[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks for the legend.  I did look up wood roads, and it appears they were mono directional two rut sand tracks for wagons hauling lumber from the forests in the area.  If they were old wood roads in 1916 I assume they were probably old in 1906/07 too.  The Shinnecock Hills were pretty well deforested at that time. Hardly the busy arterial road that Patrick would have us believe.

Interesting.  What is your reference?  Here's one reference.  http://chestofbooks.com/gardening-horticulture/Journal-8/The-Garden-Or-America.html I ask because I have seen the same phrase used elsewhere in Long Island to describe good gravel roads.   And the "wood road" reference classifies every single road as "wood roads" (including roads in the village of Southampton) except for the recommended roads.  It doesnt seem likely that they were all old lumber roads.  I don't disagree.  But it seems likely to me that the roads in the Shinnecock Hills were more likely logging roads.  They seem pretty randon and there was really nobody living there at the time.  It has been described as a desolate wasteland at the time.  And the lumber explanation does not match the description of how the highways were formed in the city records, does it?   Also,  I don't know the history of SH but I have read in an old history that the area had very few trees and may never have had trees.   (In fact I have a photo somewhere I will try and find.)Is it possible that that the name was used for roads that crisscross the countryside like lumber roads, even if they weren't lumber roads?  It's possible.  But why were there roads crisscrossing the area when nobody lived there.  There appear to be many roads beyond Patrick's supposed North Highway.  I have seen articles that say that Long Island provided most of the firewood to heat NYC at some point.

I have also seen references to wood roads being sand covered by wood chips.  Sort of like this:

The Senate document places the crossing as 9,440 feet from Good Ground Station or where the old wood road crosses the tracks under the "H" in Shinnecok. If the 1916 map is to be believed, that's not where the crossing was in 1916.  And, I have no explanation of that.

Not sure I follow you here.  I measured 9440 ft from the Good Ground Station and I come out at North Highway crossing, just east of the canal.  There is still an underpass there today.   I have the old Good Ground station at the where Springville Rd crosses the tracks in Hamptons.  This site describes the history of the station.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Bays_(LIRR_station)  I think the station back then was closer to Ponquogue.  In any case, if it was just east of the canal, then why don't the 1903 and 1904/5 maps show a road of any sort crossing the LIRR in that location just east of the canal?

[Bryan Izatt]

Arggh, I lost my response.  This stupid flipping screen thing is driving me crazy.  The emoticons are back but the preview is gone again.

My screen has also started jumping again once I get further into a response.
The first few lines are OK, but, after that, the jumping begins.

Do you suppose there is tech support somewhere where we could report this?

The point I'm trying to make is that the North highway otherwise known as Cherry Tree road was not a busy superhighway in 1906 as you would have us believe.  

Bryan, in Mike's attempt to marginalize and dismiss the North Highway, he refered to it as a "Superhighway"  
Why would you resort to employing the same tactic ? I wasn't aware that Mike had called it that and I was not trying to follow his lead.  I should have said main commercial arterial thoroughfare.
I never said it was a "superhighway".  
What I claimed was that it was THE MAIN road, from the canal, running East-West on the North Shore of the South Fork.
The overwhelming body of evidence, vis a vis maps and New York State Senate documents support my claim

I disagree for the reasons in the posts above.

What ever issues you have with Mike about highways in 1914 is not ny battle.

The conclusion I would draw is that there was an improved road called the South highway and a network of old logging tracks in the Shinnecock Hills in 1906/07.

Then you've drawn the wrong conclusion.
Why would the owners of the NEW Shinnecock Inn site their brand new, huge hotel on the North Highway, if it wasn't a main artery in 1906    ?  ?  ?  I don't know.  It seems like an odd location.  It's not near the sea or any of the small towns of the time.  The only thing that was close was SH and the proposed NGLA.  Could you tell me who was using this main artery in 1906?  The population density of the area was minmal.  The summer traffic was presumably mainly from NYC and largely coming by train.

Do you think they'd site this magnificent new large hotel on a two rut logging path as you claim ?  Perhaps it was the Bandon Dunes of its time - a little off the beaten path  

I know how difficult it is for you to admit that I'm right and you're wrong, but, you've had so much experiece at that, that you'd think you'd be used to it by now    You're always right, and I'm never wrong, so let's call it a no decision.

It's clear, by the reference to the "New" North Highway, that there was an "Old" North Highway, the one that appears northernmost on all of the maps dating back to 1873.  Sometimes new is just new as Jeff pointed out to you.  A new house does not necessarily replace an old house - otherwise new subdivisions would never get built

Do you think that that Shinnecock Hills Golf Club sited their clubhouse on or off of a two rut logging path, or off of a main road ?  Beats me.  Do you have any photos or source documents that shows the road to nowhere on which the clubhouse was built in the late 1800's was a rut, a dirt road, or a gravel road

I wonder if you can tell me who the members of SH were in the late 1800's and early 1900's.  I assumed they were successful rich NYC business men. Did they play their golf mainly on weekends?  Weekdays?  What percentage would have taken the train out for the weekend of golf and to go to their summer homes.  Or do you think they did daily commutes from NYC by horse and carriage?  I am curious on how golf was played in those days.  No argument required, I'm just curious as to your views.  It surely must have been different that today where we jump in the car, play a round, have dinner at the club and then hop in the car and go home.

[Mike Cirba]

More "period" information from a website about the Hamptons:

By the 1870's the extension of the Long Island Railroad from Eastport to Sag Harbor, passing through the Hills substantially cut down the three-day journey from Shinnecock to Brooklyn, and was the beginning of real development there. The Shinnecock train station build in 1877 was the first real building erected in the Hills.

After passing through several corporate hands, 3,596 acres of the property owned by the Proprietors was sold to the Long Island Improvement Company, which had been created by Austin Corbin, President of the Long Island Railroad, and a group of New York City investors. Villa sites were sold for $3,000 per acre with the restriction that only cottages costing $5,000 or more could be built.

By 1893, the Long Island Improvement Company collapsed, having sold off 810 acres. The remaining acreage was purchased by the Shinnecock Land Company which sold fourteen parcels and then sold out to the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Company in 1906.

By 1906 there were eighteen homes in the Hills - all summer residences used from July to Labor day.  However, the development of Shinnecock Hills into a premier summer colony was deterred by the panic 1907 and the reinstatement of the income tax in 1913. Public auctions in 1925 and 1929 resulted in the further sale of hundreds of plots.

[Mike Cirba]

When we talk about "roads", it's important to remember the source of this whole discussion;  to wit, it was the contention of both Patrick and David that there was no way CBM could have been looking at the land I suggested that was west of 1906 Shinnecock Hills (which at that time was virtually due south of NGLA), skirted the Long Island railroad to the south, and whose western boundary extended to the canal between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station, both arguing vociferously that the "North Highway" was running smack dab right through it in 1906.

This is important to keep in mind now that neither David nor Patrick are willing to tell us exactly where they think that "highway" actually was located in 1906, even though they've been asked repeatedly by multiple people here.

But yet, this is what David wrote after I suggested that this might be the land described in those October 1906 articles he posted;

Like in the post above, for example.   You have shamelessly pretended that those articles were referencing the 120 acres of land near the canal, again and again, post after post, lame-ass drawing after lame-ass drawing, not suggesting but insisting - INSISTING - that you knew best and that your contrived pencil thin outline containing a highway was definitely the right land.   Wasting all of our time with your bullshit.  To no avail.

So what's next for you?   You just segue from one smelly pile of misinformation into the next smelly pile of misinformation.  This time you create an entirely new attempted transaction!  Let's pretend that in additon to the other properties, CBM was also trying to buy this bizarre two mile narrow strip of property containing the highway.   Never mind that there is NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for this.  Never mind that he'd have to have been an IDIOT to conceive of such a thing.    Those things do not matter to you.  You want it to be true, so you will not let minor details like facts get in your way.  You'll just make up some more crap and pretend like you know best.   And we will all waste another week of watching you try to pound your round peg into a square hole.  

Hard to imagine, but Patrick was even more apoplectic;

If he did, he must have been drinking heavily because that light yellow enclosure of yours has a highway running right smack down the middle of it.

Mike, it is dishonest, not just intellectually dishonest, but flat out dishonest, when you make things up and then draw predetermined, erroneous conclusions, presenting them as factually bona fide.

That land was NOT empty.
The NORTH Highway, the predecessor to the Sunrise Highway ran right through it, all the way to Amagansett.
The NORTH Highway ran right through the center of your golf course.


In response, back about 20 pages of screamed accusations and personal insults ago, I posted the following map and commentary, about which Patrick has continually claimed since that I stated no other roads including the North Highway even existed in Long Island by 1914.  

His hyperbole is just that;   I never claimed anything of the sort.   In fact, here is my supposed "lie" and what I wrote at the time;


Even by 1914 it looks as though the highway to the South Fork was south of the tracks, not north of it.   I also like the way the scaled map shows the exact location of each Railroad Station, giving us a better idea of how far apart the original Shinnecock Hills station was from "Golf Grounds".

Was there any development north of the track in Shinnecock at this early time?

From the looks of things here, the "inlet" between Good Ground and the Shinnecock Hills Train Station would appear to be the Canal, no?







You would have thought I'd set fire to the NGLA clubhouse so vehement and vile has been the flurry of insults and recriminations.  

Heaven forbid that I actually try to locate a site CBM may have potentially looked at prior to purchasing NGLA, a site suggested by the landmarks cited in the October 1906 articles David posted.   Those guys are sooo sure that the land in question is the current site, even though the western border is 1.5 miles from the western border of today's NGLA, that they feel it necessary to bully and insult any one who dares suggest that it isn't.

This has moved past parody into comical absurdity.    We are now having a discussion about a Highway to nowhere where David is trying to convince Bryan that words and definitions don't mean what they mean...

18 freaking houses in all of Shinnecock Hills at the time.   18.

Virtually ALL of them in the southern section below the tracks sited above Shinnecock Bay.

And yet supposedly the area above the tracks is serviced by an immovable highway that would have precluded anyone from building a golf course up near Cold Spring Bay where I suggested.

Brilliant.    Too Freaking funny!

I think I'll just go back to the sidelines and cancel my subscription to "Joke of the day", because sitting back and watching Patrick and David, while still both refusing to actually tell us where their supposed "Highway" existed in 1906, still try to tell us they are right.

Amazing.

Funnier still is the contention from Patrick and David that the reason I am arguing that the October articles are not the site of NGLA because...get this...it's part of my Master Planned Agenda to prove that Merion wasn't designed by CBM in a day.    

Somehow, by refusing to stretch out CBM's design timeline by an additional two months because I don't think those articles refer to the land he actually bought, I'm advancing my Machavellian agenda to show that CBM would have taken a much more methodical approach than all those foreign pros who came before him.   Follow that logic?    


Anyway, here's the 1914 Atlas from which I made my original contention that no major highway existed above the Railroad tracks, even by that late date.  

We know from the metes and bounds produced earlier that it wasn't even proposed to be a public road until 1913, and I'm pretty sure that never got built as described in that document, and am looking forward to seeing Bryan's efforts to map it out.

In any case, I also hope someone can find the full page of this map...the one I took is cropped on the left side and you can't read the entire key.

In any case, I'm done here and have presented every bit of information I could find on early NGLA.   I hope some have found it of interest and value.    

Just wanted to let folks know why I'm now Public Enemy number one and worthy of pages of insult from those two brilliant researchers and analysts who seek nothing but the truth.


 

[JESII]

Mike,

The whole road chase has been a trial to wade through, but the truth is, it only arose because you refuse to believe the one key word in that snippet from October..."secured"!

The description of the location of the land is clearly vague so mapping out its speculative location is pointless. Assuming the word secured was a negotiating ploy by CBM is quite another matter considering the developers would surely have known if he bought something whether or not it was their land...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I'm not sure I understand your point.

This is the first of those articles, from a New York newspaper on Oct 15, 1906.   Apparently two similar articles were posted in Boston the next day, and David speculated that may have been because of a tournament at Myopia where CBM may have been in attendance, which seems odd given it showed up in NYC first.

In any case, what is it that you think I'm not understanding or accepting from this article?

[JESII]

So you accept that CBM secured the current site of NGLA prior to October 15, 1906? Great!

[JESII]

The fact is, it's much simpler to accept that CBM saw the land and knew it would work because of the terrain and got a verbal agreement to buy 205 acres. The coincidence of wanting to use the Shinnecock Inn as a temporary clubhouse and locating a few key holes narrowed down the possible land he would buy to some version of the narrow strip he bought. By December he had determined the exact route the course would follow and had a good idea of the tee and green locations of each hole, otherwise he wouldn't have placed the stakes where he wanted them and signed the contract.

This assumption of him having a good idea of the tee and green locations is based on the handful of key features he identified and the resulting need for certain hole types.

I know the December articles say the next several months will be used to select the proper hole distances etc...I'd suggest that was different variations on the same theme.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

1.  Historical Research.  Your first post above provides long quote from what you identify as "a website about the Hamptons."   
    -  Again, could you please provide some sort of a useable reference when you provide such quotes?   
    -  Was this the website?  http://www.thehamptons.com/showhouse/shinnecock.html   
    -  If so, do you have any idea where the website got its information?   Surely we shouldn't take everything you read on a random website as gospel, should we?     

2. Your next Post  In my opinion your next post contains a number of misrepresentations about what has transpired here, I won't bother even addressing most of it.   I tried to explain to Jeff Brauer my frustration in these matters above, and so I won't go through it all again here, either.  I've also indicated that I will work to keep it more civil.   
   I wish you could comprehend that there is quite a lot of legitimate frustration behind that incivility, and it largely stems from the way you have approached this material.  Rather than ranting at us and angrily making yet another grand exit, perhaps you should calm down and carefully consider how we got to this point?   Could it hurt?   

3. The Road Issue.  Not sure why you are so upset about me answering Bryan's questions. My conversation with him has nothing to do with your theories.  I am doing it out of common courtesy and because that is where my conversation with him lead.  As I have said, I think this road issue is a complete irrelevancy, but since you asked I think the North Highway was probably in about the same spot in late 1906 as is shown on the 1907 map I posted.   

4.  My quote.  In those two paraghaphs of mine that you quote I was obviously frustrated and probably should have toned it down.  Sorry about that. 
   Colorful imagery aside I think there was a lot of truth in my description of your methodology, aside from my optimistic estimate as to how long this tangent would take.  I estimated that we would probably have to waste another week dealing with this third-site theory.  One week.  That quote was from February 12.  Over five weeks have passed and since then.   Five weeks of exactly what I described, excluding the colorful language of course. 

5. A Suggestion.  Instead of this endless discussion about how we discuss things, perhaps we can move the conversation forward?   

On at least two occasions, I have listed out some of the reasons that I do not think that the  October articles were describing the site "near the canal."
   - Do you agree that the October articles were not talking about the site described in Scotland's Gift as "near the canal."
   - If not, then perhaps you could actually address the various reasons I listed? 

Thanks.

[Mike Cirba]

So you accept that CBM secured the current site of NGLA prior to October 15, 1906? Great!

Jim,

That would certainly be simple and probably save a lot of time and energy for me to agree (not to mention being the brunt of personal insults) but it wouldn't be intellectually honest or sincere at all, so sorry...can't buy it.

I say that for a number of reasons;

First, we know that virtually every newspaper in NYC reported the weekend after December 14th that CBM signed contracts to "secure" 205 undetermined acres of the 450 available on Sebonac Neck on that Friday.

The articles are all very detailed, and include direct quotes from CBM detailing what his plans are over the next several months.   These are hardly vague or general, but get down to actually deciding which holes and features to reproduce, and the process for doing so, including making plasticine models to guide the builders and shapers.

Secondly, we also know that the purchase for the exact land that CBM eventually staked out after he routed the golf course didn't take place until the spring of 1907.

CBM himself tells us he didn't secure the land until "November 1906", so to suggest this happened in October, or two months prior to signing papers to that effect just doesn't ring true to me.

Next, there is the "location", which you describe as vague".

I'd argue that there is no way someone could mean the 450-acre portion of land of known as Sebonac Neck if they referred to it skirting the Long Island RR to the south.    Heck Jim...there is no way someone would be referring to Sebonac Neck by saying it ended at the inlet between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station...that's 1.5 miles away from NGLA!    We also know that virtually all of Shinnecock Hills GC was due South of NGLA at that time, so to hear it was an "eastern" neighbor is a stretch, at best.

So, I'm confused by those October articles, frankly.

They are wrong on multiple counts.   They mention 250 acres, yet CBM and Whigham had been telling folks that they needed 200 or just a bit more than that for the previous two years, and settled on 205.

It is not a coincidence that the 205 acre number worked out exactly to the number CBM wrote he'd need in his original prospectus to potential Founding members where he said he'd need;

110 acres for the golf course
5 acres for clubhouse and surrounds
1.5 acre building lots for 60 Founders = 205 acres

Do you think it's just some strange coincidence Jim that he secured exactly 205 undetermined acres of the 450 avabilable in the first place?   What exactly are the odds of that?!?

The article also talks about the land already having been measured, surveyed down to the foot, maps made and distributed to foreign experts, a cost overall of $100,000, and several other items that don't seem to jive with either the timing or the other known facts.

So no, as much as I'd like to just agree with the over-simplification of events as ascribed to by you and David, I don't honestly believe that to be the case.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I appreciate your last post a great deal.   Thank you very much.

I'm not sure we'll agree in the end but I do think we can disagree much more agreeably and I'll look forward to that.

I'm running short on time today but will try to answer your questions sincerely by tomorrow.

Mike

[JESII]

Mike,

If you were traveling to Shinnecock by car from New York City would you hit NGLA first? How about by boat? I think you'd have to try hard not to hit NGLA first...does that give you a different perspective on the East-West overanalysis?

If you were in NYC writing for a newspaper in 1906, how would you have described the location with notable landmarks?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

In 1906 if you were travelling from NYC to NGLA by car or train you'd hit Shinnecock Hills first.

David and I have quibbled over the exact dimensions but by 1916 the area outlined in black is the general shape of Shinnecock Hills GC.

In 1906 we don't have anything definitive, but I don't believe it ran quite so far west and possibly not quite as far north.

In either case, coming along the tracks, or along the existing road system you'd still hit Shinnecock first, and NGLA would be directly to your left after a bit, or due north.

Kind of like today, actually, with the only difference being that large areas to the north of today's Shinnecock GC...from about the number 2 green north, weren't owned by the club at that time, and were part of a purchase made in the 1920s, which makes today's Shinnecock course appear much more east of NGLA than was the case in 1906.

[JESII]

Yeah, that's right...I was thinking of driving along the north road, or of coming in by boat into Cold Spring Pond or Sebonak Creek, whichever...just trying to open a door to what could have been the author's perspective since it seems the sum total of landmarks would be unachievable...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Arggh, I lost my response.  This stupid flipping screen thing is driving me crazy.  The emoticons are back but the preview is gone again.

My screen has also started jumping again once I get further into a response.
The first few lines are OK, but, after that, the jumping begins.

Do you suppose there is tech support somewhere where we could report this?

I had this problem about a month or so ago, then it went away, and now it's returned, so, I would think that someone could help us cure the glitch.

The point I'm trying to make is that the North highway otherwise known as Cherry Tree road was not a busy superhighway in 1906 as you would have us believe.  

Bryan, in Mike's attempt to marginalize and dismiss the North Highway, he refered to it as a "Superhighway"  
Why would you resort to employing the same tactic ? I wasn't aware that Mike had called it that and I was not trying to follow his lead.  I should have said main commercial arterial thoroughfare.
I never said it was a "superhighway".  
What I claimed was that it was THE MAIN road, from the canal, running East-West on the North Shore of the South Fork.
The overwhelming body of evidence, vis a vis maps and New York State Senate documents support my claim

I disagree for the reasons in the posts above.

What ever issues you have with Mike about highways in 1914 is not ny battle.

The conclusion I would draw is that there was an improved road called the South highway and a network of old logging tracks in the Shinnecock Hills in 1906/07.

Then you've drawn the wrong conclusion.
Why would the owners of the NEW Shinnecock Inn site their brand new, huge hotel on the North Highway, if it wasn't a main artery in 1906    ?  ?  ?  

I don't know.  It seems like an odd location.  It's not near the sea or any of the small towns of the time.  
The only thing that was close was SH and the proposed NGLA.  Could you tell me who was using this main artery in 1906?  

Actually, it is close to the sea, and it's near/in Southampton.
Before the Railroad, EVERYONE traveling on the North Shore used it to get East-West.
Golfers going to Shinnecock used it.
Vacationers and travelers staying at the Shinnecock Inn used it.
Commerce used it.

The population density of the area was minmal.  

If that was true, then there would be NO NEED to build a railroad to traverse the South Fork, would there ?
Obviously, there was sufficient commerce and travel to merit the creation of a rail line to service that area.
You don't build railroads to nowhere

The summer traffic was presumably mainly from NYC and largely coming by train.


How'd they get there before there were trains ?

Do you think they'd site this magnificent new large hotel on a two rut logging path as you claim ?  
Perhaps it was the Bandon Dunes of its time - a little off the beaten path  

Nah, it was right on the beaten path,, The North Highway.

I know how difficult it is for you to admit that I'm right and you're wrong, but, you've had so much experiece at that, that you'd think you'd be used to it by now    You're always right, and I'm never wrong, so let's call it a no decision.

Sounds reasonable

It's clear, by the reference to the "New" North Highway, that there was an "Old" North Highway, the one that appears northernmost on all of the maps dating back to 1873.  
Sometimes new is just new as Jeff pointed out to you.  A new house does not necessarily replace an old house - otherwise new subdivisions would never get built

Except that prior maps and official papers document the prior existance of the North Highway.
You can't ignore the fact of prior reference

Do you think that that Shinnecock Hills Golf Club sited their clubhouse on or off of a two rut logging path, or off of a main road ?  

Beats me.  Do you have any photos or source documents that shows the road to nowhere on which the clubhouse was built in the late 1800's was a rut, a dirt road, or a gravel road

I thought your photo of the road in the Vanderbilt Races was rather revealing.
A wide, well compacted dirt road.  These roads were used for centuries before the auto was introduced.
Mike would have us believing that commerce and travel in 1914/1907 were just out of the Iron Age.

As to getting to Shinnecock, Using Mike Cirba like logic, I think it's reasonable to assume that the golfers were airlifted to the practice area and walked from there to the clubhouse.  You don't site a clubhouse in a location that's inaccessible.
At some point, common sense should be at the foundation of your position.
The notion that a huge, brand new, relocated hotel, with a nice driveway, with garages available would be sited on anything but a major road is unrealistic.

I wonder if you can tell me who the members of SH were in the late 1800's and early 1900's.  I assumed they were successful rich NYC business men. Did they play their golf mainly on weekends?  Weekdays?  What percentage would have taken the train out for the weekend of golf and to go to their summer homes.  Or do you think they did daily commutes from NYC by horse and carriage?  I am curious on how golf was played in those days.  No argument required, I'm just curious as to your views.  It surely must have been different that today where we jump in the car, play a round, have dinner at the club and then hop in the car and go home.

Even today, NGLA is a seasonal club.
As we type, the club is closed.
Like ANGC, Seminole and others, the season seems to dictate the level of activity.
I suspect that many had their estates located on the South Fork, where they would summer for the season.
Sabin would seem to be a reasonable example.
Others probably stayed at the Inns/Hotels for short or long durations.
And others probably drove and/or railed to the area for varying durations.
Others probably stayed as guests with fellow members, for a weekend, week, month, season.
Don't forget, the pace wasn't as frenetic as it is today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

When we talk about "roads", it's important to remember the source of this whole discussion;  to wit, it was the contention of both Patrick and David that there was no way CBM could have been looking at the land I suggested that was west of 1906 Shinnecock Hills (which at that time was virtually due south of NGLA), skirted the Long Island railroad to the south, and whose western boundary extended to the canal between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station, both arguing vociferously that the "North Highway" was running smack dab right through it in 1906.

Mike, don't blame David or myself.
It was YOU who posted the map showing the North Highway running smack down the middle of your phantom golf course, not David nor me.  It was your own posting of that map which depicted the North Highway running right down the entire middle of your alleged golf course.  You just failed to carefully examine the map you posted.  You didn't even bother to perform any degree of due diliegence.  Don't blame David or myself for your gaff.


This is important to keep in mind now that neither David nor Patrick are willing to tell us exactly where they think that "highway" actually was located in 1906, even though they've been asked repeatedly by multiple people here.

Once again, you're lying.
I've answered that question, over and over again.
To help you out, here's the map YOU posted with the North Highway running right smack down the middle of your phantom golf course.  How much clearer can one get.  When you combine this map with all the others, the answer is pretty obvious, you just don't want to accept it because it destroys another of your wild baseless speculations







In addition, here's the 1903 New York State Map showing the North Highway running through your phantom course.



And, three other maps to refresh your memory, one from 1905
1905 Automobile Club Map



1916 Suffolk County Atlas Map





 

And, don't forget the 1906 New York State Senate documents which describe the North Highway as it crossed NORTH of the Railroad tracks.

And, don't forget the 1906-07 advertisement for the Shinnecock Inn, located on the North HIghway
Here's an another advertisement from June 2, 1907.  Please read the part about the good roads.

 

Only you, with your stated agenda, could deny the existance o fthe North Highway in 1906-07

In response, back about 20 pages of screamed accusations and personal insults ago, I posted the following map and commentary, about which Patrick has continually claimed since that I stated no other roads including the North Highway even existed in Long Island by 1914.  

His hyperbole is just that;   I never claimed anything of the sort.   In fact, here is my supposed "lie" and what I wrote at the time;

Even by 1914 it looks as though the highway to the South Fork was south of the tracks, not north of it.   I also like the way the scaled map shows the exact location of each Railroad Station, giving us a better idea of how far apart the original Shinnecock Hills station was from "Golf Grounds".

You know, you just can't tell the truth.  You are lying again. Fortunately, I saved your post/comment.
And what you stated above is NOT what you wrote above the 1914 map you posted.
I previously quoted what you wrote, but, since you can't tell the truth, I'll repost your quote again.


That shouldn't be surprising....here's a Highway Map from 1914 and it still wasn't in existence as only the South Highway was built.


The record, written in your own hand  above, speaks for itself, and no amount of denial on your part will change that.

Funnier still is the contention from Patrick and David that the reason I am arguing that the October articles are not the site of NGLA because...get this...it's part of my Master Planned Agenda to prove that Merion wasn't designed by CBM in a day.  

Mike, you clearly stated in a written reply that your agenda was to prove that CBM didn't route NGLA in short order.

Are you now going to claim you never made that statement ?

Here's your quote from reply # 437
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Actually, that's where you're most wrong.

If I have an agenda, it's not to show that CBM could not have routed a course in a day's effort like the early British pros before him.

That's an absurd proposition...you or I could route a course in a day if pressed, although the results would almost surely betray our puny efforts.

So you're misunderstanding me, and perhaps that's my fault.

Instead, my agenda has been to show that CBM WOULD not have routed a course in a day's effort like the early British pros before him. That is very much to his credit, and a fundamental reason why NGLA is so monumentally great.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

I can't tell if you are being honest or not, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

That April 1907 "map" I posted is NOT a map.

It's a PLAN.

It does not reflect reality....it reflects what the company ENVISIONED.

By that time, CBM had ALREADY SELECTED his land further to the northeast, and it's indicated on the map.

As you can see, it was virtually all DUE NORTH of the land of Shinnecock Hills GC.

That PLAN also has the supposed North Highway running right over today's  10th tee at NGLA.

IT WAS NEVER BUILT along the Red Line I indicated on that map and I have to believe YOU KNOW THAT.

IT DIDN"T EXIST at all along that stretch in 1907 and I have to believe YOU KNOW THAT.





The maps you posted from 1903 and 1905 show a road, a smaller dirt road, running along but much further south towards the railroad tracks and NOT in the area where I drew the hypothetical golf course.   Back then there was plenty of area between Cold SPring Bay and that dirt road, all the way from Shinnecock out past the inlet to build a golf course.   Plenty.

Besides, if any part of it did affect any proposed golf plans, what did exist as a road north of the tracks was so marginal and infrequently used (with all of 18 houses in existence in all of Shinnecock Hills at the time, all most all of them south of the tracks) that there is no doubt that any of it interfering with any grander plans like a golf course could have been easily moved/replaced as Alvord saw fit.   Today's cart paths have more permanence and structure.

It was so marginal Pat, that even by 1914 it was NOT included on a highway map of NYC and Long Island, yet the South Highway was clearly shown.    

Not even big enough to be considered...I almost feel sad for it.

Bryan has shown you that, I've now explained it in almost childlike terms and I hope that's the end of it.

If you're confused, then perhaps you should slow down and read more carefully before continuing to fire personal insults and angry barrages.

[JESII]

Mike,

Isn't this a rendering you created a couple weeks ago as a possible location being described in the October articles? I thought it was this suggestion that created the debate about roads...

It's clear from those maps that, at a minimum, the road runs through a good chunk of the property when measured against the bounds of Cold Spring Pond...

Yes? No?

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

Isn't this a rendering you created a couple weeks ago as a possible location being described in the October articles? I thought it was this suggestion that created the debate about roads...

It's clear from those maps that, at a minimum, the road runs through a good chunk of the property when measured against the bounds of Cold Spring Pond...

Yes? No?

Patrick,

Yes, it's what I drew, but what you're somehow failing to either understand or acknowledge is that the North Highway you see in today's aerial is not what existed in 1906 when CBM was looking at possible sites for his golf course.

That Highway was never built as on the Olmstead Plan because Olmstead had it running up through today's NGLA, right over the original first tee.  

He had it running north of Shinnecock Hills at the time, which would have gone right through today's golf course, as well.

As you know, it was eventually built running south of Shinnecock Hills GC. back down along the tracks through that stretch.

In 1903 and 1905, it looks as though the primary west/east road running north of the tracks at the time had a piece that ran North to Peconic Bay somewhere west of the inlet, and then swept down much further south towards the tracks than what Olmstead proposed on the 1907 drawing.   I do not see any part of it affecting the land I suggested might be the land CBM originally considered and if any portion intersected so as to interfere with grander plans like CBM's golf course, I don't see it would it have been too difficult to re-route a dirt road.

Also, Patrick, that yellow box I drew is just a rough approximation.   I have no idea how many acres it includes, but I wanted to show one potential site that matched up to the landmarks discussed in those October 1906 articles and based it on a general out and back routing that went along for about as far as NGLA does in a straight line and back, only this time stretching along Cold SPring Bay heading to Peconic Bay as opposed to stretching along Bulls Head Bay heading towards Peconic Bay that he ended up with.

I don't think it's crazy or unreasonable...much less lying.

[JESII]

Mike,

I posted that, and was looking at the road in the 1903 map that runs through the middle of your proposed site for about half the east/west length. I'm not calling it a super highway or anything, just that there was a road through the middle of your proposed area...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Sorry for the confusion.

All I can say in response is 1) Then NGLA could not have been built for much the same reason as a road runs right through it.     and 2) I'm not sure that's drawn accurately as it doesn't seem to have the road indicated in the same place as the 1905 Automobile map.

[JESII]

I think the maps show inconsistencies that can be taken with a grain of salt...I don't think the roads moved so much as different map makers drew them slightly different prior to laser technology.


I still revert to my primary position from 20 pages ago that this was a three step process (primary steps anyway):

1 - CBM rides over the land and determines in general it's suitable to build his course. Initially it is a non-specific portion of the 450 acre parcel although it is somewhat situated due ot the location of a handful of key features. This is prior to Oct 15.
2 - Between October and December the whole team has a look and begin making suggestions and a great number of holes are identified and the exact boundaries can be drawn and the option contract signed by the December date.
3 - Through the winter the company CBM formed collects the subscription money formalized the business plan and in the Spring the final purchase is executed.


The December articles suggesting the boundaries are undetermined and the holes, as well, are yet to be determined simply says to me that they hadn't completed the plans exactly. The fact that they signed contracts for this specific piece of land is too compelling as evidence that CBM knew exactly where he was going to go with his course.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Here's a rough approxiimation of what i originally drew in yellow now in black superimposed on the 1905 Auto Map;




Where exactly does it say that CBM signed contracts for this specific piece of land in December 1906?   I read just the opposite, in both the bodies of those articles as well as in CBM's directly quoted words.

I understand your theory, but I don't see that the contemporaneous evidence supports it.

[JESII]

Mike,

I know the articles say "undetermined" but we have to accept the statements of people that have bought land. I believe Jeff Brauer made it clear that there are no "informal options" although it might have been Pat.

I think we have to decide one of two things if we are really going to move forward. Either the contracts were not actually signed, or they described a specific piece of land. I cannot accept that contracts were signed for a non-specific piece of land.

In the scenario of a handshake in December for a non-specific 205 acres, CBM holds all the risk and I doubt he would put himself in that position at that point in time.

By the way, I would be happy to proceed on the assumption that there was actually no contract signed in December if there's evidence of that...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

It was Pat who said there were no such things "informal options".

But then again, Pat has said a lot of things here.

I'm not sure why it couldn't be as simple as this;

"We, the undersigned, agree that Mr. Charles Blair Macdonald, as the assigned representative of National Golf Links, will purchase 205 acres of the 450 acres available on a tract of land known as Sebonac Neck at the total cost of $40,000 within the next six months." 

"During this interim period it is understsood the Mr. Macdonald will be finding the most desirable acreage for the golf course his group is planning to build, and as such will purchase acreage contiguous within itself, as opposed to separate, multiple parcels within the larger tract in making up the 205 acres."

"Further, Mr. Macdonald will have the property surveyed and staked at his own cost".

or something like that.

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