[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I understand completely.

But, why would you or Mike draw a distinction between the North Highway and the South Highway ?

The North Highway crossed what's now the LIRR.
Remnants of the North Highway, just North of the Sunrise Highway, East of the Shinnecock Canal exist today.

There was sufficient traffic on that roadway, the North Highway, circa 1906-1907, to create a safety hazard, thus prompting a relocation and reconfiguration of the crossing.

What you don't understand is that the North Highway was the MAJOR East-West road on the North shore of the South Fork, extending from the Shinnecock Canal to the Eastern end of LI .  It remains THE MAJOR East-West Road for the entire South Fork, East of the Shinnecock Canal.

But, this is irrelevant.

What's relevant is Mike's disengenuous, deliberate, declaration, wherein he stated that the North Highway didn't exist in 1914, when he knew it existed, vis a vis your reply # 360.

You can't get more dishonest than that.

Please don't sidetrack the issue by trying to dismiss THE MAJOR East-West thoroughfare on the North Shore of the South Fork , as a isolated deer path that connected New York City to Montauk, that just happened to accomodate a cars.  An accomodation that became a safety hazard due to traffic and an RR crossing.

Thanks

Mike's claim that the South Highway, today, County Road # 80, was the main thoroughfare, to the exclusion of the North Highway, is absurd.

I stand by all of my comments.

As to the North Highway not showing up on that 1914 rendering, why do you suppose that no other roads show up on that map ?
Were there NO ROADS on the entire East end of LI in 1914.

Mike's a big boy, let him speak for himself.

Out of curiosity, why would you build a train station where there were no roads to service it ?

[Mike Cirba]

Pat,

You've GOT to be flippin' kidding me!

You accuse me of being disengenous while looking at a Land Plan that has a freaking North Highway drawn right between Shinnecock and NGLA, about right behind today's 9th green at NGLA, and across the 2nd green at Shinnecock, and you tell me I'm being disengenous.

Please point out for us when and where that highway ever existed that ran through the golf courses.

For that matter you don't have any idea if what is drawn as the "North Highway" on that 1907 plan was actual or proposed, do you?

Yet, for pages you argued that CBM would never have selected the land below Cold Spring Bay because the North Highway ran through it.

At best, the "North Highway" was a dirt road, as Phil  mentioned.   The map I posted from 1914 was a HIGHWAY map, and YES, the only road deemed a HIGHWAY at that date was the one BELOW the LIRR.

Here you have a land developer who just bought 2700 freaking acres of property to develop, you have a consortium that CBM put together of millionaires and captains of industry in America who are looking to build a golf course playground retreat, and you are seriously and genuinely telling us that they're plans are hosed because of a freaking dirt road??!?!   They couldn't move it, or re-route it for a mile or so closer to the tracks perhaps?    All of their dreams and plans get washed down the drain because of that damn dirt-road that isn't even included on a map of highways on Long Island in 1914!  

And you tell me I'm being disengenous??

We have a self-professed expert on early Shinnecock on this thread, who for weeks now has been telling us that his October 1906 articles MUST have been talking about the land CBM found on Sebonac Neck, because it mentions that Shinnecock Golf Club borders adjacent on the East, even though the western border of the supposed 250 acre purchase is ONE AND A HALF MILES AWAY from today's NGLA western border.

Now, suddenly, it takes me to point out that NO PART OF 1906 SHINNECOCK EXTENDED NORTH ENOUGH TO EVEN REACH SEBONACK NECK OR ANY PART OF NGLA.



How then could it be predomoninatly EAST when ALL PARTS of the course lay SOUTH of ALL PARTS OF NGLA AND SEBONAC NECK?!?!

WHY DID IT TAKE ME TO DISCOVER THAT FACT and POST IT HERE??

It's sad Pat...you've lost all ability to be objective, balanced, and fair on this issue.

[Mike Cirba]

Can we now move onto a discussion of what land those October 15th, 1906 article were talking about, because it's clear there was NO highway in the way just south of Cold Spring Bay?

Pat...I'll not take offense because I really respect, like, and admire you a great deal, but I do hope out of common decency you'll think twice before calling me a liar here again.

[JESII]

Mike,

Again, I'm not nearly well enough read on this stuff but if that little newspaper snippet describing where CBM had found his land is all we have to go on at that time, regarding this exact purpose I don't understand how we can try to Google Map locate it. The article doesn't give a single measurement in relation to any of the landmarks you're measuring it from.

Guessing how far skirting and adjoining imply is a tough one...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

No one is looking for an exact Google Map location, but an approximate generality, which shouldn't be difficult.

If the southern boundary "skirts the Long Island Railroad"...

If the "eastern limits ADJOIN Shinnecock Hills Golf"...

If the "most western point is near the inlet between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station",

I'm not sure how others argue with absolute certainly that the "250 acres" in question reported to have been secured by CBM on October 15th, 1906 is the land of today's NGLA.

For starters, NONE of NGLA's property ADJOINED Shinnecock Hills GC to its East in 1906.

The west edge of NGLA is 1.5 MILES from the inlet.

The southernmost point of NGLA is .35 miles from the Long Island Railroad.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Good point. I never felt like those newspaper descriptions were doing anything other than generally locating the parcel for the readers with some known landmarks.

Mike,

Now the newest mystery is the 1905 map showing some dirt roads (dashed lines) up to what would become the NGLA clubhouse.....for that matter, those dirt roads criss cross the area coverd by the Ohlmstead plan, and obviously were changed at some point, although FLO may have used some of the paths, which were probably pretty logical, since they often followed old Indian trails and the like and were the easiest routes.

I wonder what was on those dirt roads that became the NGLA parcel?  Were there scattered houses (perhaps of native Indians?) on those roads when the Realty Co. bought the land?  Maybe NGLA got located to the eastern part of that property because those paths made it easier to survey than the western part, with no roads, and presumably more brush?

BTW, I can buy David's theory that the work started well before October and was more than a few pony rides.  If CBM and JW rode it several times, as reported, and then Travis and the rest of the committee saw the property before December, all that would fit the process descriptions and your time line.  I think we are wrong in thinking it was "only pony rides" as these things take longer than we think.

BWT, you note that the Olmstead plan appeared in April 1907.  Do you know if it was prepared earlier?  I ask because it shows roads stubbed out to the future Bayberry Estate/Sebonack.  These are usually shown to indicate future development, even if unplanned.  If prepared before the NGLA routing, it would be an indication that CBM was forced to the east side of the property available (assuming they rejected his earlier bid based on existing land planning ideas) but if just current to AFTER the CBM option, they may have drawn the roads AFTER CBM chose his land.

Lastly, like Phil, I wonder if there was any connection to the Dec. RR Xing ruling and CBM's option?  I am still trying to figure out why, if the routing was settled in October, he would feel the need to take an option (for protection should he need to back out for some unknown reason) in December.  I have postulated it was for time to finalize his corporation, gather fees, have Raynor survey, but maybe, get land and road issues sorted out would also be a good reason, other than the most obvious one - that he still hadn't finalized his routing.

Patrick,

I have stopped following this thread to a large degree because its too painful to see you guys argue to the degree you are.  Based on your name calling, I would gather that most readers would peg you as the most desparate party on here at this moment.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

I'll try to mock something up later, but I believe most of those indicated roads were on the Shinnecock GC side of things and did not extend up into today's NGLA land, with the exception of the one going out to Peconic Bay.

I also tend to agree with your other premises, with the only point I'd make is that there is no way at all to tell if those October 1906 articles were talking about today's NGLA land and lots of reason to assume they weren't.

Whether CBM was simply floating a story as a negotiating tactic is something I wouldn't be surprised about.

I just think people here who claim to speak with certainty on either the timing or the timeline or the time-involved of CBM's property acquistion and routing of the golf course are only fooling themselves.

[JESII]

Mike,

I'm happy to use, or not use any piece of collateral you all want to since I rarely make the effort to find any of it myself. But that little snippet clearly says CBM "secured" the area. Are we to assume he just made it up? Or is it a bit more realistic to think the exact location secured (by contract a couple months later) wasn't viewed by the writer either in person or on a map?

For what it's worth, that word "secured" could indicate the three step process I was talking about a few pages ago. CBM and HJW ride the land in the late summer and decide it's just what they want and get a handshake agreement to buy it. During the fall they look at it in more detail and agree on a price and take their option that was reported on in December.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Here's one of the original October 1906 articles.   I also have one from November 1st, 1906 that says he's down to two choices...one near Montauk and one in western Shinnecock Hills near Good Ground.   Be back later...

[JESII]

I apologize for asking this at this point, but how, or when, was this article discredited?

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

Only because I respect you that I'll give you an answer for your question, "Out of curiosity, why would you build a train station where there were no roads to service it ?"

They wouldn't. The problem with the question and answer is that neither takes into account the QUALITY, SIZE and TYPE of road that was servicing it. I'll try and locate the website that details exactly when ecery station on the different lines of the railways serving Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island were built. Off the top of my head the Shinnecock station was built in the very early 1880's, well BEFORE there were any automobiles. the roadway system in the first decade of the 20th century on the Eastern end of Long Island was mostl;y built BEFORE there were automobiles out there which is why the "North Highway" was a DIRT road and not the major thoroughfare you are convinced existed.

Once again, the Senate report of 1906 is germane because it refers to the very POOR quality of the roads with MOST of them being dirt roads. The need for better crossings went part and parcel with the need for better roads including the "North Highway" which in 1906 was NOT a MAJOR thoroughfare as you keep portraying it. It might have been the major LOCAL thoroughfare, yet all that does is help one to realize just how quaint and not built up that portion of the Island was during those years.

Again, the only import of these facts on the NGLA question has to do with two questions. WHY did CBM look at that section for his course? Why did he end up NOT building the course there?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

I think you are right that the original Shinny station dates to the creation of the golf course, maybe earlier, and golfers probably took a horse carriage to the clubhouse.  I think Peconic agreed to move it to better serve the Inn and two golf courses, most likely at the chagrin of Shinny, who had their private station.

BTW, the mention of the maps being made in the Oct article strikes me as those GBI hole topos that CBM had drawn up, not a survey of the exact property at the Neck.

[JESII]

I don't know Jeff, the paragraph begins..."Maps showing all the undulations and grades in feet have been executed".

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think he would mail his concept and template holes to his experts for reviews as to which to include, no?  Not sure they could all read a topo, or that he even had one at that point.  However, its just my reading of it and as always, I could be wrong.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I think the major thing to consider is that these articles from October 1910 do not jive with what is reported in the days after CBM secured the land two months later in December 1906, nor do they jive with what we know factually to be true.

For instance, in the article I just posted.

CBM actually paid $40,000 for the 205 acres, not $100,000 as is reported here.

CBM actually secured and later purchased 205 acres, not 250 acres as is reported there.

The supposed general description of the 250 acres if read literally is well south and west of today's course.   If read to simply be a general description, it includes well over 1,000 acres.

CBM thanks many of the expert golfers abroad in his book for their help with providing him maps and other info related to the ideal holes.   If he sent each of them a copy of a topo to elicit their suggestions prior to October 1906 then I find it surprising that the boundaries of the course is still "undetermined" and the holes to be reproduced and their yardages was still largely unknown 2 months later, at which time CBM is quoted as saying that would happen over the  next several months.   I mean, I know I've argued that the guy was meticulous, but...

Add to this that it was reported 2 weeks later that CBM was down to two sites; one near Montauk and one in western Shinnecock near Good Ground, and I think that anyone who can tell us they know what happened and when is...a charl...er...char...

Is Charles B. Macdonald, and I think he did tell us in those December articles, as well as in his book.    

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

That December article mentions that the land purchased is as previously reported.  I don't know why or how the word leaked out before Charlie wanted it to, but that is how I read the Oct. article.  Maybe he floated the Montauk idea after the Peconic Co saw the October article, just for negotiating power?

There is always the possibilities in these real estate deals of some kind of hiccup.  This all suggests he was close in October, but then something happened, and it took until December.  Still don't understand the option, unless some things were up in the air still.

BTW, I take the $100K to be his total budget, and it doesn't say that is the purchase price. 

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

I think that's all very possible.

Even so, the total money he had raised for the project was still $1000 per Founder, with 60 Founders, so that article is wrong in that respect.

I also wonder if the writer wasn't covering their butt a little bit in saying it's the land previously reported because the descriptions of the location as well as the details are quite different.

[DMoriarty]

Mike is trying to circle the conversation back to ground already well covered so as to avoid answering a few straightforward questions.  His convoluted theories about these October articles or a mysterious third parcel didn't make any sense the last time we discussed them and they make even less sense now.   I'll not bother to respond and of Mike's misrepresentations of my position and of the record, so as to avoid derailing the conversation.

Let's just say that I agree with Jim Sullivan and Jeff Brauer that the description in the articles was a general location and that it refers to the Sebonack Neck property.  That is unlikely to change no matter how many times Mike scribbles on the aerials.  

Mike,    please answer my questions.  I have plenty, but let's start with the ones you recently described as "beyond stupid and insulting."  The last one isn't even about these October articles, so you will need to come up with a different song and dance to avoid answering that one.

1.  If all CBM and HJW had done before optioning the property was ride it for a few days, then why was it reported that they were well into the project by mid-October?

2.  And why was it reported that they already had maps of the property?

3.  And (assuming you'll claim that these articles referred to the horseback rides) why don't you think they did anything at all between for two months after this?  

4.  And if all CBM and HJW had done before optioning the property was ride it for a few days, then why was it reported that Travis, Emmett, Watson, and Chauncey, and others had all been over the land before CBM took an option?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You've GOT to be flippin' kidding me!

NO, I"m not.
You're not being disengenuous, you're outright lying.
You know the North Highway existed, the 1907-06 New York State Senate documents acknowledge its existance, you acknowledged knowing that in your reply # 361, yet, in spite of that prior knowledge, you blatantly lied by stating that the North Highway didn't even exist in 1914.

You can't get more dishonest than that.[/b]

You accuse me of being disengenous while looking at a Land Plan that has a freaking North Highway drawn right between Shinnecock and NGLA, about right behind today's 9th green at NGLA, and across the 2nd green at Shinnecock, and you tell me I'm being disengenous.

Yep, you're dishonest.
The North Highway went right behind today's 9th green at NGLA in 1907 and it goes right behind the 9th green at NGLA today.
Not much has changed.
They sited the Shinnecock Inn on the North Highway, just 200 yards from the old 1st tee at NGLA.

Please point out for us when and where that highway ever existed that ran through the golf courses.


It went behind the current 9th green in 1907 and remains there today.[/b]

For that matter you don't have any idea if what is drawn as the "North Highway" on that 1907 plan was actual or proposed, do you?

You're wrong again.
The North Highway was actual, not proposed.[/b]

Yet, for pages you argued that CBM would never have selected the land below Cold Spring Bay because the North Highway ran through it.

That's another LIE on your part.  I've come to accept that you're incapable of telling the truth.
What I stated was that CBM would never have selected the narrow strip of land that YOU originally declared, (and now have since changed your mind)
was the site of the golf course since the North highway didn't just cross it, but, ran right smack down the entire middle of your phantom, ridiculous site for the golf course.[/b]

At best, the "North Highway" was a dirt road, as Phil  mentioned.  

Horseshit.
The North Highway was THE MAJOR EAST-WEST ROAD ON THE NORTH SHORE OF THE SOUTH FORK.

It was such a major road in 1906-7, that the New York State Senate had to act to change the location and configuration of it's crossing the Railroad tracks because the traffic on that road was at risk, a serious safety risk from train traffic.[/b]

The map I posted from 1914 was a HIGHWAY map, and YES, the only road deemed a HIGHWAY at that date was the one BELOW the LIRR.
How can you LIE about these things ?  How can you be so disengenuous, so untrust worthy ?
You're telling us it wasn't a highway in 1914, yet, in 1906-07
The New York State Senate DECLARED THE NORTH HIGHWAY A HIGHWAY.

Don't you have any scrupples, any ethics ?
[/b]

Here you have a land developer who just bought 2700 freaking acres of property to develop, you have a consortium that CBM put together of millionaires and captains of industry in America who are looking to build a golf course playground retreat, and you are seriously and genuinely telling us that they're plans are hosed because of a freaking dirt road??!?!  

No, that's not what I'm telling you.
I'm telling you that NO ONE in their right mind would consider the parcel of land that you insisted was the long, narrow track south of cold spring harbor, with a highway, the major highway on the north shore of the South Fork, running all the way through it.

The North Highway was there first, that's how people traveled to the East End and Sag Harbor.

But, you bring up something of interest.

Do you think, that the consortium that CBM put together, millionairres and captains of industry, would buy 60-70- 90 1 acre to 1.5 acre lots scrunched together ?  Not in a million years.   One of the early members, Sabin, bought the balance of Sebonack Neck, approximately 245 acres.
Yet, you've continued with your insistance that NGLA was going to have 60+ lots available to those millionairres and captains of industry.
They wouldn't be caught dead on those lots.

They couldn't move it, or re-route it for a mile or so closer to the tracks perhaps?  

Another wild speculation absent any supporting documentation.
Please, heed Shakespeare's words in Hamlet I, iii.[/b

All of their dreams and plans get washed down the drain because of that damn dirt-road that isn't even included on a map of highways on Long Island in 1914!

You know the North Highway was there.
The 1906-07 New York State Senate documents prove it was there
The 1914 map you posted doesn't show one other road on the entire South Fork of the East End of Long Island.
Is there no limit to your dishonesty ??
Don't you have any pride in your reputation as a man of principle, of character ?  [/b]

And you tell me I'm being disengenous??

You're God Damn right I am ![/b]

We have a self-professed expert on early Shinnecock on this thread, who for weeks now has been telling us that his October 1906 articles MUST have been talking about the land CBM found on Sebonac Neck, because it mentions that Shinnecock Golf Club borders adjacent on the East, even though the western border of the supposed 250 acre purchase is ONE AND A HALF MILES AWAY from today's NGLA western border.


Don't try to divert my response to the blatant lie you posted by shifting the topic to third parties.[/b]

Now, suddenly, it takes me to point out that NO PART OF 1906 SHINNECOCK EXTENDED NORTH ENOUGH TO EVEN REACH SEBONACK NECK OR ANY PART OF NGLA.

I think you're confusing Shinnecock's property lines with the Shinnecock golf holes in existance at the time.
Macdonald wrote, rather clearly, that the Sebonack Neck property he wanted ADJOINED Shinnecock.[/b].



How then could it be predomoninatly EAST when ALL PARTS of the course lay SOUTH of ALL PARTS OF NGLA AND SEBONAC NECK?!?!

Because NGLA's land, adjoined Shinnecock's LAND, not its golf holes.
No one, repeat, no one maintained that the Sebonack Neck parcel that CBM wanted, adjoined golf holes at Shinnecock, only that the property CBM wanted, adjoined the property at Shinnecock.[/b]

WHY DID IT TAKE ME TO DISCOVER THAT FACT and POST IT HERE??

I doubt that YOU made that discovery.  I've seen the recent emails from TEPaul and others.
But, again, I think you're confusing the golf holes in 1906-07 with the property lines in 1906-07[/b]

It's sad Pat...you've lost all ability to be objective, balanced, and fair on this issue.

I think I've been extremely objective, balanced and fair.
I have no agenda.  Oh, that's right, you declared that my agenda was to support my advocating dictatorships as the best form of club governance.
You have an agenda.  You stated it.  To prove that CBM couldn't have routed NGLA in short order.
You haven't searched for the truth, rather you've searched, desperately, to find anything to cling to to support your agenda.

But, worse, you've lied, blatantly lied and misrepresented, all to promote your agenda.

I can assure you, as much as I love NGLA, I'm not about to lose my reputation, principles and character over the advocacy of any position.
[/b]
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

You should also know that the location of the Shinnecock Inn in your graphic is NOT the location of the Shinnecock Inn that was located 200 yards from the old 1st tee at NGLA.

I believe that the Shinnecock Inn was moved, to the North Highway.

But, you knew that, didn't you ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can we now move onto a discussion of what land those October 15th, 1906 article were talking about, because it's clear there was NO highway in the way just south of Cold Spring Bay?

It's not clear and you'd have to be blind to make that statement.

The North Highway runs just north and parallel to the Railroad Tracks.
Are you sure that map is accurate ?
We know how far the railroad tracks are from the Shinnecock Inn, Shinnecock and NGLA, yet, in the map you've presented, the RR tracks appear well south of their location.

Pat...I'll not take offense because I really respect, like, and admire you a great deal, but I do hope out of common decency you'll think twice before calling me a liar here again.

Mike, I have to call it as I see it.
You declared that in 1914 the North Highway wasn't there.
Yet, you KNEW it was there in 1906-07.
That's lying.

Even your 1905 Suffolk County map shows the road, a road you insisted, didn't exist.




The North Highway is clearly illustrated, running parallel and North of the Railroad tracks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the 1905 map below is accurate than the original 5th hole at NGLA could never be a "Cape" hole over the water.



We were told that the original 5th, which appears as a schematic on page 123 of George Bahto's book, "The Evangelist of Golf" had no road intervening between the tee and green, and that after the course was built, the green had to be moved to the left, to accomodate the access road to the club's new front entrance after the Shinnecock Inn burned down.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

THese were sandy, DIRT roads, no more than cart paths.

You're in serious denial, and your supposed North "Highway" is also a dirt road here, and NOT in the location you claimed it was when you said CBM would not have tried to buy land south of Cold Spring Lake because the North Highway was there.

David,

Your first three questions assume the October 1906 articles were accurate and speaking about the Sebonic Neck property and I've already told you I don't believe either to be the case, so they are moot.

As far as your last question, is it really that hard to fathom that CBM and Whigham would have invitied a few of their closest friends over to view the property before deciding that they wanted to option it?   Wow...that must have been an incredible, time-consuming challenge for them!

As I said prior, the question is both stupid and insulting.

Besides, your argument is with CBM, not me.   HE is the one who wrote that he and Whigham decided to option the property based on the 2-3 day horseback ride.

YOU and Patrick are the ones who keep telling us it's ALL in Scotland's Gift, in those 2 or 3 paragraphs that encapsulate years of activity, so I don't know why you're arguing with me.

Tell HIM!   

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Is there a reason why SOME of the roads on the map that Patrick posted are drawn with dashed lines while others are drawn with solid lines? I wonder if Patrick can shed some light on that especially as one of the "dashed-line" roads is the "North Highway." I would expect that there is a legend in the publication from which it was taken that explains the different line types used and what that means about the roads.

Interestingly, the "South Highway" is drawn with SOLID lines...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

Perhaps you can tell us how people accessed the North Shore of the South Fork before 1906 ?

How did they get to Sag Harbor before 1906?

How did they get to Shinnecock Hills to play golf before 1906 ?

How did they get to the Shinnecock Inn before 1906 ?

Hint:  It's called the "North Highway"

If it was such a little used dirt road, as you maintained, remember, Mike Cirba denied its existance in 1914, then why did it take the New York State Senate to reroute the highway ?
Why couldn't the locals, the town or a few concerned citizens just move this little used, barely a dirt road, deer path ?
If it was just a little bitty dirt road, hardly used, as you would have us believe, how could it present a safety hazard to the cars crossing the railroad tracks in 1906 ?

But, no, the highway was such a significant artery that it had to be moved by nothing less than an official act of the New York State Senate.

That tells you all you need to know.

We also know from Mike's disengenuous comments when he posted his 1914 map and denied the very existance of the North Highway,claiming that it didn't exist because it wasn't on the map, a map that didn't show one additional road in the entirey of the East end of the South Fork in 1914, that a map does not a fact make.

I'd like to take you at your word, but, any man who claims that the best way to play the 3rd hole at Baltusrol Lower, is with a fade off the tee, can't be taken too seriously, as there's obviously a disconnect between theory and reality that he doesn't grasp (;

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