[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

You're forgetting that the Olmstead Bros sketch, is just that a sketch, a rendering, NOT A DRAWN TO SCALE BONA FIDE MAP.

Mike's reliance on a sketch as the foundation for any argument is ............. disingenuous ?(;

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick

I am pretty sure that Olmstead was working to scale on that plan. It would be the nature of landscape architects to do so.  It is however, a concept plan. although as David's overlay and aerials show, the road pattern was followed to a large degree, which also proves it was drawn to scale.

You will note that on the 1903 map you just posted, the "North Highway" if it was that, and before the Olmstead plan was draw, mostly paralleled the railway (which would be pretty typical) and Olmstead, famous for curving roads, proposed it move away from the RR, and most likely through the commerical center of the area, but also away from straight to curved.

You will also note that today's road and probably the way it was built originally doesn't follow David's red line, and it DOES and probably did always go just south of the SI.

I will guess that while Alvord's planned community was to feature curving roads, right after that, other littler thinkers were probably thinking a "good road" should be straighter!

One map shows the burned out SI in the same location.  Why do you think the SI moved? I may have missed that one.

To be honest, I am still having trouble connecting the dots as to why all this is so important.  The October articles could be suggesting only one of three things, as I outline above.  Which is it?

[JESII]

3.   Or the final parcel either:
             a.   Prematurely reported based on rumor or preliminary reports
             b.   Bought, but put off for some glitch, and finally concluded as reported in the December articles.

Frankly, option 3 makes most sense to me.  Glitches happen all the time in deals of this magnitude.  And, it was noted in December that there was general knowledge of the deal, but the Eagle, at least, held off reporting certain items in a gentlemen's agreement, while other papers did leak it.  Leaking from secondary inside sources, like the secretary typing up the agreement, might explain:

* the 205-250 transposition,
* the vague description (maybe they really didn't know where the land was because the principals weren't talking openly about it)
* the option in December, as perhaps whatever glitch or some other aspect of the deal made CBM nervous, and he wanted the safety of knowing he could back out (even more than the ability to move borders around to suit him)

But, its just my guess against others.....

This one Jeff...but regarding your use of "glitch"...isn't it possible this was the period between "they agreed to sell us 205 etc..." and "we could locate it as best we could"?

The "locate it as best we could" would not have required exact tee/green and bunker placement, but a really firm outside border that could be moved slightly on a handshake or ammendment to the option if something came up to require it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Even though we have discussed it, I don't think there is anything such as an "informal" option, nor do I think the paper would report a lesser binding "letter of intent" as "securing the property" although, who knows?

In my mind, the most likely (and supported) glitch was the Realty Co. realizing that CBM wasn't going to write a check that day out of his own pocket.  (Remember that in Dec. the article posted instructions for sending in the subscriptions already pledged.  I know his subsribers were wealthy, but we don't know if he had collected any money in hand from them, do we? )  Maybe they had an agreement, gave CBM a month or so to get the money together (as is typical), and when he couldn't, they reopened the contract and decided to give him a formal option to extend his time frame. 

I say this because the December article also states that the land hadn't been determined yet, so that isn't likely the reason.  Besides, I think this group focuses too much on the architectural element.  The mechanics of the land deal had to be more centered on price, terms, etc. 

The other option is 1 - it was actually the first offer CBM made and that Alvord got CBM to the table and started to raise the prices (thus "providing we could get it reasonably") and it was from before October to After December that they started looking at the Sebonack Neck land and then finally consumated a deal. 

Of course, we would have to assume that CBM at some point REDUCED his scope from 205 back to 120 acres, to allow Alvord to sell the lots or to stay in his land purchase budget.  But, that is all speculation, too, before anyone mentions it!

I still doubt Mikes mystery third site, or CBM would have reported it, IMHO.  All we know is that there is an erroneous article in October 2005 and/or it reported a deal much like the "Dewey Beats Truman" headline, and Google doesn't have records of page 29 where the retraction was printed!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

It would appear that the North Highway fell under the jurisdiction of New York State.

Hence, I don't know how the Olmstead Bros would have re-aligned the North Highway.

If it took an act of the New York State Senate to relocate and reconfigure the North Highway at the railroad crossing in 1906, I would think it would take the sam action on the part of the New York State Senate to re-align the North Highway to conform to the Olmstead Bros. plan.  

That's akin to purchasing/developing a parcel of property, contingent upon rezoning, which is far from guaranteed.

With all of the official maps from government agencies, I don't see why anyone would rely on the Olmstead Bros. sketch of a proposed development plan.

I  

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

That would make a lot of sense if any of the December articles said anything remotely like that, but they don't.

They say the boundaries have been left undetermined at that point, which would have been two full months later, and that CBM and his committee would spend the next several months determining which holes to replicate and their yardages.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

That would make a lot of sense if any of the December articles said anything remotely like that, but they don't.

They say the boundaries have been left undetermined at that point, which would have been two full months later, and that CBM and his committee would spend the next several months determining which holes to replicate and their yardages.

Except that Mike is again misrepresenting what CBM was quoted as saying.  According to the quotes, he described the location of the property and even provided a number of highlights relating to features on the property including the starting and finishing point of the course, the locations of the holes modeled after probably the three most famous holes in the world and the location of another CBM thought would probably be famous.

As for Mike's oft repeated claim that the location of the had been left undermined at that point, what CBM was actually quoted as saying was, "The exact lines will not be staked out until the committee has finished its plans . . . ."  Given that CBM described not only total acreage, but also a large chunk of the border (the land along the water,) and also the location of a number of holes along the border (Alps, Eden, and Cape) and also the inland starting and finishing point near the Inn, and also how far the course stretched (2 miles,) the reasonable interpretation of this language was that the location HAD BEEN DETERMINED, but that CBM had left himself some flexibility to adjust "the exact lines" if the final plan so dictated.  

[JESII]

"but that CBM had left himself some flexibility to adjust "the exact lines" if the final plan so dictated."


With Alvord's obvious welcome agreement.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

I am not sure if anyone is relying on the Olmstead plan for anything.

However, I know you have had eye troubles, but that state document that Phil posted said they delayed their decision on the railway crossing solely due to the fact that they weren't sure it was even a public road.  It also had a local road name.  Once the highway dept told the commission that they had agreed to take the road over, only then did they decide they needed the separated crossing.

It appears to me that Alvord plotted the road (using Olmstead to design, but as an LA, I note there are some changes even to the curving roads, most likely an engineer giving them proper geometry) and donated it to the state, which then put it in their plans for the road system.

I am not sure that tecnicality means much in terms of the bigger debate.  Frankly, I have lost track of what the current debate is all about, other than most of us don't seem to think there was a mysterious third parcel depicted in those October articles, and we are trying to figure out best we can why the purchase/securing of the land was mentioned in two varying time periods.  Leak to the press?  First offer CBM made and a glitch?  Last offer made by CBM and a glitch?

If it is the last option, which I think it is, then we have the question of what glitch.  We also have the almost unknowable question of just how much work did by October vs how much he did after December.  If I am right that the glitch was in some lawyer objecting to the terms, or Alvord raising the price, or CBM needing time to get money, then its most likely that he had much of the routing work done previous to October, and certainly Dec.

This actually seems to fit what we know and the assumptions I have made in the last few posts.  I meant to say, "theories proffered".

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

You know, the more I think about it in terms of my experience in sitting in on a few similar deals, its quite possible that they were very close to agreement, but decided to put off the final until CBM narrowed down his property choice a little more precisely.  That would be just the kind of thing a real estate lawyer reviewing the contracts for Alvord would probably recommend before he signed any kind of agreement. 

Still not sure why there would be an option in December if he spent October and November just with minor tweaks, unless CBM just wanted the ability to tweak even further once settling on the basic parcel, or took the interim to tweak, but needed time to set up his corporation, get funds, etc.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff,

I don't know that there was a glitch or even if it matters.   But as I have said before, there is a big difference between the developer agreeing to sell CBM some land, on the one hand, and CBM and the developer actually coming to a formal agreement as to the conveyance of real property, on the other.  My guess is that after having figured out that the land was good, CBM went to the developer to see if this time the developer would be willing to sell him land out on the more remote section of the property not scheduled for development, and the developer agreed, generally, that he would sell him acreage for the price ($200) and that he didn't much care what acreage CBM wanted. If that is the case then they would still have been a long ways away from anything resembling the formal agreement for the conveyance of real property.  But if CBM or someone started bragging that he had found his land it would explain why the papers reported it.    I don't think it was unusual for these land deals to have been reported before they were finalized and formalized.  Merion is a good example.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

"but that CBM had left himself some flexibility to adjust "the exact lines" if the final plan so dictated."

With Alvord's obvious welcome agreement.

Jim, that was almost guaranteed since the "exact lines" were the Western border.

Three of the border lines on the long, narrow out and back routing had been established by natural and documented boundaries.

Only the Western line needed to be "fine tuned" to the exact lines.

That was an easy exercise.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

The Olmstead plan is dated 1907.

We know from the 1903 US GST map that the North Highway existed before the Olmstead plan existed and before Alvord purchased the 2,000-2,700 acres.

We also know that it was common for roads to cut through golf courses.

Garden City, where Macdonald was a member, had roads cutting through the course.

Today, both NGLA and Shinnecock have roads cutting through the course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I think our understandings/theories of NGLA and how it came together are similar. 

I agree there may have been no glitch at all, and that Merion is a good example.  If I recall, papers reported that MCC had "secured" the land around the Nov-Dec 1910 time frame, when there was only an exchange of letters, and the final deal was signed the next April.  It just took (and may still take) that long to put together land sale contracts, and I am a victim of my own time compression concept.

Patrick,

Our understandings of the North Highway are not similar at all, but its of no real import to me.

I will also continue to disagree that anything to do with designing a golf course or routing it is an easy excersise.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Here are the three maps in sequence:

1903 USGS




1905 Automobile Club Map




1916 Suffolk County Atlas Map




If you'll agree that the North Highway is as defined by the yellow line on the 1916 Map, then it didn't exist on the 1903 map or the 1905 map. Look closely.  The only part of it that is on the 1903 and 1905 maps is the short segment from the Shinnecock Inn and through SH Golf Club and a little bit to the east of it.  The majority of the highway - the portion from the canal to the Shinnecock Inn was not there in 1903 or 1905.  It must have been built sometime between 1905 and 1916. 

The canal was finished in 1892.  The highway after 1905.  I don't think they are related.

I may be absurd on this, but you're just wrong.  What was there in 1906 was a dirt tertiary road paralleling the tracks.  It could not have been a major thoroughfare in 1903 as you claim since it didn't exist in 1903.  There were only 25 buildings on the 2700 acres in 1903.  Good Ground to the west was a hamlet.  Southampton to the east not much more.  At most the whole area was a summer resort area.  Where would all this road traffic that you see on this thoroughfare come from?  All the cottagers from NYC making the 8 hour trek by horse and carriage in the summer of '03?

I understand that there is a difference between a topo map and a survey.  Do you suppose that CBM wanted a survey so that he'd know where the iron posts were defining the 2700 acres?  I assumed that he meant a topo map.  That'd be more relevant to the design process. 

Bryan & Mike,

Now we have another reliable source map, an independent map showing the existence of the North Highway.
The 1903 U.S.G.S. - State of New York survey.  

You might notice that it's the ONLY EAST-WEST Road on the North Shore of the South Fork, extending East of the Canal.

The canal was created only a few years earlier, and, I suspect the North Highway and the creation of the Canal are directly related

The body of evidence supporting the existance of the North Highway continues to increase as does your absurdly stubborn refusal to acknowledge its existance.

As to your reference that it's a dirt road, almost every road was a dirt road in 1903.
Cars were just being mass produced in 1902.
Just because a highway wasn't paved doesn't negate it's being a major thoroughfare in 1903, which the North Highway was.
In addition, there was such a high volume of traffic on the North Highway that in 1906 the New York State Senate legislated moving and reconfiguring the intersection/crossing of the North Highway with the railroad tracks for safety reasons.[/b]
[/color][/b]

I guess that CBM was wrong that it was never surveyed.


I'm not so sure about that.

A topo and a survey map are two distinctly different documents.
I have several surveys of the land I own. I"ve never seen a topo of the land I own.
And, I had to pay an engineering firm for the surveys.

...................................

[/quote]

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bryan,

Thanks for posting those maps in order. They certainly make it clear what the succession of the road is, and hopefully, Pat will stop calling us all liars! However, in the future, I think we should move the discussion of the north highway ober to EarlyroadsofLongIsland.com.

Back on point, the topo map included in 1903 is interesting for a few reasons.  First, it does show that at least a bit of topo work had been done by the USGS, but no, 20 foot contours probably aren't enough to plan a golf course then or now.  Of more interest is the swamp designation and lack of contour lines on the SW corner of the neck, just east of Cold Springs Bay, both of which are evidence of very low lying land.

This swampy area has to be what CBM referred to as the worthless land, and his pony rides provided a "eureka" moment that not all the land was worthless.  It is clear from this 1903 topo map that the ONLY place that NGLA could have been placed topographically was on the eastern border, at least economically and under a budget.  It definitely had the best topo in the property, and as it happened, connected well with the SI.

TePaul has said privately that records show that Alvord actually did fill some of the low areas that were on the NGLA property, and it is also evident that sometime later, some fill work was done because there are some homes in the lowest areas (obviously, pre wetland laws)

OT, but I wonder how looking at that land may have played out later in the design of Lido.

[Niall C]

Jeff/Mike,

Thanks for replying to my question of a couple of pages ago on whether CBM COULD have routed the course in a day. To be clear I'm not suggesting for one second that CBM did in fact do it in one day, just suggesting that it is capable of creating a ROUGH routing which would allow you to determine the extent of the land holding required for the course.

To my mind it would be a two stage process of firstly establishing what generally you could do and then secondly refining the routing to what you want to do. Before you start the second stage you would need to be fairly sure of stage 1, which would mean you would also need to have decided on what land you were using. Kind of looking at it on a macro level initially I suppose.

If on your travels you also spot a couple of likely locations for model holes that you are looking to build, then that would quickly narrow the focus would it not ? To reiterate, not saying that CBM did an intial routing in one day at NGLA, there may be good reasons to say he didn't including his own testimonial, but generically speaking I suggest he could have.

Now since I've nothing at all to add on the specifics of NGLA I'll leave you all to it.

Cheers

Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

Niall,

The routing process defies easy description, and is different every time out.  That said, yes, I often think of it broadly in terms of two phases - basic pattern and details.

The basic pattern phase often starts with just seeing if I can fit 18 holes on the property! (using my super handy plastic golf hole templates) but I doubt CBM had these, and the property wasn't tight, so I doubt he needed them here.

Phase 1-A, as it were, is to explore how to best use the property, in terms of getting out and back from the Clubhouse, where to put the range, etc.  It includes using the best natural features (most can be attacked a few ways) and also using the perimeters of the property, at least on most sites where land isn't too abundant and all of it must be used.  In the case of NGLA, the east side of the land embodied both perimeter and natural feature use.

Once its established on a general pattern, then yes, we go back and tweak.  Some holes can work at any length, others only at one length, etc.  We tweak the routing usually for max or ideal length, shortening the walks from greens to tee, etc. etc. etc.

As to narrowing the focus, I have always said that many routing mistakes are made by focusing in too closely on one signature or must have hole and making the others suffer a bit to incorporate it. It is always a delicate balance between the good of the hole and the good of the whole!

[Niall C]

Jeff

Thanks for that and I note what you say in your final line. I wonder therefore how CBM's desire to build model holes actually hampered him in his routing. I would imaging just because you find the ground to build the hole you want doesn't mean its going to fit in easily into a routing.

Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

Niall,

As I noted to Pat earlier, to me, the fact that he said "Strange as it may seem, all I had to do was look back to find a natural Redan" implies that this was a one time unusually easy occurrence of finding a golf hole, not the norm.  To me, its harder to route using pre-defined design ideas than it would be to have an open pallette as regards final golf hole design.

But, there are smarter guys than me!

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

The whole road thing came out of Mike's hypothesis that the October article indicated that there was a third property that CBM was looking at.  Then, Patrick asserted that the North Highway was a major thoroughfare in 1906.  It seems that Mike is the only believer in the third property, and Pat is the only one who thinks the North Highway existed in 1906, let alone that it was a major thoroughfare, and neither are prone to giving up their hypotheses, I'm happy to consign it to EarlyroadsofLongIsland.com.

It did however lead to the three maps which I think are useful pieces of information.

As to your latest comments about the low lying areas of Sebonac Neck, why do you suppose he would have passed up all that water front property along Peconic Bay?  Would it be that he saw the landforms he wanted along Bullhead Bay?  Otherwise the long narrow strip he picked seems like an odd configuration.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan!

CBM tells us they didn't have money for a clubhouse so they were then locked into the Shinnecock Inn, 1.45 milees away from the Peconic Bay.

That as much as anything dictated what land he would choose of the 450 available.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,  

Before you hop to next set of misrepresentations, perhaps it is "time for a little housekeeping."  Now that we know you simply made up the bit about the relative location of SHGC to suit your desired conclusion, don't you agree that your mystery third site belongs in the trash heap?  And that the October articles generally described the Sebonack Neck area?

After all, wasn't it your "aha moment" about the supposed location of SHGC land which lead you abandon our previous agreement on the issue and circle back over this particular dead carcass in the first place?
______________________________________________________

Bryan,

I really think this entire bit about the roads is a red herring, but for completeness sake here is the relevant portion of the 1873 Atlas.



I find it interesting how much variance there is in all these maps not only with the locations of the roads but also even with the shapes and locations of natural features.

Also, generally I think we should keep in mind that many of the roads around this time were not yet state roads as we think of them, but were private, and I am not sure how these maps would have marked such roads.  

Also, I haven't been following your 'discussion with Patrick about the roads (nor do I plan to if it continues) but I was under the impression that Patrick thought there was a east-west road running north of the railroad tracks and south of the area directly under Cold Spring Bay.  Setting aside the conjecture and speculation about major vs. minor and public vs. private, it looks to me as if there was such a road on all of the maps above (including the 1873 map.)

That said, I have no interest in getting into this map discussion at all.  It is a just a distraction, and I don't much care whether there were any such roads or not. It doesn't change the general description in those Oct. articles or the similar yet more specific descriptions in both Scotland's Gift in the December articles, nor does the issue of the roads have anything to do with the  lack of factual support for Mike's theory.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bryan and Mike,

My interst in this whole thing is to just be able to picture how it all played out to create a great golf course.  

No doubt water frontage, high ground and topo features vs swamps, and the desire to use the Inn all played into a pretty logical decision to locate NGLA where it got located.  (In this, I agree with Patrick, but don't think the fact that it looks so logical to me in hindsight means that it was entirely self evident in a day or two back then)

I have no doubt he tried to get more water frontage along Great Peconic Bay , and if he could have built 22 or 26 holes, he probably would have taken more!  It is probably a bit more attractive than Sebonac Bay and my impression is that not having Peconic frontage was a practical compromise.  

Once the clubhouse site set the routing, he just couldn't stretch the course far enough to make more use of Great Peconic Bay. He does lament the burning of SI just a few years later, and had he either gotten more money, thought to use a temporary clubhouse (as would be done today) or forseen that fire, I am sure there would be a few more holes along the water than ended up occurring.

BTW, Tom Doak could answer better, but from those 20 foot contours, it does appear that the land selected for the NGLA course had more ups and downs for golf features, whereas what is now Sebonac appears to be mostly a domed hill, with the old estate house up on top.  Not bad, of course, but the NGLA property does look to have more golf features on it overall.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I agree roads are not my thing either.  That said, I did notice this morning that some of the Olmstead Roads in the 1907 plan appeared to follow earlier roads, which I believe were just roads to the residences of the dozens of British Realty Co people who lived on the land then.  Nonetheless, its quite possible (I have seen it elsewhere) that their roads were quite logical use of the topo and/or Olmstead simply used what was there to save his client money, even if they were just dirt roads.

The north road on that 1973 map is a new revelation. It was probably little more than an Indian trail, at least at one time.  Again, many current day roads follow what started as Indian trails for the same reason - they were pretty savvy about laying them out to the easiest to walk or ride on horse routes, i.e. level!

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