where the North Highway passes UNDER the Railroad Trestle in the 1907 Map.
It's in the exact same location as it is today.
The North Highway appears in that 1907 map as the North Road appears today, as pictured in your photo.

We know, from contemporaneous advertisements by the Shinnecock Inn, in 1906-07, that the North Highway existed.

I suspect that the trestle will have a more modern date, perhaps in the 30's when many public works projects were completed.

While I"m interested in the dedication plate, I"m also interested in what may be historical markers along the road.

Also, please go to the other NGLA thread posted yesterday.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Nice that you still think that 1907 Olmstead Brothers Land Plan was an actual Map.   It makes discussing things rationally with you so possible.    

I just can't imagine how CBM and his members teed off though with the North Highway heading to Southampton running across his original first tee and right in front of his original 18th green.

Also interesting to see just how far "east" Shinnecock Hills was of NGLA at the time.

[JESII]

I still haven't been able to find the time these past few days to comprehensively address David's questions, but the amount of additional discussion on this and a number of new related threads at least gives me some confidence that this thread has been of value to most folks who have read it, and I'm glad for that.

One thing I'd like people to think about is the fact that the real estate transactions didn't take place out on the island, but in Brooklyn, where the PB&SHRC was located.

I'd also be curious to explore why only one NYC paper actually reported that October 15th story, which seems to have been placed on the wire and then reported in Boston and a few other sites verbatim.  

In fact, AFTER that article was written, both the NY Sun as well as the seemingly most "in the know", the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, printed much different accounts of where things stood on November 1st, based on what they reported CBM said to reporters at Garden City during the Lesley Cup matches, with the Sun stating that CBM was down to a site in western Shinnecock Hills near Good Ground and Montauk, and the Eagle reporting that he was looking at various sections around Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Hills.

Certainly, by contrast, the mid-December reporting was much more extensive with numerous papers reporting that CBM had signed a contract securing 205 undetermined acres of 450 available.

Hope to get into more detail, and more admitted speculation this weekend.

Mike,

Curious if you're interested in getting to the point of this post you made last week...other than the riveting road argument Pat keeps driving it seems as good a place as any to try to move forward.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Nice that you still think that 1907 Olmstead Brothers Land Plan was an actual Map.   It makes discussing things rationally with you so possible.    

Of course it's a map.  It's a map with a development plan drawn on it.
Can't you see Peconic Bay, The Shinnecock Canal, the Railroad, The North and South Highway ?
They're all there.

I just can't imagine how CBM and his members teed off though with the North Highway heading to Southampton running across his original first tee and right in front of his original 18th green.

Remember Mike, according to you, that road was nothing more than a dirt cart path.

And, they played over it, the exact same way they tee off over roads today, on # 8 and # 13.

CBM and his fellow members were also used to this at GCGC where they teed off over roads on # 3, # 9 and # 12 and played to greens fronted by roads at GCGC, on # 4, # 8 and # 16

Bryan,

When you did the measurement for the relocation of the crossing of the North Highway and the Railroad tracks, per the  1906 New York State Senate minutes, did it bring you close to the overpass/trestle pictured below ?

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You're kidding, yes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Not at all.

CB Macdonald was a member of GCGC as were many others.

Playing across a road was quite common, in fact, it's still done today at NGLA.

But, purchasing land with THE major thoroughfare on the entire North Shore of the South Fork running right down the middle of that narrow, limited parcel wouldn't be something that CBM or any reasonably intelligent fellow would do.

How do you reconcile that you CAN'T SEE ANY of the Atlantic from your phantom site North of the Railroad tracks, when you vigorously defended the accuracy of the article you posted that claimed you could see the Atlantic from EVERYWHERE except the low lying areas.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You're seriously trying to tell us that the major road running to Southampton north of the rail tracks ran over the first tee at NGLA and in front of CBM's 18th green, and what's more, CBM routed his course knowing full well this was planned?

April Fool's Day was a few day's back, yes?

And you call me disengenuous??

Further, what does seeing the Atlantic Ocean or not have to do with anything?  

Where does it say that the first site CBM selected had an ocean view?  

Why are you not troubled that the site south of the rail tracks (in blue) that you and Brian both feel may have been the "Canal Site" has the much earlier developed South Highway running right through it?

Further, CBM himself said that the soil and dunes on the north side were much superior to those on the Atlantic side of Shinnecock Hills.  

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Based on your knowledge of the North road in 1906, is there anything that would discount this possibly being the approximate site mentioned in the article?

Shinnecock Hills GC adjoining on the East

Skirting the Long Island Rail Road to the South

Western Boundary near the inlet between Shinnecock Station and Good Ground

Stretching along Peconic Bay to the North

Using Shinnecocck Inn as the clubhouse

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Where did the Mystery highway across the first tee (today's 10th) disappear??    

Funnier still, as seen below that original 18th green got moved back in the first couple of years.

As the green was built originally the MYSTERY HIGHWAY would have RUN right through your 18th green and 1st tee!!    

[Jeff_Brauer]

For what its worth, I am wondering if the first site, if we think its the blue one, wasn't a bit narrower, longer, and further east.

It appears from the solid lines that the southern highway was improved west to east and in play at that time.  Also the descriptions of seeing the Atlantic from the high points and all but the low points seems to fit if you move the blue portion east - many more highs and lows, plus less road interferenced and no road drawn in solid lines right along the water, as is the case right by the canal.  It also appears to have one estate type house looking over the ocean, which might have also served as clubhouse with a view, although, that is speculation as I don't know what was there.

But then, we would have to accept "near the canal" as being a pretty broad description.

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