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Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #600 on: March 03, 2011, 08:19:30 AM »
Mike,

Starting at # 1, skirting SHGC, going to # 4 (eden), # 5 (Cape), # 8 (leven) all along Bulls Head Bay, then up on # 9 along Peconic Bay, the front nine was established on the first ride.  CBM and contemporaneous accounts you posted confirm this.

Now, he has to get back to the 18th tee.

But, he has to do so by going through the 12th (Alps) and 13th (Redan) holes.

The puzzle is completing itself.

Now, he has to get from # 14 tee to # 18 tee.

But, he has his 16th (road) and 17th (bottle) holes.

So, now he just has to get from the 14th tee to the 16th tee.

And, he has nowhere to go on # 14 but directly south, toward the 16th hole.

Max Behr was right, once the Eastern and Northern Boundary was established on the first ride, and the Starting and finishing points established at the Shinnecock Inn, along with the moment he found the Alps and the Redan, the routing of the returning nine was simply a default process, not something that needed to be analyzed for weeks or months.
 
You just can't let go of the notion that the course routed itself because that undermines your Merion issue/s

Look at the aerial.
Study the aerial.
Fill in the Eastern border, fill in his ideal/classic holes along with the dual starting and finishing points and you'll see that the routing of the course was predetermined by the Southern, Eastern  and Northern boundaries in conjunction with the long narrow nature of the land.

Jim Nugent

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #601 on: March 03, 2011, 09:45:35 AM »
A question for the architects.  Have you ever ridden over new land you had never seen before, that was heavily covered with bushes and undergrowth, that consisted of 450 or so acres, and routed a course there -- all in two or three days?

A question for anyone:  in Scotland's Gift, CBM first says he did not want to get too close to Shinnecock Hills Golf Course.  A few paragraphs later, he says he found land adjoining Shinnecock Hills Golf Course that would work well for the course.  This is the land he ended up buying and building NGLA on.  Did he change his mind about being close to Shinnie, or is he talking about two different things?   




Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #602 on: March 03, 2011, 10:05:24 AM »
Pat/Jim,

In 906 those Shinny holes adjacent to NGLA were not there, were not owned by Shinny, and were part of the 450 acre parcel that CBM was considering for purchase.

Jim,

I'd eat my hat if that ever actually happened, anywhere.  Its a myth.p

Andy Hughes

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #603 on: March 03, 2011, 10:06:50 AM »
Was the Shinnecock Inn built where it was built because CBM wanted it there and that was the agreement? Or was it built there because of the railroad, and CBM had to make do with that spot? Or something else?

Pat, did CBM actually have 18 specific holes he wanted to build regardless of the site? Or did he have a smaller collection of holes he wanted to build (i.e. templates such as the Redan) and some other more general concepts he wished to incorporate into holes?

Was the Cape hole actually an original or a copy of a hole like the 1st at Machrihanish?  If it was an original, did he already have the concept thought out or did he see the pond up in the corner and have a Eureka! moment?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #604 on: March 03, 2011, 10:10:49 AM »
Jim,

Actually, its a myth made up entirely by Pat on this thread.

CBM never said it...contemporaneous accounts never said it...in fact they both say quite the opposite.

Pat just wants to believe CB was superhuman, and wants to promote his one-day-wonder Merion agenda, even tho there is proof to the contrary for that myth as well.

Niall C

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #605 on: March 03, 2011, 10:38:40 AM »
Jim,

Actually, its a myth made up entirely by Pat on this thread.

CBM never said it...contemporaneous accounts never said it...in fact they both say quite the opposite.

Pat just wants to believe CB was superhuman, and wants to promote his one-day-wonder Merion agenda, even tho there is proof to the contrary for that myth as well.

Mike

CBM routing a course in one day, be it at NGLA or Merion, may well be a myth but do you really think that its not possible to determine firstly the suitability of a piece of ground for 18 holes or select a piece of ground for 18 holes, and secondly working out a rough routing while doing so, all in one day ? I seem to recall MacKenzie doing that on one course and Braid and many others seemed to make a careers out of it. What makes you think that CBM was incapable ? Is it because NGLA was so famous and is acknowledged as a quality course, CBM was inexperienced or what ?

Niall

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #606 on: March 03, 2011, 11:01:17 AM »
Niall,


A few reasons, but mostly because CBM had 450 inpenetrable acres to traverse.



Most of the archies you mentined were working primarily with open linksland, for one thing.  But honestly, how many of those original one-day routings have stood the tests of time, greatness, and remain essentially unchanged 100 years later?

I do believe that CBM and Whigham found some nice natural features they could utilize as well as determined the general to be sitable overall for their needs during their ride, exactly as CBM told us in his book.

Niall C

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #607 on: March 03, 2011, 11:52:17 AM »
Mike,

Re CBM at NGLA, as I understand it he was on horseback which would make things easier in terms of getting around. It would also give him a better perspective for getting a lay of the land. Now I've not been to NGLA, so correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the features of the course aren't exactly subtle, the alps for instance. Certainly not the features that might determine a routing. Those sorts of large features would have been readily identifiable irrespective of the amount of scrub or brush that was on the ground. I'm not arguing that CBM did actually do it all in a day, I'm just suggesting its not the impossible feat you suggest.

With regards to other golden age courses I'll bet quite a few of them were designed with an original routing worked out quite quickly and quite early. I've got no specific examples either one way or another to quote but I doubt these golden age guys didn't get to design hundreds of courses by spending weeks and multiple visits to each site just to get a basic routing.

Niall

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #608 on: March 03, 2011, 12:05:37 PM »
Niall,

I'm not saying CBM couldn't do it but that he wouldn't do a one or two day routing.


NGLA was too important to him.

Also, he TELLS us he didn't do it, in both his book as well as contemporaneous news accounts.

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #609 on: March 03, 2011, 12:26:59 PM »
Mike,

Was the area really "inpenetrable"? Really?

More specifically, forget the one or two or three days, the argument is whether or not he knew exactly were he was going to go prior to taking the option for the land in November 1906. If he and Wigham did their work in October that gives them some period of time to sketch it out...if they did it in July it goves them substantially more time.

The real debate here is the structure of the option on the land. You're relying on the newspaper articles, without source I believe, to declare that the property lines were not identified and that CBM could have taken any 205 of the whole 450. I disagree that either side would like that informal of an agreement.

If that were the case, CBM has all the downside risk in that his interest in the site is largely driven by factors outside of his control that all presented themselves on this location:
Easy access to the Southampton Inn so he didn't need a clubhouse initially.
The presence of a handful of vital features to place his templates upon
Transportation infrastructure being built simultaneously

Why on earth would he agree to an open/loose option as you've described it at the risk of losing this location if Alvrod got a better offer? He's using the term "purchased". I don't think it was a handshake. If it was in paper I think they also identified what the asset was.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #610 on: March 03, 2011, 12:47:46 PM »
Jim,

CBM tells us on page 187 that the 450 acre tract was so covered with brambles and bushes that the only way he and Whigham could get around it was on ponies.

ALL of the articles are attributed, including a quote from CBM.

ALL of the answers to your questions can be found in the articles on page 1 and elsewhere.

I'm not sure how many times I can post them if people aren't going to read them.

CBM TELLS US that the property lines were undetermined, and open to his needs.   He tells us in Scotland's Gift, and he tell us in the December 15th news article.

Here again is what he said THEN;




Here's what he said 20 years later;

That's why I said the "Agreement" CBM talks about in his book on page 187 is the exact same thing as "securing" the land later on that page, and happened in December, per these articles;





I just thnk you can't get over the fact that someone would buy 205 acres without a routing.   However, I would contend that we should believe CBM as he was quoted contemporaneously, and what he wrote 20 years later.

He simply bought enough property that he knew he could get or shape 18 good holes in there based on his initial surveys, and belieinvg he'd actually need much less of that land for the golf course at that time.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 12:52:28 PM by MCirba »

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #611 on: March 03, 2011, 12:50:01 PM »
Mike,

I questioned your use of inpenetrable because clearly they penetrated it, that's all.


Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #612 on: March 03, 2011, 12:53:59 PM »
Jim,

If they only way they could get over the ground was on ponies, doesn't it beg a lot of questions about how they could survey or route the course?

Do you see the direct quotes above and their timing specific to the "agreement" to secure the land on undetermined borders?

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #613 on: March 03, 2011, 12:58:59 PM »
Sure.

Do you think Alvrod paid the clearing expense in hopes of these guys coming back in to have their closer look to see if they wanted to buy it?

Seems alot of expense without knowing what was going to come of it...considering the land was deemed "worthless".

When do you think it was cleared in comparison to the November option agreement?

Actually, do you think there even was a formal option agreement? I agree that the option can easily carry an ammendment to allow moving boundaries. As Pat says, it's going to identify a specific plot, but the ammendment will allow flexibility. But for their to be a formal option (with or without a flexibility ammendment) the land would need to be surveyed, don't you think?

That's really the crux of our issue, the technicalities dictate the timeline as opposed to the other way around.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #614 on: March 03, 2011, 01:24:20 PM »
Jim,

Unlike others here, I don't pretend to know the answers to those questions.  ;)  

But, I do agree that they are very germane and could be illustrative and enlightening if we did.

For instance, would CBM really route a golf course on land he couldn't get across except on horseback?   I mean, seriously...how the hell would you see any ground contours less than say four feet  high or low?

You've seen plant growth near swampy areas...some of the reeds go up way over your head.    How about the kind of thick, prickly berry bushes that grow to 4-5 feet tall in the wild?  

Pat would have use believe that someone just swiped these away in a day or two but it sounds like he had 450 acres of this stuff to deal with.   WHat was he going to clear it with, bulldozers?!  ;)  ;D

I'd love to know when Seth Raynor was brought on board to survey the site and create a topo map of the ground contours, for instance.

Andy Hughes

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #615 on: March 03, 2011, 01:32:58 PM »
"I just thnk you can't get over the fact that someone would buy 205 acres without a routing."

Mike, I think I have the same problem. Somehow it doesn't make sense--clearly CBM believed a top-flight course could be built with much less than 205 acres as he had just made an offer for 120 acres. So this 205 acres must have been intentional, no? It can't have been a randon number or the minimum he thought he would need. He made a similar comment to the Merion folks as well I recall.

I gather (but am not all clear on the details) he knew where the Shinnecock Inn was going to be so the start and end points apparently were decided by that.  So starting at the Inn, going to the Cape hole, 'skirting Bullshead Bay for about a mile' (by the way, does anyone find it odd that the newspaper article and CBM's book years later both talk about 'skirting Bullshead Bay'?), incorporating the Alps and Redan, getting back to the Inn.  While the specific details of the holes may have come later there doesn't seem to be much doubt about which chunk of land he wanted and that much of the 450 acres would have been excluded fairly quickly, no? Must have been a bit painful to have to pass up all that waterfront land though!
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #616 on: March 03, 2011, 01:44:33 PM »
There really is a strange language barrier here that carries over from one conversation to another.

I don't think CBM routed the course in the final detail you and Jeff say constitutes a "Routing". Period. Just as I don't think Tom Doak includes each inor ground contour when he talks about routing a course from a topo as he's flying to a site for his first visit. I would guess both assume there will be enough of that natural stuff to use on top of the bones the establish as the routing.

In the instance of CBM at NGLA, I'm arguing only that he knew the exact direction he was going to follow around the property before he optioned the 205 acres. If he negotiated for the ability to move a fence line here or there in the course of designing up the holes, great. But there was no mystery in December 1906 as to the specific site he was going to use and how he was going to use it.

Do you think the 205 acres was determined strictly because of his budget? Or would you allow for the actual land he was buying to factor in?

mike_malone

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #617 on: March 03, 2011, 02:04:32 PM »
 Doesn't anybody care about the poor ponies?
AKA Mayday

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #618 on: March 03, 2011, 02:09:34 PM »
Doesn't anybody care about the poor ponies?

That was the point of me asking Mike about the land being actually "inpenetrable"? His answer was that these ponies were invincable...

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #619 on: March 03, 2011, 02:35:07 PM »
I can't even begin to keep up with all this speculation and back and forth, not to mention Mike's continuing arguments against himself (he agrees with patrick that much was done on horseback, and then continues arguing that little or nothing could have been done because of the "impenetrable" land?   How does that work?   Oh well.)  Rather than engage in the banter, I am going to continue try and a few specific points at a time, in detail, in the hopes of getting past some of the false rhetoric.  I will use a quote of Mike's from earlier as a jumping off point.

I think the major area of disagreement I have with David is that I believe the agreement to buy 205 undetermined acres referred to on page 187 of CBMs book is the same event he later refers to as "securing" the property.

Mike needs to quit providing false quotes from the book and the articles. CBM doesn't later refer  to "'securing'" the property.  He wrote "we obtained an option on the land in November . . . "   Obtaining an option obligating the seller to convey of real property upon exercise of the option is an entirely different animal than a landowner simply indicating that he was willing to sell 200 out of his 450 acres.  I haven't sold my house by putting it on the market, and I haven't sold it if you and I discuss a price for it, and I am not even obligated to sell it if you are willing to give me the list price.  Transactions involving real property involve a hell of a lot more than the seller agreeing that he is willing to sell some undefined portion of his property.

Quote
I say this because the events described in the Dec 1906 articles talking about the boundaries being undetermined line up exactly with CBMs own description in his book.

1.  Do the articles "line up exactly with CBM's own description in his book"?

Not even close.  At least not with Mike's reading of the book.    

For the articles to "line up exactly" with Mike's reading of the book, then the articles would say that all that had happened so far was that CBM and Whigham had ridden the property for a few days and determined what they wanted, and then optioned the property.    Except for the horseback ride, they hadn't even earnestly studied contours.

But according to the articles, a hell of a lot more happened before they optioned the property.  Some examples . . .
     -- According to the articles, by mid-December they had been working on the project for months, and had studied the contours and routed the course at least to the extent that they could accurately describe the property and highlight the locations of CBM's version of the three most famous holes in the world along with an original hole bound for fame (and mention that there were other possibilities.)
    -- Not only that but according to the October articles, by mid-October they had already created detailed maps showing the elevation changes to five feet have been drawn up and other provided to experts around the world for discussion!  a
    -- Not only that but the others reportedly involved - Travis, and Emmett - had already been over the property, along with Watson, Chauncey, and others!  

So for Mike to say the articles "line up exactly" with his tenuous reading of CBM's book is ridiculous.   They don't line up at all.  But the articles do line up with a linear, chronological reading of the book.  

A linear, chronological reading tells us that before the option, they had not only ridden the property for two or three days, but they had "again [] studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes [CBM] had in mind, after which [they] staked out the land we wanted."
- This chronological reading of Scotland's Gift lines up with the articles which describe the land they had chosen and highlight how "various classical holes" fit in the contours they had had studied and chosen.
- This chronological reading of Scotland's Gift also lines up with the articles that indicate that by the time of the option they were well into the project.  Recall that in the October article only CBM and HJW are mentioned as having seen it, and the article states that Travis had not yet seen it.  By the time of the option, not only had Travis been over the land, but Emmett, Chauncey, Watson, and others had been over it as well.
- This chronological reading of Scotland's Gift also lines up with the reports from October that they were very far along in studying the contours.
- And the description of the "the land we wanted" in Scotland's Gift lines up with the land described in those December articles.  
     So it sure looks like those articles line up with a linear, chronological reading of Scotland's Gift, doesn't it?  

Mike Cirba, given that you put so much value on these articles, which reading of Scotland's Gift will you go with?  Mine, which is  consistent with the articles.  Or yours, which is not?

And, Mike, if all that had happened was that CBM and HJW had ridden the property, then how come the articles say that Emmett, Travis, Watson, Chauncey, and others had been over the property?  Was it a mini-calvary?   Was it a Posse, perhaps?   Were they planning on trampling the bushes and brambles into oblivion?

___________________________________________________________


2.   Do the articles say that the land and boundaries were "undetermined?"    

 According to Mike, CBM signed an option to choose any "205 acres out of the 450 acre plot."  That is what he has consistently claimed the articles say.  Here are just a few more of dozens of examples of Mike stating the same thing:
-- "It's very clear that he's talking about the property he had just secured at Sebonac Neck...205 'undetermined' acres out of 450 available."
-- CBM optioned "an undetermined 205 acres out of a much larger available plot."  
-- "I'm sure the contract said something about the undeveloped, unsurveyed Sebonac Neck property in the original agreement securing 205 undetermined acres of the 450 available."
-- "CBM tells us that the specifics of the land he secured is still undetermined."
-- "How does his securing 205 'undetermined' acres out of a 450 acre tract 'box himself in?'"

As you can see, Mike is using the term "undetermined" to argue that, at the time of the option, CBM had not yet gotten around to choosing the land he needed for the golf course.  As Jim Sullivan pointed out pages ago, Mike is presenting a situation where CBM optioned the property without even contemplating the location of the course within the 450 acres.  

Trouble is, Mike has repeatedly and dishonestly quoted the articles as stating the property was "'undetermined'" at the time of the option.  This is false.  The articles don't use the term "undetermined" and they certainly don't describe a scenario like Mike would have us believe-- that the location of the land had not yet been chosen.  In fact, contrary to Mike's claims, the articles not only describe the location of the 205 acres and shape of the 205, they highlight a number of details about the routing itself, including three famous models, another hole destined to be famous, and the location of the first and last tee.  So this notion that the location of the course had not yet been determined at the time of the option is nonsense.  

So what do the articles say that has lead to Mike's fixation on the term "'undetermined?'"  During the detailed description of the property and many of its features, the articles add that "the exact lines will not be staked out" until the the committee has finished its plans. That's it.
-- Nothing about the location of the course being as yet "undetermined" or even the boundaries being as yet "undetermined."  
-- Nothing about waiting to find a location for the course until later, during the option period.  
-- Nothing that would even suggest that the routing process had not yet begun.  
-- Nothing to suggest that working borders were not already in place.  

   The articles say  is that the "exact lines" will wait until the plan is finished.  Big deal.  CBM reportedly left himself some wiggle room to adjust part of the boundary (he couldn't move Peconic Bay or Bullshead or the Inn) in case he needed to.   This was an astute good move on his part, given that with this elongated strangely shaped property even a change on the western boundary would be enough to substantially impact the acreage.  He was covering all his options.  
    Even the term "exact lines" strongly suggests that there are already lines drawn, although they may have been "inexact."    But inexact is a far cry from the "undetermined" Mike has pretended is in the article.  

  So the articles DO NOT say or even imply that the land and boundaries were "undetermined."  In fact the describe the property.  How can you describe an "undetermined" property? The leap Mike makes from CBM having the option to adjust the boundaries later to Mike's conclusion that the course had not yet been routed is untenable, at best, especially given the ample evidence that the location and many of the holes were already in place.

I do agree that articles indicate that the planning was not yet complete, but we've known that that all along.

_________________________________________

Also, you East Coast guys can correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that by mid-December and for a few months after New York sometimes experienced something called 'Winter.' You guys ever hear of that?  

Accordingly, some of the articles indicate that work would not begin on the course until spring.   Are we really to believe that CBM was traipsing around out there all Winter through the brambles and bushes (because mike insists they would not have been cleared yet,) freezing his ass off while trying to study the contours and route the course?  

Give us a break.    
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 02:40:26 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #620 on: March 03, 2011, 02:52:41 PM »
The one winter I spent in New York, January to March, there wasn't a flake of snow. I was doing some student teaching and we took our class of 5th graders to Coney Island. Not only could you have worked on routing a golf course that winter, you could have played.

On the other hand, if 1906-07 had been like this winter, the only golf-related activity possible would have been cleaning the grooves on your mashie-niblick.

I can already sense somebody going to a historical weather site to see what the snowfall was for the winter of 1906-07. But it won't be me.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #621 on: March 03, 2011, 02:57:09 PM »
I can already sense somebody going to a historical weather site to see what the snowfall was for the winter of 1906-07. But it won't be me.

I would guess that the newspapers of the time reported weather developments with somewhat more reliability than the every twist and turn of a golf-course development.

Of course, I'm just guessing....
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #622 on: March 03, 2011, 03:01:46 PM »
Guys,

Your argument is with CBM, not me.

HE is the one who said "the only way we could get over the ground was on ponies."

HE is the one who said the land was thought to be useless.

HE is the one who wrote that it "abounded in bogs and swamps and was covered with an entanglement of...bushes and was infested with insects."

Sounds like just the place to do a 2 day routing across 450 acres!  ;)  ;D


Routing....man how loosely can we define the term?

I would think at minimm one would define routjng as locating 18 specific, contiguous tee and green locations on a property.

Is that some crazy, unrealistic definition?

I'm not talking bunkers, green sizes and configurations, fairway lines, etc.

Just simple tee and green locations...18 of them, as that's how many we need.

THAT was not done in 2 or 3 days, it wasn't done at the time CBM got "agreement" to buy 205 undetermined acres, and he tells us so both in contemporaneous articles as well as 20 years later in his book.

Andy...he wanted 205 acres since 1904, in his original Founders Letter Agreement.

It included;

110 acres for the golf course

5 acres for clubhouse and surrounds

1.5 acre lots for each of the 60 Founding members.


Here is the founders letter....






That number had NOTHING to do with having a completely routed course in December 1906.   There was NO completely routed course in December 1906.

Why you guys don't believe CBM is beyond me?  

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #623 on: March 03, 2011, 03:10:29 PM »
Mike,

Perhaps you should quit posting the same material over and over again and instead answer my questions?   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #624 on: March 03, 2011, 03:15:34 PM »

Rick,  I don't think it matters whether or not it was a bad winter.  CBM would have no way of knowing that beforehand when he was figuring a schedule.   

But I do scoff at the notion of him scheduling himself  to wait until Winter to route the course when he could have been out there since October or earlier!
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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