[JESII]

Mike,

Is this the Canal site possibly?

Why would the canal site also be anchored by the Shinnecock Inn and not actually too close to the canal?




Jeff,

When CBM says he made the first offer just a few weeks after the realty company bought the land why would the platt plans have been too far evolved for them to give him a certain area?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

If he did make the offer in late 1905 or very early 1906, my guess is that they had engaged Olmstead and had at least figured where the bulk of the development was going.  Just because the plan was made public in 1907 for advertising, doesn't mean it wasn't under development from the get go right after purchase (and possibley before purchase as part of what would now be called "due dilligence."

If we believe Whigham on riding the Sebonac site in Sept 1906, I get the feeling that the first offer came sometime after CBM's June return from GBI, myself.  There are a few other examples of CBM not exactly having his dates right either.

In either case, its an easy scenario to see that the land company offered him land that was projected to be (despite incomplete plans) of less use to their basic scheme.  And, as David suggested once, maybe CBM went in and wanted to generally purchase 120 acres and was told he should look at the neck, without there ever having been a specific site, but rather a general area near the canal.

[JESII]

Jeff,

I can see the realty company turning him down for property they saw as worth more than he was offering, but I can't see that their plans were too far evolved to have accepted his offer. Nothing supports it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

One more belated post on the roads.  And, not wanting Pat to have the last post.   

In the Southampton Records there was a File 40 from August 1913 that talked to dedication of a number of roads and trading of other roads to Peconic Bay Realty.  I've reproduced it below.  The first highlighted part describes in text a road through the Shinnecock Hills which it later refers to as the North Road. 

That reference indicates that they ACCEPT an EXISTING road, the NORTH ROAD

Further down, where I've also highlighted, it refers to the North Road as a new road which the Town is accepting while giving older unused roads back to Peconic Bay Realty. 

That's NOT what it says, it says:
It mentions roads that run North-South, connecting the South Country road to the North road, and it mentions "new roadS above mentioned", not the "singular" North Road.

But, it would be helpful if you could obtain the Seth Raynor map cited.

Did you do this research or did someone else provide it for you ?

Based on this, I'd draw the conclusion that the North Highway as we know it in 1916, or today, was built closer to 1913 than to 1906.  Clearly, there were parts of the road there, probably in unimproved states. in 1903 and up until the new road, in its entirety, was built.  There was a section there in 1903, St Andrews Road, on which the Shinnecock Inn was built, but it must have been an unimproved road at the time.

That's your opinion, one that I don't agree with

Based on this file, it is clear that the new roads mentioned were built as private roads and then dedicated and released as public roads in 1913.  The trade-of was that Peconic Bay received a number of rights-of-way (public?) that were for roads that would be displaced by the new roads.

Those roads appear to be North-South roads, not East-West roads



Here below is the 1903 USGS map of the Shinnecock Hills.  I think it is the most accurate from that era.

I agree that it's accurate, and if you look carefully, between the "K" in Shinnecock and the "H" you'll see that the road is about 20-30 yards south of the water in the little inlet,.  At that point, the North Highway runs right through Mike's phantom course.



David has done a good job of overlaying the various maps from the era.  I just wanted to add this one below, which shows, in Mucci-green, the 1903 "North Highway" as Patrick has described it.  I've also added, in red, the North Road/Highway provided by the metes and bounds of the Southampton Records that Andy found.  And, I've added, in yellow, the 1916 Atlas map version of the North Highway.  Both are consistent with the current routing of the road, with one exception.  The eastern end that used to run through the Shinnecock Hills golf club, currently drops southerly and runs much closer to the LIRR tracks.  No doubt a result of one of the later rebuilds of SH.

It should be noted that all the road rights-of-way were designated as 50 feet wide, much wider than the actual roads were built then, or now.

It also appears that the South Highway was not a complete contiguous road either in 1903, but was by 1913.



On the next picture, I've plotted the metes and bounds for parts of St Andrews Road and Tuckahoe Road that were dedicated as public roads in 1913.  The orange parts are stretches that abut some part of the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.  The measurements are quite precise.  They appear to match the related stretches on the 1916 Atlas map.  Unfortunately there is no mention of roads that abut other boundaries of the club.

Finally, for Patrick, a picture of the still bustling    North Highway in the 21srt century.  Next time you're out that way, maybe you could stop and see if there is a dedication stone on that bridge from the year it was built?  Or, not.

Bryan,

I can understand you ignorance with respect to the Olde and the Old North Highway since you're not familiar iwth that area.

I've taken the road depicted below hundreds of times.  I refrenced it in many of my replies
That road runs under the current Sunrise Highway just East of the Canal.
When I stay at the Hampton Maid, in Hampton Bays, I take that road, which goes under and north of the Sunrise highway to the point just west of that little inlet between the "K" and the "H" in order to avoid the backed up traffic on the Sunrise Highway, even at 6:00 am.  The Sunrise Highway replaced the North Highway as the Major Thoroughfare running East-West on the North Shore of the South Fork.  In many locations, the Sunrise Highway traverses the olde North Highway.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I know those plans for large parcels take a while to develop.  They start with analysis of the land, surveys, etc. then land allocation studies, then prelim plans, etc.  If they had gotten to the concept stage before CBM asked to buy land, it would be easy to say no.

But, as you say, they may also have just seen the land along what "would be" the north highway as the easiest to develop for whatever reason, and most valuble and just decided to stick with the plan.

We are probably envisioning things a bit differently, but in the end, we only know they turned CBM down, and somehow it had something to do with their grand plans.  The specifics, I doubt we will ever know.  We don't even need to, but its fascinating to try to fill in the details.  

If we ever do know, I bet we are both wrong!  But, I am pretty damn sure Patrick is wrong about the roads.  The maps show there were many roads in different locations prior to 1907.  They moved, sort of proving they could be moved, no?  It was not until they were dedicated public roads that they couldn't be moved......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I'll answer the question you posed to Bryan, who has no first hand knowledge of the lay of the land in that area.

There was NO room to squeeze a golf course south of Cold Spring Pond.  The Inlet that dips down, between the "K" in Shinnecock and the "H" in Hills in the 1903 map, approximately 20-30 yards from the North Highway.  In fact, the 1903 map shows it closer than that.

Jeff,

Since when can't public roads be moved.
That's one of the most ridiculous things you've ever said, and you've said plenty of ridiculous things.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Well, the govt can move them, but usually not for private interests.  It is hard to sell public land by charter in most cases.  I know they have straightened them over the years for greater traffic.

The day when you tell me I say silly things is the day .....well, I will try to be civil.

[JESII]

I've just assumed the slight variations in the roads was different map drawers, are you guys saying it's more likely the roads moved than to have mads slightly inconsistent?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

If you look carefully, you can see the overpass for the Sunrise Highway in the distance behind (north of) the Railroad Trestle.


The road depicted is in almost the exact location at the North Highway in the Olmsted Map, which as we all know, ran right smack down the middle of Mike's phantom golf course.

The next time you're in that area, where the Old North Highway intersects with the Sunrise Highway, just a little west of the little inlet, between the "K" and "H" in the 1903 map, stop in at the "Lobster Inn" a nice restaurant right on that little inlet.  They have some nice waiters and waitresses who've been there since 1902 and they can tell you all about the fact that they located the Lobster Inn on the Sunrise/North Highway for prudent business reasons, just like the Shinnecock Inn did.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Yes, I think it may be the Lcanal site".

I'll try to explain soon, but it's been a really busy couple of weeks and I don't want to go off half-cocked given the history here to date.

I may be wrong, but at least Bryan has shed some light on reality here, and that's very helpful.

[JESII]

Mike,

I'll tell you what surprised me...2 miles out and back and 100 yards wide is only 78 acres.

I would have guessed closer to 500...seriously!

For what it's worth, I think it'll be a stretch to have that be his proposed first site, but I'm curious to hear your idea.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I think the maps are pretty accurate.

Bryan stated that he thought the 1903 map was accurate, and I believe it is.
That map has the North Highway running right down the middle of Mike's phantom golf course.

Jeff,

In 1954 the Interstate and National Defense Highway System was initiated.
Major interstate Highways replaced connecting State Highways.
In some cases, they incorporated existing highways into the system.

As to roads and intersections moving, in NJ, RT 1, Rt 171 and Rt 130 were moved recently.

And, as I type, so are the roads leading to and from the East side of the George Washington Bridge.

ARW allows various authorities to move roads when necessary.

Moving them in 1903, 1906 or 1916 was duck soup.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Semantically, I wouldn't say Duck Soup, but lets not quibble, as I agreed that the govt moves highways for their own reasons.

That said, if you think moving roads in 1906 was duck soup, then why is it so hard for you to believe that CBM went to the Realty Co. and suggested the site near the canal, with the same idea.  Why wouldn't they move a few simple roads for his great golf course?

That is ALL that had to have happened or been believed for CBM to make an offer where Mike postulated that he made his offer, no?  While Mike's theory is still speculation, you have prompted 25 pages of posts based on your contention that he wouldn't have offered to buy land in an area because the roads were there, and yet you say it was duck soup to move them. 

Also, while I have no doubt that SHGC and NGLA fought the eventual roads that went through their property (can't fight city hall, I guess, no matter how powerful you are) the fact that Merion, Mid Ocean, and other later projects have roads through them suggest that perhaps, CBM wasn't all that concerned about a road or two cutting through his golf course site, eh?

Thus, given the CBM description of the land, I have just never thought Mike's theory deserves the load of crap you give it.  If the offer was not there, then where?  It is certainly a question worth asking.

Have a good one.

[JESII]

Jeff,

That site would never be considered..."near the canal", that's why his theory is off base so far. If he comes up with additional info maybe things change, but from what's been produced so far, it's 120 "near the canal". Why is Mike anchoring this site to the Shinnecock Inn? Nobody reported that at the time...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Semantically, I wouldn't say Duck Soup, but lets not quibble, as I agreed that the govt moves highways for their own reasons.

That said, if you think moving roads in 1906 was duck soup, then why is it so hard for you to believe that CBM went to the Realty Co. and suggested the site near the canal, with the same idea. 

Because it wasn't just one road that would have to be moved, it was the main road running East-West, a road central to the entire development.
It they moved the North Road, they'd have to reconfigure all of the other roads.  And, where would you move the North Highway, the Major East-West thoroughfare on the North Shore of the South Fork ?
Please review the Olmsted Bros Map.
You're talking about reconfiguring a complex development, not just one road.
And, for what purpose, so that a golf course could be built where the development company wanted to site homes.
Think about that.  Selling that land to CBM would be disastrous to their development plans.

And I thought common sense was common ?

Why wouldn't they move a few simple roads for his great golf course?

Because it would have been financially disastrous.

That is ALL that had to have happened or been believed for CBM to make an offer where Mike postulated that he made his offer, no? 

NO.
The entire development plan would go down the tubes if they sold the land Mike identified, and, they would have sold it cheap, at $ 200 per acre.
Ruining any possibility of development on a critical stretch of land, land on the water, the most valueable land.
And, where would they have relocated the North Highway ?

Like Mike, you're proposing speculative hypotheticals and asking why they wouldn't have done it.
I can tell you one reason they didn't do it.
And, that's because, they didn't do it.  IF it was so easy and if that was the site, they would have done it, but, neither is the case.
It wasn't going to happen.  Your belief in Mike's phantom course is rooted in one principle, and that is, that I say it couldn't happen, and you want to prove me wrong.

While Mike's theory is still speculation, you have prompted 25 pages of posts based on your contention that he wouldn't have offered to buy land in an area because the roads were there, and yet you say it was duck soup to move them. 
 
Oh, I see, like you haven't been complicit in promoting 25 pages.

Now Jeff, you're starting to be disingenuous.
I stated that it was duck soup to move public roads in 1903, 1906 and 1916.
It's one thing to move a road, it's quite another to completely undo a development plan with multiple roads and redraft an entirely new plan moving many roads.
Please, do yourself a favor and review the Olmsted Plan.  It's NOT one road that would have to be moved, but, EVERYROAD.
AND, where would you move the North Highway to ?  South of the Railroad tracks ?
Please, get a grip on reality and give up the fantasy of trying to prove me wrong on this issue.

Look at the Maps, look at the location of Mike's phantom course, look at Cold Spring Pond, look at the Railroad tracks, look at all the other roads and tell me you really believe the nonsense you're spewing.

Also, while I have no doubt that SHGC and NGLA fought the eventual roads that went through their property (can't fight city hall, I guess, no matter how powerful you are) the fact that Merion, Mid Ocean, and other later projects have roads through them suggest that perhaps, CBM wasn't all that concerned about a road or two cutting through his golf course site, eh?

Not when it's THE major thoroughfare for the North Shore of the South Fork and it runs down the entire middle of your golf course.
It's one thing to have a road cut across a hole, quite another to have it run down the middle of your entire golf course.
And again, it was THE Major East-West Thoroughfare on the North Shore of the South Fork.

It's an absurd premise, but, I'm sure you'll blindly soldier on in an attempt to prove me wrong, and in doing so, you look silly.

Thus, given the CBM description of the land, I have just never thought Mike's theory deserves the load of crap you give it. 

Are you intimately familiar with that land ?
The location of Cold Spring Pond, the Railroad, the North Highway and the topography ?
If you were, you'd see the absurdity of Mike's and your position.

If the offer was not there, then where?  It is certainly a question worth asking.

For once we agree.

Thwarting our attemps at locating the exact site are conflicting reports, one of which stated that you could see the Atlantic from everywhere on the property except the low lying areas..  CBM stated that he wanted to get far away from Shinnecock.  He mentions 120 acres near the canal.
Our dilema is the definition of "near".  Is it a hundred feet, a hundred yards, 1,000 feet, 1,000 yards ?  Is it East or West of the canal ?
Is he refering to the Shinnecock Canal or the canal at Cold Spring Pond ?  I don't know.

What intriques me more, is how was he going to site his 18 ideal/classic holes on 120 acres ?
What was the configuration of that 120 acres and what was the topography.

David makes the case that it was the western portion of Sebonack Neck.  Could be, but, I don't know where or how the 120 acre site was configured.

I don't think we can draw any finite conclusions without more data.


Have a good one.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I agree if you are talking about the portion of the site by the Inn. Mike's original yellow rectangle extended from the canal all the way across, and was much larger than 120 acres originally proposed.

Pat,

Sorry to say that your logic on this one is easily assailable.  Although we will never know, I do know that I have several emails etc. telling me I DO NOT look silly in this. I presume you have a few of your own.

None of the roads, even the north road in whatever configuration it was in by 1907 was hard to move.  They would have built the new road, put up barriers until ready, and then transferred traffic when ready, just as they do today.  In fact, the realty company was PLANNING on moving the road anyway, according to their master plan, so they obviously didn't think it would be a financial disaster, although history does show that they sure didn't believe that moving it for CBM's golf course served their purposes.  

That wouldn't have necessarily stopped CBM from offering on it anyway, out of ignorance or ego that they would accomodate him.  And, CBM tells us just that. Just because they DID reject him, obviously because their base level or detailed thinking when CBM offered to buy 120 acres in the middle of their plans, and because he told us he was rejected (pretty strong words, actually) means that he MUST HAVE offered somewhere near the canal, and perhaps been a bit surprised at the reaction, right?

To my mind, its very possible/probable that they told CBM "We love ya, but you do know that your offer would make us move about ten miles of road we have planned in great detail, no?" (or some similar reason - wanted lake front, utilities closer, access to train station, etc.)

We agree that the developers simply weren't going to change their plans (and most likely roads) for him, but did want NGLA there, so they offered to let him take a look at the final property.  

It just seems to me that your logic that ignores what did happen (rejection) in favor of what we now know did happen.  It also seems simple to me that CBM simply got there to offer on the land a bit past the shelf life of his idea, because of the work the developer put in during a short time frame.

Nothing more, nothing less.  While I understand the reasons the developers DID reject him in that area, I don't think he never offered there - he tells us so, but doesn't tell us the reasons why.  Maybe he is up in heaven saying "If that fool Mucci could see it wouldn't fly, why couldn't I? D'oh!"

BTW, I also agree that we won't ever know where it was offered and can't draw any finite conclusions.  It is simply our web version of those Disney kid adventures when they go out looking for buried treasure, no?  And, I have briefly looked at the topo in the Cold Springs and Canal areas and also wonder just where those holes might have gone.  Even on what looks from the topo to be better land, it had to be a challenge to fit those holes in, and he eventually abandoned the pure copy idea in favor of a mesh of concepts and fitting the land.  Actually, for pure templates, the land along Cold Spring appears to me to be a bit flatter, and might have been easier.

But, those kind of speculations are fun for history and architecture buffs and keep us coming back, no?

Sleep well.

For that matter, we don't know how the course would have been routed, and it could very easily (I presume) been routed to parallel important roads rather than have them cross fw, as later happened at NGLA and SH.

We agree that set in stone by the time Charlie made the offer.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,  You mentioned that the North road was described as a "new road" in the 1913 records, but I don't see that.   Can you point it out, or are you assuming it was new due to the fact it was being handed over to the municipality then?

The reason I ask is because, whether "new" or not, it sure sounds like the same road drawn and described in the 1907 automobile atlas.   The description of the route to Southampton from that Atlas:
After crossing bridge [over the Canal] take first left—the 'Shore Road,' running close along Peconic Bay through Shinnecock Hills (96 miles); Shinnecock Inn. Cross RR., meeting old road near "Art Village," just beyond; here bear left, straight ahead on fine surface, part of the way oiled. Continue direct, turning left into SOUTHAMPTON. 100 miles from New York.  

Note that the description is similar to that in the 1913 record.  Note also that the road described in 1907 goes to the Shinnecock Inn.   From an advertisement in same Atlas: "Take the new North Highway at the Shinnecock Canal to the new Shinnecock Inn."  The 1903 route you highlighted does not appear to have gone to the Shinnecock Inn.  

Also,  are you missing a map?   I don't see where you have marked the described road as described in the town records in orange.
____________________________________________________________

Mike Cirba,  

I am a bit perplexed you are back again rehashing the same old discredited theories, yet you still haven't bothered to answer my questions or to address the points I raised about your latest theory.  I am also disappointed that you continue to misrepresent my position on matters I have clarified repeatedly.  

Will you please just answer my questions and address my critique?  How many months could it take?  

_________________________________

Jeff Brauer,

I am not sure what you are looking at, but I don't see all these roads you think were moved.   Which roads were moved?  

I think I provided the locations of most of the roads at a number of dates and except forthe roads running through SHGC they all seem to be in about the same place throughout.   Roads were added, some were eventually subtracted, but I don't see where they have been moved.  

Care to elaborate?  

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,  You mentioned that the North road was described as a "new road" in the 1913 records, but I don't see that.   Can you point it out, or are you assuming it was new due to the fact it was being handed over to the municipality then?

The reason I ask is because, whether "new" or not, it sure sounds like the same road drawn and described in the 1907 automobile atlas.   The description of the route to Southampton from that Atlas:
After crossing bridge [over the Canal] take first left—the 'Shore Road,' running close along Peconic Bay through Shinnecock Hills (96 miles); Shinnecock Inn. Cross RR., meeting old road near "Art Village," just beyond; here bear left, straight ahead on fine surface, part of the way oiled. Continue direct, turning left into SOUTHAMPTON. 100 miles from New York.  

Note that the description is similar to that in the 1913 record.  Note also that the road described in 1907 goes to the Shinnecock Inn.   From an advertisement in same Atlas: "Take the new North Highway at the Shinnecock Canal to the new Shinnecock Inn."  The 1903 route you highlighted does not appear to have gone to the Shinnecock Inn.  

Also,  are you missing a map?   I don't see where you have marked the described road as described in the town records in orange.
____________________________________________________________

...................................

David,

You're right, I did neglect to include one map.  I've edited the original post to include it.  Here it is below, as well.  Now the preview is not working, so I seem to be more prone to posting errors.  At least the flipping screen and the inactive tool bar are fixed.

The reference to the "new roads" is in the third highlighted section of File 40 above.  They accepted new roads and gave up old roads that were no longer relevant because of the new roads.

I think your automobile atlas was a bit off.  Do you really think it is 96 (or even 9.6) miles from the canal through the Shinnecock Hills? The only thing 100 miles out that way on LI from New York would be Montauk, and only if you took a slightly non-linear approach.

The Shinnecock Inn would be just off the Muccian-green road on the semicircular road just west of the SH clubhouse on Tuckahoe
Road, so I'd guess the atlas was accurate enough in saying that the road went by there.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Sure, one more time before I nod off and get up early to head your way.....

I looked at your overlay with blue (1903) red (1904) etc roads.  Those roads, pre Olmstead development plan seem to have moved a lot.

However, its clear there were far fewer roads on the western portion, near the canal than to the east.  Those roads further east were said to be access to the dozen or so private homes (mostly owned by employees of the Brits previously owning the land, at least north of the north road) so there would have been the problem of acquiring several small private parcels (unless they leased the land to build their houses) in addition to moving roads.


It would seem to confirm that the first offer was the canal site, to me:

*CBM said it was there

*Despite my earlier proclamations of CBM's possible ignorance of the of the Realty Co. planned roads, or their committment to that plan when he offered in 1905-6 at about the same time the plan was being drawn up, I prefer to think that CBM was smart enough to suggest a site that had the least infrastructure requirements (road moves) and the wester portion would be more logical.

*Fewer Roads

*Existing roads (including the North Road and the Lobster Shack!) further south, near the tracks.

*Seemingly plenty of room for 120 acres of golf to be deeded without moving existing roads or at least miniimizing their crossings.....


IN SHORT - SIMPLEST EXPLANATION IS USUALLY BEST

I agree with you, Patrick and Jim that there wasn't a third site, and that the first offer was likely near the canal, as has been reported.  I believe CBM got blocked because the realty company didn't want to erase drawn roads as much as they didn't want to rebuild real roads.....and I think most agree, despite arguing the minutiae of road alignments.  They COULD have moved them, but didn't want to for a host of reasons.

It also makes sense to me that most of the new roads were built to the Omstead plan, and as part of a private developement, later turned over to the State/County/Cities, etc. as would be common.  It says that they built the new road to the SI and sometimes new is just new, although it may be semantics of realigning one road rather than calling it a new one.  The new alignment was almost certainly a much nicer road than anything that existed before.

Like Bryan, my preview and edit capabilities are most stressful right now.  Sorry for any tyops.

Cheers.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

That's absolutely tremendous work...thanks!

Two questions;

1) In your estimation, based on the position of the North "road" in 1906, would there have been enough width to route an "out and back" golf course heading west from about 200 yards from the west side of Shinnecock Inn, located south of Cold Spring Bay and north of the railroad tracks, and ending with it's westernmost point near the inlet (possibly even stretching further so that Peconic Bay was to the north) between the Shinnecock Station and Good Ground without having to contend with road congestion?   If I understand your map correctly the location I described would run north of the Muccian Green road.

2) From reading the metes and bounds from the 1913 dedication, it sounded as though the North road ran along the north border of the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club at that time.    Is that correct, and if so, could you show us precisely where that was and it's positioning in relation to NGLA?

Thanks again...great stuff.

Mike,

Here are three possible 120 acre, or more, sites.  One where you want it and two that are actually near the canal.  The red one had no roads through it then.  The blue had roads through it then, but doesn't now.  Your green one didn't have roads in 1903, but certainly did by 1913 at the latest.  For reasons given on other posts, I don't think that the green location is a starter unless you have some further information.

In looking at the North and South highways as built by 1916, I was reminded of your Two Curvilinear Roads theory from that Phillie course.   



You have to understand that the metes and bounds refer to one side of a 50 foot wide road.  They describe what abuts that side of the road.  At the end they say that the other boundary is 50 feet away and follows the same path.  It doesn't describe what property is on the other side of the road.  So, for instance, just because it says that the southern side of St Andrews road was the north boundary of SH, doesn't exclude that the north side of St Andrews Road was also the south boundary of another part of SH.  In 1913, from other maps, we know that St Andrews Road and Tuckahoe Road ran through the golf course.   

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,

I do not doubt the accuracy of that 1907 Automobile Bluebook, but if you'd like to check it out yourself via google books.  "1907 Automobile Bluebook"

I don't understand your comments about the mileage.  The book provided directions for recommended routes.  Southampton was on "Route No. 1" in the Long Island Section; New York and Brooklyn to Sag Harbor, N.Y. - 115 Miles:  "Main thorofare from Long Island City and Jamaica, via the "South Shore," to Southampton and Bridgehampton, connecting for Sag Harbor, Shelter Island and Greenport. Extension Route to Amagansett."   The mileage gives distance from the beginning of the route to that point which appears to have been midtown Manhattan. So via their recommended route it was 96 miles to the canal and 100 miles to Southampton (so it was 4 miles across.)    

According to Google Maps it is 95 miles from Grand Central Station to Southamption via the Southern State Parkway and  NY-27, so the 1907 measure of 100 miles via less direct roads seems about right to me.

Looking at the land plan and a number of the maps, I do not think that the Shinnecock Inn was directly along the route shown on the 1903 map.   Close, but not quite.   It looks to have been along Golf road on the land plan.  

[Bryan Izatt]

One more belated post on the roads.  And, not wanting Pat to have the last post.  

In the Southampton Records there was a File 40 from August 1913 that talked to dedication of a number of roads and trading of other roads to Peconic Bay Realty.  I've reproduced it below.  The first highlighted part describes in text a road through the Shinnecock Hills which it later refers to as the North Road.

That reference indicates that they ACCEPT an EXISTING road, the NORTH ROAD

Yes, yes it does.  Finally something we agree on.  Somewhere between 1903 and 1913, Peconic Bay Realty took some sections of your green road and added other sections to make the North Highway as it was accepted in 1913 and as it is today

Further down, where I've also highlighted, it refers to the North Road as a new road which the Town is accepting while giving older unused roads back to Peconic Bay Realty.  

That's NOT what it says, it says:
It mentions roads that run North-South, connecting the South Country road to the North road, and it mentions "new roadS above mentioned", not the "singular" North Road.

But, it would be helpful if you could obtain the Seth Raynor map cited.

Did you do this research or did someone else provide it for you ?

If I had the Seth Raynor map, I'd produce it.  Unlike some others on here.  Who else would you think would be nutty enough to do this for me?

Your reading skills are deteriorating.  Read it again.  It says they accept the North Road.  It says they accept the Hills Station Road, the Peconic Road, the Tuckahoe road and the St Andrews Road all of which run north south generally and connect the South Road to the North Road.  They refer collectively to all these roads, including the North Road, as "new roads".

Based on this, I'd draw the conclusion that the North Highway as we know it in 1916, or today, was built closer to 1913 than to 1906.  Clearly, there were parts of the road there, probably in unimproved states. in 1903 and up until the new road, in its entirety, was built.  There was a section there in 1903, St Andrews Road, on which the Shinnecock Inn was built, but it must have been an unimproved road at the time.

That's your opinion, one that I don't agree with  Well, we can't agree on everything, can we.

Based on this file, it is clear that the new roads mentioned were built as private roads and then dedicated and released as public roads in 1913.  The trade-of was that Peconic Bay received a number of rights-of-way (public?) that were for roads that would be displaced by the new roads.

Those roads appear to be North-South roads, not East-West roads

The North Road is described correctly as running "Northerly and Easterly and Southerly" from the canal.  The other 5 named roads were generally north-south, although st Andrews is east-west in places.  The roads/rights of way that they got back ran in random directions.  Some, south of the LIRR at the canal end ran east-west.  Not sure what your point is?



Here below is the 1903 USGS map of the Shinnecock Hills.  I think it is the most accurate from that era.

I agree that it's accurate, and if you look carefully, between the "K" in Shinnecock and the "H" you'll see that the road is about 20-30 yards south of the water in the little inlet,.  At that point, the North Highway runs right through Mike's phantom course.  Yes, it does run close to the inlet at that point.  I don't agree with Mike's placement of the course, but I don't think the roads were a primary reason to think this.  And, without prejudice, SH had two roads running through it at the time.  It was not unheard of to build golf courses around and across roads.



David has done a good job of overlaying the various maps from the era.  I just wanted to add this one below, which shows, in Mucci-green, the 1903 "North Highway" as Patrick has described it.  I've also added, in red, the North Road/Highway provided by the metes and bounds of the Southampton Records that Andy found.  And, I've added, in yellow, the 1916 Atlas map version of the North Highway.  Both are consistent with the current routing of the road, with one exception.  The eastern end that used to run through the Shinnecock Hills golf club, currently drops southerly and runs much closer to the LIRR tracks.  No doubt a result of one of the later rebuilds of SH.

It should be noted that all the road rights-of-way were designated as 50 feet wide, much wider than the actual roads were built then, or now.

It also appears that the South Highway was not a complete contiguous road either in 1903, but was by 1913.



On the next picture, I've plotted the metes and bounds for parts of St Andrews Road and Tuckahoe Road that were dedicated as public roads in 1913.  The orange parts are stretches that abut some part of the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.  The measurements are quite precise.  They appear to match the related stretches on the 1916 Atlas map.  Unfortunately there is no mention of roads that abut other boundaries of the club.



Finally, for Patrick, a picture of the still bustling    North Highway in the 21srt century.  Next time you're out that way, maybe you could stop and see if there is a dedication stone on that bridge from the year it was built?  Or, not.

Bryan,

I can understand you ignorance with respect to the Olde and the Old North Highway since you're not familiar iwth that area.

I've taken the road depicted below hundreds of times.  I refrenced it in many of my replies
That road runs under the current Sunrise Highway just East of the Canal.
When I stay at the Hampton Maid, in Hampton Bays, I take that road, which goes under and north of the Sunrise highway to the point just west of that little inlet between the "K" and the "H" in order to avoid the backed up traffic on the Sunrise Highway, even at 6:00 am.  The Sunrise Highway replaced the North Highway as the Major Thoroughfare running East-West on the North Shore of the South Fork.  In many locations, the Sunrise Highway traverses the olde North Highway.

I knew you must take this road.  That's why I asked (perhaps facetiously, maybe not, whether you could look for the dedication stone on the bridge.  It'd be interesting to know how long it took from the Senate approval to the actual building.  As to the Olde vs Old vs Sunrise, I'm not sure what your point is?  I would guess that the Olde is the Muccian-green road, the Old is the North Highway as built by 1913, and the Sunrise is the "new" expressway.  Surely you're not suggesting that CBM should have known they were going to build the Sunrise expressway through this property.  

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

I do not doubt the accuracy of that 1907 Automobile Bluebook, but if you'd like to check it out yourself via google books.  "1907 Automobile Bluebook"

I don't understand your comments about the mileage.  The book provided directions for recommended routes.  Southampton was on "Route No. 1" in the Long Island Section; New York and Brooklyn to Sag Harbor, N.Y. - 115 Miles:  "Main thorofare from Long Island City and Jamaica, via the "South Shore," to Southampton and Bridgehampton, connecting for Sag Harbor, Shelter Island and Greenport. Extension Route to Amagansett."   The mileage gives distance from the beginning of the route to that point which appears to have been midtown Manhattan. So via their recommended route it was 96 miles to the canal and 100 miles to Southampton (so it was 4 miles across.)    

According to Google Maps it is 95 miles from Grand Central Station to Southamption via the Southern State Parkway and  NY-27, so the 1907 measure of 100 miles via less direct roads seems about right to me.

Looking at the land plan and a number of the maps, I do not think that the Shinnecock Inn was directly along the route shown on the 1903 map.   Close, but not quite.   It looks to have been along Golf road on the land plan.  

Your original quote was out of context and therefore mislead me.  I thought the 96 miles referred to the distance from the canal through the Shinnecock Hills.  As you've described it now, it makes more sense.

On the 1916 Atlas map it is darn close.  If you want to argue a hundred feet or something, off the "highway",  I'm not going to go there.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

If you look carefully, you can see the overpass for the Sunrise Highway in the distance behind (north of) the Railroad Trestle.  Now you're really beginning to worry me.  The Sunrise Bridge is 1000 feet north and around a curve from here.  Next you'll be telling me you can see the Atlantic from here! 



The road depicted is in almost the exact location at the North Highway in the Olmsted Map, which as we all know, ran right smack down the middle of Mike's phantom golf course.  Just a reminder that the Olmstead Map was a "plan" not an as built map.  This section of road is today, exactly where it was when it was dedicated to the Town in 1913.  This road and location is not on the 1903 map.  When was the bridge built?  You really need to find that dedication stone.  I'll host you at my club if you can get us a picture of the dedication stone proving the build date and it's before the end of 1907.     Who cares where the phantom course is.  We have no proof one way or the other.  No need to demean Mike in the process.

The next time you're in that area, where the Old North Highway intersects with the Sunrise Highway, just a little west of the little inlet, between the "K" and "H" in the 1903 map, stop in at the "Lobster Inn" a nice restaurant right on that little inlet.  They have some nice waiters and waitresses who've been there since 1902 and they can tell you all about the fact that they located the Lobster Inn on the Sunrise/North Highway for prudent business reasons, just like the Shinnecock Inn did.

Man, that'd be something to see, wait staff who were around since 1902!  Are they vertical, or horizontal? Above or below ground?  Do I need a medium to talk to them?

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

The papers reported 250 acres, I think it was transposed from 205 acres, but I would suggest it looked more like this;

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