[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

The Shinnecock Hills Train Stop in 1906 was 1.1 miles due west from the train stop near Shinnecock Hills GC that this there today...you know, the one near Southampton College that opened termporarily for the recent US Opens.

The one at Southampton College was originally known as "Golf Grounds", and didn't open until April 1907, many months after these articles.

The articles tell us the western boundary of the golf course was between the Shinncock Hills Station, 1.1 miles west, and the inlet near Good Ground, which is further west, as you know.

The Shinnecock Hills train station in October 1906 was 1.1 miles west of today's Southampton College station (since abandoned) and 1 mile east of the Suffolk Downs station.

It was operational from the 1880s until 1932.    It was later converted into a Post Office, and today, still standing, it is a private residence.

Considering that today's NGLA goes about 2 miles due north from what was the Shinnecock Inn, I would think that the original course CBM wanted went about two miles due northwest, up towards Peconic Bay, skirting Cold Spring as I drew on my map..

That would place the westerly point between the Shinnecock Station and the inlet towards Good Ground, exactly as described.

Hope that helps.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

The article is dated correctly, October 15, 1906, which is what makes it interesting.  CBM and Whigham were apparently studying the land long before they ever optioned the property.  And this makes sense in the context of the December articles, for by the time they actually acquired the option in December a number of those involved had already been over the property, including "Emmet, Travis, Chauncey, Watson, and others."

As for Scotland's Gift, I've been through it in whole a number of times and while there are a few mistakes it is generally remarkably accurate, at least compared to most later written accounts documenting the beginnings of these clubs.  The date of that tournament is apparently wrong, but the mistake is perhaps understandable because they were golfing on the links in 1909. (There are photographs.)


Mike Cirba,

Your bias is showing once again.  You can't just ignore Macdonald on the SIZE and LOCATION and TIMING of his interest in the 120 acre Canal property.

As Patrick points out, Shinnecock is directly east of NGLA, where the two "adjoin."  

Also note the map you posted, and the identification of the "Cold Springs Bay INLET." The property stretches along Peconic Bay to the north and its furthest western point of the property is near the Cold Springs Bay Inlet.

The article also speaks of CBM and HJW having visited the property several times, which is consistent with them having studied the contours again and again, prior to optioning the property.

As for the bit about maps being created showing the grades, I don't know if the article is getting ahead of itself (as they did with the bit about the property already having been purchased) or whether Raynor had already been brought in.  Regardless, it is disingenuous for you to ignore everything else we know and focus on only this in your lame attempt to turn the described property into something it was not.  

As for the timing of the attempt to purchase the 120 acre canal property, it sounds as if it happened closer to the time that the land previously changed hands, which was fall of 1905.  That is when CBM said he first determined he wanted the property.  By fall of 1906 the preparations for development were likely well under way.   By the time that map came out roads had been built, the hotel was being finished, and the infrastructure was well in place.  Your lame attempt at inventing another site would have run right across the middle of all this, including the hotel, and skittled the entire development!  

________________________________

And Mike, I know where the train station was.  It was directly south of the Western point of Sebonack's course, and Sebonack Neck continues from there to the east to the Cold Springs Bay Inlet, which is north of but between the old station and Common Ground.

You ignore that this land was "stretching along Peconic Bay."    It didn't say the property was absurdly stretched to even get to Peconic Bay, like your silly drawing above.     

Isn't it about time you stopped trying to twist NGLA's history in service of your petty agenda?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Have you located the Shinnecock Hills Train Station yet at the time of that October 1906 article?

That should help make things clearer.

[Mike Cirba]

The entire hamlet of Hampton Bays, seen in the map below, was known at the beginning of the 20th century as "Good Ground".

The hamlet was settled in 1740 as "Good Ground", which became the main hamlet of eleven in the immediate area. The area where Main Street, also known as Montauk Highway, is located today, was the approximate area of the original hamlet known as Good Ground.

There were ten other hamlets in the area. The other hamlets in the area were called Canoe Place, East Tiana, Newtown, Ponquogue, Rampasture, Red Creek, Squiretown, Southport, Springville, and West Tiana. Most of these hamlets were settled by one or two families and had their own school house. Many of the names from the former hamlets are still featured as local street names today, as well as Hagstroms maps and Road Atlases.

As a result of the growth of the surrounding hamlets and villages in the Hamptons and increased tourism from New York City, the eleven hamlets, although generally called "Good Ground" collectively by the early part of the 20th century, amalgamated under the name "Hampton Bays" in 1922. The motive behind the name change was for the hamlet to benefit from the "Hamptons" trade that the hamlet's neighbors were experiencing.


Here is the area that was known as "Good Ground" in the early 20th century.





Back to the location of the train station, the Blue X marks the spot of the Shinnecock Hills Station on this 1907 map;




Actually, I slightly misplaced my yellow X on yesterday's map.   It is almost precisely where the red DOT is indicating Shinnecock Hills below;

[Mike Cirba]

This blowup of the area still known as "Good Ground" in the early part of the 20th century shows that it extended well east of the Canal to near the inlet of Cold Spring Bay coming from Great Peconic Bay.

[DMoriarty]

Mike I just told you that I knew where the train station was.  Can you not read?  Or do you just choose not to?

If Good Ground extended west of the canal that is all the more support that the description of the article is NOT of the 120 acres.  CBM DESCRIBES THAT PROPERTY AS BEING NEAR THE CANAL.

Have you read CBM's book where he describes first deciding to try and obtain 120 ACRES near the CANAL around the time the land changed hands (FALL OF 1906.)  

That should help make things clearer.  

Here is a map.   I've marked where the land adjoins Shinnecock Hills course to the east.   I've also marked where the land stretches along Peconic Bay, and stopped this line about at the Inlet.    The old Shinnecock RR station is the small red dot, labeled "Shinnecock Hills" in white.   One can see that the inlet is well west of the old station, thus putting it between this station and "Good Ground" to the west.



The article descriptions are rough, but they seem to be describing the Sebonack Neck section of the larger property controlled by SHPBRC.  At this time this section of the property was not yet physically developed with roads and infrastructure.  

Articles report that shortly after the property changed hands in 1905, Olmstead was called in to plot out the plan for the development, so this process was well underway by the fall of 1906.   Surely CBM was not trying to buy land that development Company had already begun developing.

Again, Mike, you cannot just cherry pick little details and run with them.  You have to keep researching and try to figure out the bigger picture.    And in the bigger picture it seems that CBM first became interested in this land in or around the fall of 1905, but around that time Alvord/SHPBRC bought the land for around $50 an acre and immediately commenced planning to develop the infrastructure of the Eastern section of the property nearest to civilization.    CBM offered them four times what they paid for 120 acres on the east side of this property - near the canal and away from Shinnecock Hills' course - but they rejected his offer and continued developing the property, so that by fall of 1906 the Hotel was being constructed and the physical development of the infrastructure was well on its way.  

At some point after returning from abroad in 1906 CBM turned his attention to the portion of the land that had not been included in the first stage of development - the Sebonack Neck portion of the property.  This property stretched out along PECONIC BAY from approximately the COLD SPRINGS BAY INLET all the way to Bulls Head Bay, and ADJOINED SHINNECOCK HILLS GOLF COURSE. It SKIRTED THE RR TO THE SOUTH, but did not actually border the RR (this was a plus for CBM, as he wanted to be "alone with nature.")    

He and HJW rode the land and decided it was the place for their course.   SHPBRC agreed to sell them a portion of the land, and so CBM and HJW again studied it in earnest and found their course, roughly staking out the land they needed for it.  They then optioned the property in December 1906, leaving themselves time to work out the details of the plan and leeway to tweak the boundaries if necessary.    

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Why don't you just grab the entire South Fork of Long Island with your enclosure?  

I assume you realize your enclosure is over SIX MILES from point to point to point?

Here, read the description of where the land was again.   ALL of the points are clearly identifiable now that we have a better sense of what constituted "Good Ground".



Perhaps CBM also made an offer for the land closer to the canal...he probably did.  We know he wanted good access to NYC and there was an Inn right on the Canal, as well.  This article from a few weeks later on Nov 1, 1906 makes me wonder if he thought the Canal site further west was still in play at this late date, as well?  



However, it seems from the look of things he had to keep moving further eastward to get what he needed prior to securing the land he ended up with in December 1906.

In any case, the following shows all the identified points.


The yellow line on the bottom is the Long Island Railroad to the SOUTH.

The Blue X is the site of the Shinneock Inn and Shinnecock GC to the EAST.

The Red X is the site of the Shinnecock Train Station.

The Green X is the site of the Inlet near what was known as Good Ground (indicated by the Orange Line) to the WEST.

The Purple Line indicates Peconic Bay to the NORTH

The light yellow enclosure is a rough estimation of the land he envisioned for the golf course.


p.s.  This proposed land was simply empty, surveyed lots at the time CBM was trying to secure it.   This map from seven months later shows only one lot in that whole area having been purchased to date.   As noted, the land CBM eventually purchased looks to be unsurveyed to the far northeast;

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,

The article is dated correctly, October 15, 1906, which is what makes it interesting.  CBM and Whigham were apparently studying the land long before they ever optioned the property.  And this makes sense in the context of the December articles, for by the time they actually acquired the option in December a number of those involved had already been over the property, including "Emmet, Travis, Chauncey, Watson, and others."

 

It's doubly interesting.  For one, this article says they bought the land in the first part of October.  In Scotland's Gift CBM says November.  Other contemporaneous articles suggest December, and the article Mike copied from November 1 says they had narrowed it down to two choices by then, but that cost concerns might rule out both. 

It seems to me that each report conflicts with the others.   

 

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

As seen in my posts today, there is no way in Hades that the land in the articles from October and November 1906 is the land he ended up securing in December 1906.

The articles are accurate, except for perhaps the premature idea in October that the original site going towards Good Ground had been "purchased".

But it's not the same piece of land as what he ended up with.

THAT's what's confusing.

[Mike Cirba]

Actually, looking at that site again it looks pretty terrific.

I believe I even spy the site for a natural Cape Hole!    

And, it certainly doesn't look flat in the least, as Patrick suggested.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

It is even stranger than that, because the property was not purchased in the fall of 1906 at all. An option was obtained.   The property was not actually purchased until the next spring.  

But it makes some sense when one goes back to what CBM said.  

1.   He says they first rode the property - the October article says that CBM and HJW had been over the property several times - and then the owner agreed to sell him the property.  I don't think this was a formal transaction, but just the landowner agreeing that he would sell it, who knows what terms - if any - they had agreed upon at that point.  You have to remember that his land wasn't even necessarily for sale - it had just been purchased by someone who was planning to develop it.  So the first step was to get the owner to consider selling it.  My guess is that this is what the October articles prematurely report.  That CBM had convinced the land owner to sell him a portion of this land on Sebonack Neck.  

2.  They then studied the land earnestly, found land that would work for what they wanted to do, and then roughly marked off the land they wanted to purchase.  I suspect that this was done between October and December 1906.

3.  They optioned 205 acres in December, with the proviso that they could adjust the boundaries if need be.    

4.  They drew up the detailed plans and then purchased the property in the spring.  

As for the November 1st articles, those are strange because it doesn't sound like CBM ever seriously considered the Montauk property because of the cost.   It may have been that he was in negotiations with SHPBRC regarding the price and wanted to send a message that he was willing to walk away.   Those October articles certainly did him no favors given that they did not yet have a formal deal.  

___________________________________

Mike Cirba,

I keep hoping your heart is in the right place even if your mind isn't, but you repeatedly show yourself to have little or no intellectual integrity.    

The property described not only adjoined Shinnecock Hills golf course it "stretched along Peconic Bay" with its furthest western point being near the Cold Springs inlet.   That is a description of Sebonack Neck, which stretches along the Peconic to Cold Springs Inlet.  

Your comical attempt to avoid this reality has you drawing out lines completely avoiding Peconic Bay.  Then, as if an afterthought, you disingenuously grab a tiny bit of the Peconic Bay coastline west of the inlet!  A rather pitiful attempt to pull in a bit of coastline, as if then the property "stretched along Peconic Bay."  

This course of yours stretches for over two miles, which means that at 120 acres the width of your pencil thin plot would have had to average around a mere 160 yards for its entire length, over generally uninteresting land!

And by  the time that map was produced the roads were in place and the infrastructure complete and they were advertising for someone to lease and run the hotel.  Yet you pretend that in the fall of 1906 CBM was planning on putting a pencil thin course across the middle of it.  

Stop this nonsense already.   You are behaving like a common charlatan.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

How does NGLA "skirt the Long Island Railroad", or have a westerly point between the Shinnecock rail station and the inlet near Good Ground? My course does.

And how does today's NGLA have Shinnecock Hills to the East?   It's almost due south.

And yes, on mine Peconic Bay is north and I skirt it for about as long as today's NGLA course does.

And by the way, today's NGLA course, if you start at the 9th green and go the whole route around is also actually 2.05 miles, one way.

My width may be off, I certainly didn't measure closely and was only meant to be approximate, but I'm virtually certain my general course and land is correct and completely follows the landmarks of the articles you posted.    It may even be larger if indeed Macdonald was trying to buy 250 acres there and not 205.
  
The idea that there were roads in place is not correct.   They were either proposed or dirt.   Fortunately, it had been surveyed, which the NGLA/Sebonack land still had not.

By the way, what's uninteresting about the ground contours of that course??  (see Topo I just posted above)

Don't listen to Patrick...he thinks NGLA was routed on horseback in 2 days and is the epitome of the prejudicial witness.  

[DMoriarty]

David,

How does NGLA "skirt the Long Island Railroad", or have a westerly point between the Shinnecock rail station and the inlet at Good Ground?

You have got to be pulling my leg.  

It does not say "INLET AT GOOD GROUND."  It says westerly point was "near the inlet between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station."

The inlet between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station is COLD SPRINGS INLET.  Look at the map you posted. It is labeled "COLD SPRINGS INLET" and it is between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station.  

The property wasn't near Shinnecock Station or Good Ground. Those were just used to describe the inlet, which was COLD SPRINGS INLET.    The property bordered Shinnecock Hills golf course and stretched along Peconic Bay to a westerly point NEAR COLD SPRINGS INLET.  

And yes, Peconic Bay is north.

You are a charlatan.  It does not just say Peconic Bay is north.  It describes the land as "stretching along Peconic Bay to the north." STRETCHING ALONG PECONIC BAY.   Not a mile and a half south of Peconic bay.  

And yes, today's course, if you start at the 9th green and go the whole route around is about 2 miles, one way.

Huh?  It two miles only if you measure in the shore line of Peconic, Bulls Head Bay, and then from the Eden to the 9th green.   But that is an absurd comparison, like comparing the diameter of a circle to half the circumference.    NGLA measures must over 1 1/4 miles in a straight line.  Your supposed course measures over two miles in a straight line.   It would have to be pencil thin!

My width may be off, but my course and land is correct and completely follows the articles you posted.

First, it doesn't follow the articles because it isn't stretching "along Peconic Bay" and it goes past the inlet.

Second for you to claim it is correct is downright laughable.   This is about your fifth attempt and still you have no clue.    

The idea that there were roads in place is not correct.   They were either proposed or dirt.

Again you are just making things up.  Do the research before you say stuff like this.  You must know by now that I don't make things up, and I wasn't just making things up when I said that reportedly Olmstead planned the place and they spent asubstantial sum of money developing the infrastructure such as the roads.   And what do you think country roads were made of in 1906, anyway?  

Here is the map with your supposed course converted to 121.7 acres.   A joke.  



AND MIKE, YOUR SUPPOSED COURSE RUNS RIGHT ON TOP OF THE DAMN HIGHWAY FOR LONGER THAN IT RUNS ALONG PECONIC BAY.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

You're starting my course much too close to Shinnecock.   Please move it a good short par four to the west.   And, c'mon..let's see it at 250 acres, I know you can do better than that! 

Second, weren't there any "roads" near the Canal course?   Yet, you're fine with that?

Third, is this what you call "skirting Peconic Bay to the north"?




I'd say my proposed course skirts it to the north a damn sight better than that! 

[DMoriarty]

David,

You're starting my course much too close to Shinnecock.   Please move it a good short par four to the west.   And, c'mon..let's see it at 250 acres, I know you can do better than that!  

- CBM offered to buy 120 acres by the Canal.  You cannot just change this willy-nilly, and I wont change it on my map.  

- This land was said to "adjoin the Shinnecock Hills course."  Look up the word "adjoin" if you don't know what it means.   Yours doesn't even come close to adjoining the course.

- YOUR FICTIONAL PLOT IS NOWHERE NEAR THE CANAL.

Second, weren't there any "roads" near the Canal course?   Yet, you're fine with that?

- There were apparently few if any roads near the canal except for the main highway when CBM decided to try and acquire this land in the Fall of 1905!   That is when SHPBRC bought the property and began planning to develop it.  
- That map shows the results of their development of the infrastructure, so presumably not much of that was there initially, but it was increasingly there as they built the infrastructure.

-This is another reason why we know your timing is screwed up.  I've told you this repeatedly but you ignore it.  

Third, is this what you call "skirting Peconic Bay to the north"?

- CBM described the raw property as having a mile of frontage on Peconic Bay, which is what I'd call "stretching along Peconic Bay."

Give it up Mike.  You just cant twist the facts to suit your petty aims.   I wont let you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here, read the description of where the land was again.   ALL of the points are clearly identifiable now that we have a better sense of what constituted "Good Ground".

Mike, your newest version of "Good Ground" differs from your earlier location of "Good Ground", lending credence to the suspicion that you make up things up, as you go along, to suit your agenda.  YOU constantly CHANGE YOUR POSITION as you're either refuted, or as additional newspaper articles are discovered by Joe and/or David.[/b]



Perhaps CBM also made an offer for the land closer to the canal...he probably did.  We know he wanted good access to NYC and there was an Inn right on the Canal, as well.  This article from a few weeks later on Nov 1, 1906 makes me wonder if he thought the Canal site further west was still in play at this late date, as well?  

Good access to NYC ?  ?  ?
You've got to be an idiot, or think that we're idiots if you believe that a couple of hundred yards closer to NYC was "THE" defining factor in siting the property.

In addition, that property is so incredibly bland when compated to the property adjoining Shinnecock Hills.

There's NO COMPARISON in the land.
If both were available, noone in their right mind would pick your plot, especially with a highway, the North Highway, running right down the center of your alleged plot.[/b]



However, it seems from the look of things he had to keep moving further eastward to get what he needed prior to securing the land he ended up with in December 1906.

In any case, the following shows all the identified points.


The yellow line on the bottom is the Long Island Railroad to the SOUTH.

The Blue X is the site of the Shinneock Inn and Shinnecock GC to the EAST.

The Red X is the site of the Shinnecock Train Station.

The Green X is the site of the Inlet near what was known as Good Ground (indicated by the Orange Line) to the WEST.

The Purple Line indicates Peconic Bay to the NORTH

The light yellow enclosure is a rough estimation of the land he envisioned for the golf course.

If he did, he must have been drinking heavily because that light yellow enclosure of yours has a highway running right smack down the middle of it.[/b]

p.s.  This proposed land was simply empty, surveyed lots at the time CBM was trying to secure it.

Mike, it is dishonest, not just intellectually dishonest, but flat out dishonest, when you make things up and then draw predetermined, erroneous conclusions, presenting them as factually bona fide

That land was NOT empty.
The NORTH Highway, the predecessor to the Sunrise Highway ran right through it, all the way to Amagansett.
The NORTH Highway ran right through the center of your golf course.

But, there's something else about the land you NOW declare was the original site.
It's relatively FLAT, hardly the land that Macdonald would consider in placing his ideal holes.
He was looking for land to place his Redan, his Alps, his Eden, his Cape, his Bottle, his Sahara. his Leven, his Punchbowl
The land you've outlined lacks the dramatic topograhy to site those holes.
And the land that borders Cold Spring Bay is not ideal land for golf, especially near the inlet.

What probably bothers David and others is that you accept newspaper articles as The Gospel, when they suit your purpose, and seem to ignore them when they don't.  But, what's more disturbing is the quantum leaps of logic you make, leading to conclusions that suit your predetermined aganda, from the reading of two or more seperate articles, articles that have been shown to be grossly inaccurate.

Lastly, David's complaint that you're the one hopping about, conveniently changing your position based upon the latest of an evolving stream of newspaper articles, is valid.  He's  been consistent in his presentation, whereas your presentation changes with each refutation of your prior position and your willingness to embrace the latest newspaper article absent verification of its veracity.[/b]

This map from seven months later shows only one lot in that whole area having been purchased to date.   As noted, the land CBM eventually purchased looks to be unsurveyed to the far northeast;

But, the NORTH Highway is still there, right down the center of your alleged, narrow golf course.[/b]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

One of the things that's troubling me is the following.

If the land was empty, as you say, why would you put a train station in the middle of it ?

The Southampton Station was on North Main Street in Southampton, miles to the East.

Southampton College wasn't established until 1963.

So why locate a railroad station where nobody resides ?
It doesn't make sense.

Unless, the newspaper articles are flawed ..... again.

Or, unless your source for the history and current status of the railroad station was WIKIPEDIA.

Could you tell us how you determined the site of the station ?

Is there any other source that confirms the existance, date of operation and location of a Shinnecock station ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

How does NGLA "skirt the Long Island Railroad", or have a westerly point between the Shinnecock rail station and the inlet near Good Ground? My course does.

And how does today's NGLA have Shinnecock Hills to the East?   It's almost due south.

Mike, that's just not a lie, it's a huge lie, especially in the context of the quoted articles at the time they were written.
You conveniently forget that the current 10th hole was the temporary 1st hole and that Shinnecock is DIRECTLY EAST of the first hole.
Shinnecock Hills GC is also DIRECTLY EAST of the original, temporary 18th hole (today's 9th).
Shinnecock Hills is DIRECTLY EAST of the original, temporary starting and finishing holes.
So how can you claim that Shinnecock Hills is South of NGLA ?
That's incredibly disengenuous and you know it.[/b]

And yes, on mine Peconic Bay is north and I skirt it for about as long as today's NGLA course does.

And by the way, today's NGLA course, if you start at the 9th green and go the whole route around is also actually 2.05 miles, one way.

My width may be off, I certainly didn't measure closely and was only meant to be approximate, but I'm virtually certain my general course and land is correct and completely follows the landmarks of the articles you posted.    It may even be larger if indeed Macdonald was trying to buy 250 acres there and not 205.
  
The idea that there were roads in place is not correct.   They were either proposed or dirt.   Fortunately, it had been surveyed, which the NGLA/Sebonack land still had not.

NOT TRUE.

The NORTH HIGHWAY, the predecessor to the Sunrise highway ran right through your plot.

Or, is it your contention that all roads stopped at the Western side of the Shinnecock Canal ?

The Montauk Highway and the North Highway were the arteries that led to the development of the East end, along with the RR,
Unless you think that the RR came first and the roads much later.

You'll note, in the exhibits you presented, that they identify the "NORTH HIGHWAY" and not a "north dirt road"
And, if there were no roads there, how did you get to the train station ?
Or, why would they build a train station to a location VOID of roads.

This just represents more fiction on your part.
You seem to have a willingness to make up things, draw conclusions from the things you've made up, and then declare them as factually bona fide.[/b]

By the way, what's uninteresting about the ground contours of that course??  (see Topo I just posted above)

If you were familiar with the land, you'd know.
Although, having a highway running through the course would be interesting.

Compare your topo to NGLA and tell me what you think[/b]
Don't listen to Patrick...he thinks NGLA was routed on horseback in 2 days and is the epitome of the prejudicial witness.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

You're a man who has already reached a conclusion that's desperately searching for selective facts to support that conclusion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

If there were no roads, as you insist, how did people get to Shinnecock Hills ?

Helicopter ?
Yacht ?
RR then walk ?

OR

VIA THE NORTH HIGHWAY ?

Which runs right through your golf course.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick/David,

C'mon guys...you both keep typing all sorts of insults and I guess I can understand your frustration at trying to make these facts fit your story, but neither of you have come close to showing us how the land they eventually purchased comes anywhere near "Good Ground", as those Oct/Nov articles consistently refer to as the western border, much less skirting the Long Island RR to the south.

You aren't even within several miles of Good Ground, are you?

So, although I really didn't expect this thread to take this unexpected turn, I am just sincerely trying to follow the evidence where it leads.

David,

Why couldn't CBM be trying to secure EITHER the land near the canal OR the land I drew up further west at the same time, seeing what the company was willing to sell?  It seems from most accounts that CBM tried to consider any number of options.

Patrick,

Let's wave a magic wand any pretend for a second that those Oct/Nov articles were indeed talking about the land he actually purchased, preposterous as that may be based on the evidence at hand.

But pretending for a second, how in the hell do the descriptions of the activities in those articles jive with the idea of CBM routing the course in two days on horseback?  

Or, should the story read, CBM routed in two days on horsebaxk, 20 days of transatlantic mail, 10 days of Travis consulting, two months to hire Raynor and have him survey the land, and a partridge in a pear tree?  .

[DMoriarty]

Patrick/David,

C'mon guys...you both keep typing all sorts of insults and I guess I can understand your frustration at trying to make these facts fit your story,

First, it is not my story.  It is CBM's story, and unlike many of the fictions and legends involving some of these courses there just isn't that much mystery.

Second, our frustration is hard earned, and comes as a direct result of having to deal with your endless disingenuous and agenda driven claims and/or your inability to honestly deal with the historical record.  Go back and review your posts over the past three days, for example.  Again and again you state things as if they were absolute fact, and again and again it is nothing but crap.  Total fiction.  Total agenda driven drivel.  You get more wrong in a week than Patrick or I have gotten wrong in years.  You regularly produce more bullshit than a rodeo.  

No matter how many times you are proven wrong, you just keep it coming, learning nothing, shamelessly stepping straight from one misrepresentation or unsupported fantastic conclusion to another.  You are the Energizer Bunny of misinformation.  It doesn't matter how often you are wrong, you just keep shoveling the shit into the fire, hoping to keep your agenda on the track.

Like in the post above, for example.   You have shamelessly pretended that those articles were referencing the 120 acres of land near the canal, again and again, post after post, lame-ass drawing after lame-ass drawing, not suggesting but insisting - INSISTING - that you knew best and that your contrived pencil thin outline containing a highway was definitely the right land.   Wasting all of our time with your bullshit.  To no avail.

So what's next for you?   You just segue from one smelly pile of misinformation into the next smelly pile of misinformation.  This time you create an entirely new attempted transaction!  Let's pretend that in additon to the other properties, CBM was also trying to buy this bizarre two mile narrow strip of property containing the highway.   Never mind that there is NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for this.  Never mind that he'd have to have been an IDIOT to conceive of such a thing.    Those things do not matter to you.  You want it to be true, so you will not let minor details like facts get in your way.  You'll just make up some more crap and pretend like you know best.   And we will all waste another week of watching you try to pound your round peg into a square hole.  

Why couldn't CBM be trying to secure EITHER the land near the canal OR the land I drew up further west at the same time, seeing what the company was willing to sell?  It seems from most accounts that CBM tried to consider any number of options.

Bullshit. Nothing but bullshit.  You just made this up.  You have your conclusion, and now you are making things up to try and support your conclusion.    Never mind that CBM didn't try to consider "a number of options" in this area.  He considered TWO OPTIONS.  The 120 acre option by the canal, and the property he purchased.   Those articles from October describe the former.  

It is too much, Mike. You just cannot make shit up in the hopes of supportings your predetermined, agenda driven conclusion.  It is intellectually dishonest.  

Quit acting like a charlatan and quit wasting our time.
 

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Was that highway there in 1906?   I don't think so.

How did people get out to the Hamptons then?   Fire up the Ford Mustang?

And exactly where that canal did the proposed highway not intersect and where were there less proposed lots drawn??  Why do you believe CBM was looking and making offers near the canal but reject out of hand what your articles tell you he was looking at closer to Shinnecock?

C'mon...that proposed drawing of what the development might look like had nothing to do with reality.   Couldn't they have built the highway closer to the tracks had CBM purchased the land up near the water??   It wouldn't be the first highway in America to parallel railroad tracks, I'm sure.

There was a train going through the area, and a few stops about a mile apart.   It was undeveloped land, although the part south of Cold Spring Lake along what is today Shinnecock Hills looks at least to have been surveyed.   The plethora of empty proposed lots tells the story of how populated the area was at that time.

As far as whether CBM was looking at other properties in the area, what the heck do you think he was doing all of that time?

Here's what he wrote again, in a VERY brief summary 20 years after the fact;






There are a couple of odd things here.

First, the sale from a British company to Alvord's group (yes, which spawned the Shinnecock Hills & Peconic Bay Realty Co. as you told me) happened in the fall of 1905, a full year prior to these events.

If CBM made an offer to them a few weeks later for 120 acres near the canal, which as we've seen is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of what was known at the time as "Good Ground", we really don't know when it was rejected, or for that matter when he actually made the offer, but we do know at some point he made an offer and it was rejected.   All we know for sure is that a few weeks after the sale to Alvord, CBM determined "we should build a course there if we could secure the land", and that his subsequent offer was rejected. at some point

CBM then went abroad for several months in the first part of 1906 to further his golf course studies, returning in June 1906.

All of the news accounts at that juncture still had CBM searching for a site for this golf course.   Should I repost them??

So what was he then looking at for the next five months?   I'm presuming he'd be scouring the land the Alvord just purchased...it was over 2700 acres, and much of it was already surveyed as seen, except for those wild reaches up into the northeast that "everyone thought was more or less worthless", right?  He also seemed to be looking way out between Amagansett and Montauk, so he was looking at a pretty broad stretch.

It wasn't until I found the article from November 1st, 1906, right after the "inter-city" matches stating that CBM had narrowed his search down to two potential sites;  one out near Montauk, and one near Good Ground, which I assumed was the canal land.

Note the article makes clear that the land was on the western side of Shinnecock Hills.




It was only when you subsequently posted your articles from October that made very clear what the parameters of the 250 acres CBM was looking for...east was Shinnecock Hills, south was the LIRR, north was Peconic Bay, and west was the inlet between the Shinnecock Hills rail station and Good Ground, which we've clearly identified as having come further east than the canal in those days.

This isn't a difficult puzzle nor are those coordinates difficult to roughly determine.  

My lord, when you posted that map yesterday you'd stretched the western boundaries of NGLA some miles not only past all of today's ebonack GC, but also past the entire Cold Spring Lake to try and get it out near that inlet.   There is no way on earth those articles talking about today's golf course location would cite "Good Ground" as the location...not a chance.   Furthermore, today's NGLA no more skirts the Long Island RR than Pebble Beach does.

Here is the map you drew with your attempt to make the landmarks mentioned in those articles relevant to today's course drawn in red lines.   I've added blue lines that show exactly where the boundaries of NGLA end, and they are nowhere near the LIRR, much less the inlet towards Good Ground to the west.   The parameters of the golf course I drew running west instead of north from the Shinnecock Inn does meet those parameters, very clearly and without stretching any points for miles as you've done here.

I've also added an orange boundary to indicate the eastern boundary of the land known as "Good Ground" at the time, and I've indicated the canal in purple.




So, based on the recent articles you and I have found from Oct/Nov 1906 we definitely have some new mysteries here and I'm not citing any of this as fact, other than what the article(s) state and trying to see where they lead;

There are a number of possibilities.

1) The articles were wrong and misreported what CBM said
2) CBM didn't feel that what might have been a public setback was something he wanted reported in detail in his book.
3) This was indeed the site closer to the canal and "Good Ground", but CBM got some details wrong in his book.

All are very possible, but one thing that seem impossible is for the land that is described in those articles to be the site of NGLA today.

If this conversation is getting you frustrated you don't need to participate.  

I do appreciate you adding materials here, but when you post a map where you tell us the western boundary of NGLA is the inlet on the western end of Cold Spring Lake then I have to ask who is the intellectually disengenous one here and who is the one who is open to learning new information.  

Consider there are more possibilities here David, than the paragraph or two CBM wrote in his book 20+ years later in his 70s that describe his activities over a period of years.

Thanks.


Patrick,

What about this land looks flat, boring, or uninteresting for golf purposes to you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Would you (or Joe) please provide the balance of the Olmstead Bros schematic, so that we can see more of what was East of the schematic border you posted.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick/David,

C'mon guys...you both keep typing all sorts of insults and I guess I can understand your frustration at trying to make these facts fit your story, but neither of you have come close to showing us how the land they eventually purchased comes anywhere near "Good Ground", as those Oct/Nov articles consistently refer to as the western border, much less skirting the Long Island RR to the south.
Mike, you change your position as each new newspaper article is discovered by Joe Bausch.

You first claimed that the site for NGLA was at "Good Ground" and that it was entirely West of the canal, and you defended that claim indicating that you were absolutely correct.  
Now, you have a new claim.
Now, you're claiming that the golf course was entirely East of the Canal, in that narrow strip of land north of the Railroad tracks, hugging the north shore.  The only problem is that that narrow strip of land had a major thoroughfare, the North Highway, running right through it.

And, your most recent claim refutes your earlier claim and states that NGLA was in the narrow strip East of the canal.  But wait, what about your beloved articles claiming that you could see the Atlantic from everywhere on the property except the low lying areas.
Are you sure that your "new" course affords those views ?[/b]


David,

Why couldn't CBM be trying to secure EITHER the land near the canal OR the land I drew up further west at the same time, seeing what the company was willing to sell?  It seems from most accounts that CBM tried to consider any number of options.

Probably because the land in the narrow strip isn't exciting land, land with great undulations.
You may recall, in one of your newspaper articles, a reference to the land that was very similar to the land at Shinnecock.
There is NO land like that to the west of the Sebonic Neck Property (NGLA & Sebonack)[/b]

Patrick,

Let's wave a magic wand any pretend for a second that those Oct/Nov articles were indeed talking about the land he actually purchased, preposterous as that may be based on the evidence at hand.

But pretending for a second, how in the hell do the descriptions of the activities in those articles jive with the idea of CBM routing the course in two days on horseback?  

It's easy to see why you get confused.
You automatically, and without doubt, accept each newly posted newspaper article that seems to favor your predetermined conclusion, as being perfect in its factual content.

Just a short while ago you were arguing that you could see the Atlantic from NGLA, solely based on your blind belief that a newspaper article had describing the present site at NGLA, which, we now know, it didn't.

As each newspaper article comes to light, thanks to Joe Bausch, you automatically embrace it as being 100 % factual, even though, many of the articles were written by people who never saw the land, people who were distant third parties, far removed from the project who have confused their accounts time after time.

So, what do you do.
You ask me/us to reconcile faulty or erroneous newspaper accounts with CBM's written words, only you accept faulty, or at the very least, questionable newspaper articles as factual, while at the same time rejecting CBM's own written account as factual.

A perfect example is the newspaper headline that proclaimed:
"Dewey defeats Truman"

After seeing that article you would ask me to explain how it's possible that Truman beat Dewey when the contemporaneous accounts indicate just the opposite.

Well, the answer is simple.  The newspaper accounts are just that, accounts.  They're not factual.  They are not first party information, they're merely third party reporting far removed from the actual events.  And, as we've seen, time and time again, they're just repeating a previously article that was erroneous in its content. (AP)[/b]

Or, should the story read, CBM routed in two days on horsebaxk, 20 days of transatlantic mail, 10 days of Travis consulting, two months to hire Raynor and have him survey the land, and a partridge in a pear tree?  .

I'm content to generally accept Macdonald as his written word indicates.
You, on the other hand can't do that because it would destroy your attempt to reject Macdonald's abilty to route Merion in short order.

And, with Merion, he had a much easier task because the land was surveyed, I believe topos existed and the land was benign, not hostile as was the land at NGLA.  If he could establish a basic routing at NGLA, over inhospitable terrain, in two or three days, he could certainly route Merion in short order, and, that's your biggest fear and the sole reason for this thread.

Desperate men do desperate things, and nowhere is that more evident than on this thread.

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