[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

What David isn't aware of is the Aha! moment I had two days ago in reading "America's Linksland", which has a 1915 copy of a Shinnecock Hills routing in it.

Some time back, as David mentioned, in an effort to explore what it would mean to our understanding of the origins of NGLA if indeed those articles were talking about the Sebonac Neck land I relented after days of debate to go down that road (no pun intended ).

Although it's clear that the articles speak to the specific purchase of 250 acres, and then go on to describe the boundaries of that purchase being the Shinny Golf club to the east, the Long Island RR tracks to the south, Peconic Bay to the north, and the inlet between Good Ground and the Shinnecock Station to the west, and even though that western point is precisely 1.5 miles west of today's NGLA's westernmost point, and even though the RR tracks are .35 miles south of the most southern point of NGLA, and even though I had very serious reservations about the validity and accuracy of both the articles as well as the dubious premise that they were talking about the Sebonac Neck property that CBM eventually secured and purchased , I agreed to explore it for four main reasons;

1) It's possible the writer was completely lost and had described the land incorrectly.

2) If true, this wouldn't be at all inconsistent with my main premise that the planning effort as well as the routing took weeks, if not months.

3) Unlike others here, I could be wrong.

4) I was tired of arguing about dirt roads for horse and buggies that others saw as "highways".


So, in looking up other information in that book I come across the 1915 Shinnecock Map and all of a sudden, VOILA!, it hits me that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Shinnecock Hills GC to be adjacent EAST to any part of the Sebonac Neck Property, including the eventual NGLA purchase, BECAUSE THE ENTIRE SHINNECOCK GC IN 1906 IS/WAS SOUTH OF THE ENTIRE SEBONACK NECK PROPERTY.   Go figure!  

Then, I started digging a little deeper...

Next thing I knew I had found maps of the area that made very clear that the 1907 Land Plan that I'd published previously was clearly simply that...a proposal, and bore nothing on reality.   The supposed "North Highway" cutting right through the area the article suggests CBM was interested in buying was not there at all...NADA....

Instead, it existed in the form of what looks to be a cart parth/dirt road down closer to the Railroad tracks.

So, considering all of this, I went back and said....guys...WTH?  (actually, I used a slightly differnt acronym)  How could they be talking about Sebonac Neck having Shinny to the east when the entirety of that property is north of the Shinny GC at that time?!?

Now...had I been an expert on early Shinnecock Hills GC I perhaps should have realized all of that prior and brought it to everyone's attention at that time, but I'm not.

I never knew til just the other day that the entire Shinny GC was south of Sebonac Neck, but that's just me.

I'm still waiting to hear now that we know that how indeed any of those articles could talk about the purchase of 250 acres adjoining Shinnecock Hills GC to the east and yet be on Sebonac Neck, because it's impossible.

But, I'm sure we'll hear some explanation...

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Moriarty,

Would you tell all of the morons debating the use of the North Highway, and Mike Cirba who stated that it didn't exist in 1914, let alone 1906, that the automobile in America only went into large scale production in 1902.

There were no automobiles even produced in America prior to 1893.

And that, believe it or not, commerce, travel and development existed on Long Island long before 1902.

How did golfers get to Shinnecock, if not by the North Highway ?
Why was the Shinnecock Inn sited on the North Highway ?
According to Mike it was a cart path.  Why would you site a hotel on a cart path ?

Mike, Phil and others have chosen to ignore the realities of 1906, only four years after cars began being produced in large numbers in the U.S. 

Mike Cirba remains disengenuous, first claiming that the North Highway, which appeared in his posting of the 1907 Olmstead plan, didn't exist.  Then, he acknowledged its existance, then he backtracked and stated that it didn't exist in 1914, now he's stated that it existed, but, was a cart path.

The fact is that the North Highway was THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY on the North Shore of the South Fork.

The proof to that statement would be in the evolutionary development of the North Highway as THE MAIN EAST-WEST ARTERY east of the Shinnecock Canal, as contrasted with the diminishment of the South Highway as a major artery.

The fact that the North Highway paralleled the RR probably aided in its becoming THE Major East-West Artery.

Mike has no shame and will continue to misrepresent and lie, yes lie, in an attempt to promote his agenda.

Mike's posted the maps, schematics and google earth aerials of the area, not me and not David.
The North Highway ran right smack down the middle of the golf course he insisted was CBM's.

Others, (not you David) are content to let him misrepresent and lie, without so much as the slightest admonition.
I guess it's the age we live in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

That's an interesting map.

What's its date ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

Your correct on every count.  Patrick is blowing smoke over a dirt road and he's calling me disengenous.

Seeing as how cars only went into large scale production in 1902 in America, yes, I'm calling you disengenuous.
You told us the highway didn't even exist in 1914, despite seeing documents from the New York State Senate dated 1906-7 proving its existance.
That's disengenuous by any standard.

Priceless.

No, I'd say it's SOP for you.

Patrick,

Thanks for reposting that aerial of the land the October 1906 articles obviously refers to that CBM was considering.  


Mike, first you argued and argued and argued that the land CBM was considering was inside the yellow lines you drew.
Now, you've abandoned that location, conceding that you were WRONG.
I've never seen anything like it in my life.
Time after time you come up with a hair brained premise, arguing and swearing that your position is infallible, yet, time after time you're proven wrong.   Now, there's a reason for that.  It's because you're not searching for the truth.  Instead, you're searching for anything that will promote your stated agenda.  Thus, I don't consider anything you post as being posted objectively. [/b]

It gives me the opportunity to show folks exactly where Shinnecock Golf Club was located at that time.  

You already told us where it was, you told us it was in the yellow rectangle west of Shinnecock and NGLA.
You vehemently argued for that location.  Now, do you admit that you were WRONG.
How many more times will you abandon your position to adopt another ?[/b]

ALL of Shinneock GC was south of ALL of Sebonac Neck, and I'm really surprised that you and David didn't note that before trying to make it appear as though the articles in question were talking about the site of today's golf course.  :-/

I don't agree with your latest conclusion, just as I didn't agree with your prior conclusion, as you outlined in Yellow.[/b]

Of course, when the western point of the proposed purchase in the articles is 1.5 miles away from the western point of NGLA, we all should have known you both were blowing smoke up our keisters in continually representing it as today's property.

Mike, again you reference questionable articles, articles that have been proven wrong over and over again.
But, it was YOU who insisted that the course was within the rectangular area you outlined in Yellow, not me, and not David.
YOU and YOU alone INSISTED that that was the location.  Did you ever state that you were WRONG about that ?[/b]

We shouldn't have needed to figure out the Shinnecock ruse to get to the right answer, but I guess that's the game you guys want to play.

Mike, if anyone is guilty of a ruse, it's you.  YOU insisted that NGLA was located within the yellow rectangle.
Now, suddenly you want to accuse David and myself of perpetuating a ruse.
How dishonest can you get ?
YOU were the one perpetuating and arguing that NGLA was located within that yellow rectangle.
YOU and YOU alone are guilty of a ruse.
I repeat myself when I say, have you no shame ?

Fortunately, you can't erase of edit what you've posted, when it's quoted.[/b]

[Patrick_Mucci]

David, Mike, Wayno, TEPaul, Joe, Steve, et. al.

In 1904-1906 who owned the land shaded in black in my post above ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

That's an interesting map.

What's its date ?

As I replied to Mike above, it was 1916.  Here's a larger segment of it extending up into Sebonac Neck.  Interesting that they labeled it NGLA and covered a fairly extensive area in doing so.  At that time Shinnecock was still a small property and there's no indication of who owned the land that would become the current SH.  By comparing this map to the current Google aerial, one could infer that today's north highway is a bit south of where it was in 1916.  There was room for out and back holes between the LIRR tracks and the north highway near Tuckahoe Rd in 1916.  Today, no such room.

[Bryan Izatt]

As usual, not wanting to be counted amongst the morons, but ...........

David Moriarty,

Would you tell all of the morons debating the use of the North Highway, and Mike Cirba who stated that it didn't exist in 1914, let alone 1906, that the automobile in America only went into large scale production in 1902.   So, how many cars do you suppose there were in America in 1906?  How many in NYC and LI? How many paved roads to accommodate them?  In 1906, many of the streets in NYC were still cobblestone and the major mode of transportation was train and horse and carriage.  But, then maybe cars and paved roads came earlier to the Shinnecock Hills than they did to NYC.  The Automobile Club map of 1905 indicates that the North Highway was a tertiary road at best.  Hardly seems likely it was THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY.

There were no automobiles even produced in America prior to 1893.

And that, believe it or not, commerce, travel and development existed on Long Island long before 1902.

How did golfers get to Shinnecock, if not by the North Highway ?  By train and then carriage up Tuckahoe Rd?

Why was the Shinnecock Inn sited on the North Highway ?  Maybe it was a pretty site?  Secluded?  Anticipating future development of the road?

According to Mike it was a cart path.  Why would you site a hotel on a cart path ?  See above.

Mike, Phil and others have chosen to ignore the realities of 1906, only four years after cars began being produced in large numbers in the U.S. 

Mike Cirba remains disengenuous, first claiming that the North Highway, which appeared in his posting of the 1907 Olmstead plan, didn't exist.  Then, he acknowledged its existance, then he backtracked and stated that it didn't exist in 1914, now he's stated that it existed, but, was a cart path.

The fact is that the North Highway was THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY on the North Shore of the South Fork.  When was it "THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY"?  1906?  1916?  Later?  How do you know?  What is the source for your following statement about evolutionary development and diminishment.  Over what time frame was that evolution?  Are you saying it was completely evolved by 1906?

The proof to that statement would be in the evolutionary development of the North Highway as THE MAIN EAST-WEST ARTERY east of the Shinnecock Canal, as contrasted with the diminishment of the South Highway as a major artery.

The fact that the North Highway paralleled the RR probably aided in its becoming THE Major East-West Artery.

Mike has no shame and will continue to misrepresent and lie, yes lie, in an attempt to promote his agenda.

Mike's posted the maps, schematics and google earth aerials of the area, not me and not David.
The North Highway ran right smack down the middle of the golf course he insisted was CBM's.

Others, (not you David) are content to let him misrepresent and lie, without so much as the slightest admonition.
I guess it's the age we live in.

[Bryan Izatt]

For further debate, the property in question below could be interpreted to fall inside the purple line.  The purple star is the location of the Shinnecock Inn.

[Mike Cirba]

David, Mike, Wayno, TEPaul, Joe, Steve, et. al.

In 1904-1906 who owned the land shaded in black in my post above ?

Patrick,

Good to see with this question that you're finally realizing that there is little chance that those October 1906 articles David posted was speaking about the Sebonac Neck property of today's NGLA golf course.

Frankly, you should be doing jumping-jacks and rejoicing.

That would have stretched out the timeline for studying and routing and planning the course another two months, at minimum.  

Factor in the maps sent to foreign experts abroad and waiting for their collective replies and pretty soon you have....heavens forbid!...a collaboration!  

So you should be thrilled, frankly, that I've taken the time to prove that there is no way that Shinnecock Hills could have been EAST of the property in 1906, since the entire golf course was SOUTH of ALL of Sebonac Neck, and ALL of the land CBM eventually bought for NGLA.

Now, you can just go back to arguing that CBM routed the course over unsurveyed land on horseback in 2 days and that all of those December 1906 news articles were either lying or wrong when they quoted CBM saying he'd spend the next several months working with his committee determining which holes to reproduce and their yardages.

You should be thanking me, and wondering why someone who has studied Shinnecock's evolution didn't point that out to you sooner.


Patrick...by the way...do you even READ what I write?

Please show me where I EVER said that NGLA was located within the yellow rectangle I drew on the map above.

I know where NGLA is located, Pat.   

What I said and now believe more than ever is that the October articles referred to a different piece of property that CBM was interested in prior to his Sebonac Neck purchase.   I believe the descriptiion of the location, especially since we now KNOW the dimensions of Shinnecock HIlls at the time, places it roughly within that rectangle.

News reports of the time mentioned that CBM was looking at "Various Settings" around Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Hills.

I believe this was one of them.    I know it's not NGLA nor would I ever have said such a stupid thing.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Thanks for your updates on the roads and for providing some unbiased input here.

As regards your last post, I believe that this is the article you wanted to post...not the subsequent one from November 1st, 1906.




I would disagree slightly with your drawing of the purple lines on two counts.

NGLA never owned, and CBM never purchased, land beyond today's 9th green extending down to the Shinnecock Inn.   Further, land that far south was NEVER known as part of Sebonac Neck if we believe David's original argument that the author was simply describing the large land mass of Sebonac Neck.

THe southern boundary of CBM's purchase was north of ALL of Shinnecock Hills GC, not just the portion on the peninsula to the west.

It wasn't until a month later in mid-November 1906 that it was reported that an Inn would be built.   When that was determined is unclear, but assuming that CBM already knew it was in the works it would have been only natural for him to have closely examined the land I've drawn, especially since it was surveyed prior and clearly more evolved than the unexplored land up to the northeast.

Also, the article mentions that the land CBM purchased skirted the LIRR to the south...your southern boundary is still probably a good .15 mile away, but we're likely within range of reasonability there.

Also, the article says that property "stretches along Peconic Bay to the north", which I don't see as necessarily adjacent.   The rectangle map as I drew does stretch along Peconic Bay to the north, in fact, particularly as Cold Spring Bay is serviced directly from the larger bay.

Further, it locates the western point as "near" the inlet between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station, which means it could have extended directly on the shores of Peconic Bay for a bit at it's furthermost point, exactly as today's course does.  I don't read the article to mean that it ended precisely at the inlet, as you have drawn, and believe that CBM would have certainly wanted to stretch it out along as much of Peconic Bay as his routing permitted, given a fixed start/end point (Shinnecock Inn), much like he did at Sebonac Neck.

Finally, the larger article makes clear that it's decribing the specific land CBM is supposedly going to purchase, and that land is described as 250 acres.   Please read the first paragraph of this one, for instance.



It is very, very unlikely that the article was talking about a land mass as big as drawn.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Your theory makes some sense geographically, in that I imagine CBM would have looked all the way around the Cold Springs bay for his ideal course site, and one near the proposed Shinnecock Inn, but probably got directed to the area not yet land planned, at least eventually.  That inlet may have been perfect for the Biarritz and/or Cape!

But wasn't the first offer by the canal made before he left for Europe, and just a few weeks after the Realty Co acquired the land in 1905?  I am just not sure somewhere within your yellow parcel wasn't the first offer, and that when he returned, perhaps he already knew he would have to go to the Neck area.

Just a guess.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Who created this map ?

In looking at it, it's clear that CBM's account in Scotland's gift is correct.
That the land he wanted for NGLA adjoined Shinnecock Hills.

He stated that his 1st tee was 200 yards from the Shinnecock Inn, placing Shinnecock's Golf Course directly to his East.
We also know that the 9th green is even closer to the Shinnecock Inn.

The property line in 1916 remains as it is today with Shinnecock Hills adjoining NGLA along the old 1st hole and further

Hence, it appears that CBM's account on page 187 is accurate, despite Mike Cirba's decree that it wasn't.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As usual, not wanting to be counted amongst the morons, but ...........

Bryan, you know what they say about the shoe fitting .....[/b]

David Moriarty,

Would you tell all of the morons debating the use of the North Highway, and Mike Cirba who stated that it didn't exist in 1914, let alone 1906, that the automobile in America only went into large scale production in 1902.  

So, how many cars do you suppose there were in America in 1906?  

Not many

How many in NYC and LI? How many paved roads to accommodate them?

Not many  

In 1906, many of the streets in NYC were still cobblestone and the major mode of transportation was train and horse and carriage.  
But, then maybe cars and paved roads came earlier to the Shinnecock Hills than they did to NYC.  

Or maybe, as you and Mike would have us believe, there was no civilization East of the Shinnecock Canal.
No roads, no residences, no businesses, just a recent railroad, Shinnecock Hills Golf Course, the Shinnecock Inn and a railroad station for the golf course.

The Automobile Club map of 1905 indicates that the North Highway was a tertiary road at best.  


Seems like it was the ONLY East-West Road on the North Shore of the South Fork.

How does the North Highway appear in your 1916 map ?

Hardly seems likely it was THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY.

Really ?  How's it look in the 1916 map you posted ?  THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY ?
That road was the only East-West road on the North Shore of the South Fork.[/b]

There were no automobiles even produced in America prior to 1893.

And that, believe it or not, commerce, travel and development existed on Long Island long before 1902.

How did golfers get to Shinnecock, if not by the North Highway ?  By train and then carriage up Tuckahoe Rd?

Tell us, how did the carriages get out to Shinnecock ?
Were they airlifted ?
Or, did they get there vis a vis, the North Highway.

Why was the Shinnecock Inn sited on the North Highway ?  
Maybe it was a pretty site?  Secluded?  Anticipating future development of the road?


Bryan, I could expect that reply from Mike, but you ?
You know why the Shinnecock Inn was sited there.  
Because that location was on the main thoroughfare on the North Shore of the South Fork.

According to Mike it was a cart path.  Why would you site a hotel on a cart path ?  See above.

Ditto

Mike, Phil and others have chosen to ignore the realities of 1906, only four years after cars began being produced in large numbers in the U.S.  

Mike Cirba remains disengenuous, first claiming that the North Highway, which appeared in his posting of the 1907 Olmstead plan, didn't exist.  Then, he acknowledged its existance, then he backtracked and stated that it didn't exist in 1914, now he's stated that it existed, but, was a cart path.

The fact is that the North Highway was THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY on the North Shore of the South Fork.  When was it "THE

MAJOR EAST-WEST ARTERY"?  1906?  1916?  Later?  How do you know?  What is the source for your following statement about evolutionary development and diminishment.  Over what time frame was that evolution?  Are you saying it was completely evolved by 1906?

It was a major artery in 1906, 1916 and today.
One of the proofs is in the 1916 map you posted.
Another in the 1907 Olmstead map.
Another is the siting of the Shinnecock Inn.
Another is the siting of Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.
Another is the siting of the Railroad Station on the North Highway.

You don't site those items in an unaccessable, remote area.

The proof to that statement would be in the evolutionary development of the North Highway as THE MAIN EAST-WEST ARTERY east of the Shinnecock Canal, as contrasted with the diminishment of the South Highway as a major artery.

The fact that the North Highway paralleled the RR probably aided in its becoming THE Major East-West Artery.

Mike has no shame and will continue to misrepresent and lie, yes lie, in an attempt to promote his agenda.

Mike's posted the maps, schematics and google earth aerials of the area, not me and not David.
The North Highway ran right smack down the middle of the golf course he insisted was CBM's.

Others, (not you David) are content to let him misrepresent and lie, without so much as the slightest admonition.
I guess it's the age we live in.

[Andy Hughes]

There was a Shinnecock Inn in the 1890s--is this a different inn then the one we keep talking about?

Finally, the larger article makes clear that it's decribing the specific land CBM is supposedly going to purchase, and that land is described as 250 acres.

Actually Mike, the article makes clear that CBM had ALREADY purchased those 250 acres.  I really question how literally everyone should take these articles...

[Jeff_Brauer]

If you read the snippet that Phil posted, the decision on the RR overhead crossings was delayed because they were not sure that it was even a public road.  It was called Cherry Tree Road, and the state called it the north highway.  The state had to confirm that they were willing to take it over before the board would rule it needed to be made into an overhead crossing.  In other words, they were planning ahead, which has never been uncommon.  As we saw in a post above, that highway as Pat knows it didn't actually get built until 1933.

It seems as if the Realty company planned it, maybe even graded the dirt road, and then tried to get the state of NY to build and maintain it, which is pretty typical for developers and states, especially when an area is set for growth in the near future, as LI was back then.

But, its pretty clear from Pat's questions this morning that he rarely reads others posts on this thread before offering his opinions. I am just a casual reader, and I have seen the answers to his questions asked, and picked up on most of the things he seems intent on ignoring.

I also note that those dirt roads up in Sebonack Neck shown in 1905 pre NGLA are gone in the 1916 map, demonstrating that they weren't hard to remove, if a higher and better land use came up.  Whatever Patrick thinks those dashed lines on the 1905 map show, its clear that those roads DID NOT have an affect on the layout of NGLA.

Lastly, Patrick seems to be having some time compression issues.  Routing in a day, highways just four years after mass production of the Model T, etc.

OT, but I recall a grade school teacher making the point that development of the road system was slow, and even held back the number of autos for a while.  I recall this because it was the only time I got sent to the principal's office. When he asked what held up mass production of the auto, I raised my hand and replied "no parking lots" which in combination with some other silly comments  I had made, was all he needed to hear from me that day......

[JESII]

Mike,

It's interesting to me that the directional description the author of that snippet wrote is what put you over the top in completely ignoring its credibility.

The two sites were undenialby Northwest and Southeast of each other by any reasonable standard and the fact that the author implied directly East-West is almost irrelevant. He said 250 acres. If we were to take each word literally, that alone would discount the story.

In addition, attempting to put a strict mileage definition on the words "skirted", "adjoined", and "near" makes the entire exercise fruitless.



Lets focus on the word "secured".

You may dismiss it as a negotiating ploy by Macdonald, I'd like to give him more credit than that. In your opinion, is there any possibility it was something other than a negotiating ploy?

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff/Andy,

The precise date of CBM's other offer that got rejected he references in Scotland's Gift is unknown, and I've not been able to find any hint of it in newspapers.

In his book, he wrote;

Shinnecock Hills also was very attractive. but I preferred not
getting too close to the Shinnecoek Hills Golf Course. The Shinnecock
Hills property, some 2,000 acres, had been owned by a
London syndicate and was sold at about $50 an acre to a Brooklyn
company a few weeks before I determined that we should build
a course there if we could secure the land.

I offered the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Company $200 per acre for some
120 acres near the canal connecting Shinnccock Bay with the Great
Peconic Bay, but the owners refused it.

However, there happened to be some 450 acres of land on Sebonac
Neck, having a mile frontage on Peconic Day and lying
between Cold Spring Harbor and Bull's Head Bay. This property
was little known and had never been surveyed. Everyone
thought it more or less worthless. It abounded in bogs :md swamps...etc..


So, in re-reading this I'm not sure we can exactly determine WHEN CBM made the first offer.   It seems he decided that he should build a course "there", which I think refers to somewhere on the 2,000+ acres within a few weeks after the initial purchase in late 1905.

But, it sounds as though he made his two offers closer together contiguously, probably after his return from many months in Europe in 1906.  

He almost makes the Sebonac Neck property sound like the consolation prize, or at least not his first choice.

I think he made both offers in 1906...I think he simply decided that his course was somewhere in those 2700 acres in 1905.

What do you think?


Jim,

I do think it's possibly credible.   I'm beginning to think it was the first offer.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Who created this map ?

In looking at it, it's clear that CBM's account in Scotland's gift is correct.
That the land he wanted for NGLA adjoined Shinnecock Hills.

He stated that his 1st tee was 200 yards from the Shinnecock Inn, placing Shinnecock's Golf Course directly to his East.
We also know that the 9th green is even closer to the Shinnecock Inn.

The property line in 1916 remains as it is today with Shinnecock Hills adjoining NGLA along the old 1st hole and further

Hence, it appears that CBM's account on page 187 is accurate, despite Mike Cirba's decree that it wasn't.




Patrick,

You're starting to worry me.  

The Shinnecock course in 1916 was not the same as the Shinnecock course in 1906, particularly along its northern boundary.   If you want me to prove that to you I will, as well.

Where does CBM say that the Shinnecock Inn is "200 yard" from his first tee?   I may have missed that, but it is irrespective of the point, truly.

ALL of the land of the Shinnecock Golf Club was south of ALL of the land of NGLA in 1906 when the property was secured/purchased.

Shinnecock GC did "adjoin" the land CBM secured/purchased for NGLA.   It adjoined it to the SOUTH.

It would have been IMPOSSIBLE to adjoin to its EAST as all of the course was south of the NGLA property.

And you know, Pat...the funny thing here is that you're so used to arguing with everything I say that you don't even realize when you're arguing against your own main point...that CBM routed the course in 2 days on horseback.

Suddenly, because David posted an article and not me, you have no problem with it.

Suddenly, it no longer matters if the land was surveyed or not before it was secured, and it doesn't matter if maps were sent to foreign experts, and it no longer matters that it says 250 acres, and it no longer matters that the purchase described is far from today's NGLA course...

And it no longer matters that this stretches out the planning, routing period for another 2+ months...

You're so focused on this supposed Merion thing and arguing with everything I write between personally insulting me that you've lost complete touch here.

Bryan,

What's the N/S orientation on that map?   Thanks again.

[JESII]

In his book, he wrote;

I offered the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Company $200 per acre for some
120 acres near the canal connecting Shinnccock Bay with the Great
Peconic Bay, but the owners refused it.




Jim,

I do think it's possibly credible.   I'm beginning to think it was the first offer.

Mike,

The article uses the word "secured". CBM uses the term "the owners refusedit"...

Please help???

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I think CBM may have made some assumptions and spoke too soon is my presumption. 

It's speculative, of course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

MIke,

Too me, its possible. I don't think there is enough evidence for either you or David to conclusivly prove your points.  I hadn't considered the difference between decide to build there and offer on the land. By the time he wrote Scotland's Gift, he could tell it like it is, and  no need for deflection with the possible Montauk site, etc.

It does seem strange that he would make an offer, take a year to go to GBI, among other things, and then come back, so making both offers after his June 1906 return is certainly plausible to me.

[JESII]

Jim,

I think CBM may have made some assumptions and spoke too soon is my presumption. 

It's speculative, of course.

I guess what impresses me most is that you are willing to assume that of CBM (reckless of him) but not willing to take the article's location as a loose generality...especially when the author made no attempt to be specific.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Hang on a second...

I'm not assuming anything about CBM other than he was very good at using the press, and perhaps he was floating a trial balloon.

As far as the exact boundaries location, I'm not sure how that is less specific than what was reported in December, which was that CBM had secured some 205 "undetermined" acres between Cold Spring Bay, Bullshead Bay, and Peconic Bay.    THAT is pretty non-specific, as well.

Here, at least you have some fixed points....an eastern end adjoining Shinny, a southern end skirting the tracks, a western end out near the inlet, all stretching along Peconic Bay to the north.

If CBM had already determined that he wanted to use the coming Shinnecock Inn as a clubhouse, tell me why he would NOT have strongly considered that territory as a preference to going up into the uncharted territories to his northeast where he ended up?

I've posted the topo here...it looks pretty, pretty good to me.

[JESII]

So what do we know for certain, and what does the timeline of the reports suggest to fill in the blanks?

Sept 1905 – FACT – Dean Alvord’s company buys over 2000 acres around Shinnecock Hills and shortly thereafter the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Company is created to develop the land.

How is it CBM would confuse a couple of weeks with a full year?

[JESII]

Mike,

That last post wasn't meant as a response to your questions, it just took me a while to produce it so I posted it.

Let me look at yours

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