[Jim_Kennedy]

[TEPaul]

Peter Pallotta:

I think your #23 is an excellent post and thought and contribution to this thread and others like it with the same participants. Therefore, I think what you said very much does belong on this thread.

I would also suggest that you elaborate on your #23 and give us some other examples of how narrative shape and the chronicling of various and perhaps smaller historical details sometimes do run at odds with one another.

If you do, I will contribute one that it actually a current story----eg the recent movie on the life and times of the great race horse Secretariat and his owner. The movie production and presentation did not exactly make up some detail of what Secretariat actually did do but there is no question at all that in the life and times of Secretariat's owner, the movie production actually combined two horses and what they did for their owner into one horse---Secretariat. Therefore the movie is not completely historically accurate but will probably be taken to be historically accurate in the future which to some historians may seem somewhat maddening and queer since Sectretariat is arguably considered to be the greatest race horse that ever lived!

I can understand why the movie did that but it is not accurate in detail and to determine that with research is actually a remarkable easy thing to do.

[TEPaul]

PeterP:

Now that I thnk about it some more, there is actually a remarkable parallel and probably a remarkable analogy with the recent popular movie on Secretraiat and his owner to the history of Myopia with Willie Campbell and that original 1894 nine hole course.

Campbell was written out of Myopia's history with that nine and further he was actually written out of Myopia's history and history book altogether. In the portrayal of the life and times of Secretariat and his owner in this recent very popular movie there was a race horse and arguably a near great race horse that was completely written out of that history and story as well. Without Riva Ridge in 1972 and particularly being entered in the Kentucky Derby the world may never have seen Secretariat and his great Triple Crown year of 1973 including its culmination, the Belmont, which is still today considered to be the greatest race ever run by a thoroughbred and certainly the most awe-inspiring race ever run. What Big Red (Secretariat) did in the last 2-3 fulongs of that final Triple Crown race still makes those in the business shake their heads in wonder. When I watch the stretch run in the tape of that race it still brings tears to my eyes. We saw a race horse not just break away and win the final leg of the Triple Crown by 31 lengths, we saw a thorougbred run right up to the pinnacle of the history of that sport, past, present, and perhaps future! But without Riva Ridge who was written out of the story in the movie Secretariat's remarkable 1973 Triple Crown year may never have happened or at least not the way it did and with the owner it did!!!

[TEPaul]

Jim Kennedy said the following about Myopia on this thread:

"The Myopia articles, for better or worse, challenge that clubs guarded and conventional narrative. As it becomes more apparent that it might be part fact/part fiction, it causes those taking the conservative position to make the articles appear less than valuable instead of trying to sort out their proper worth."


Since some think this thread may not be the appropriate thread to discuss Myopia on I will put my response to what Jim Kennedy said above on the recent Myopia thread.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
When it comes to the actual development of the golf course your articles jump from August 1908 to May 1910. There is one article in between, but it doesn't involve the development of the course. Why such a long gap in reports?

You know there were numerous reports on the NGLA in magazines, why did you choose to exclude them and only include newspaper reports? I'm confident adding the magazine accounts would present a more complete picture, and eliminate that big gap.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I'm not looking to exclude anything from any time period and still hope this thread can be a place where others can add relevant articles from any source.

Please feel free to add whatever you like and I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.

[JMEvensky]

Why was the creation of NGLA so public?

Just looking at some of the founders' names,I'd have guessed they would find the process unseemly.

[TEPaul]

"Why was the creation of NGLA so public?"



Jeff:

I would say, and I think facts and history would bear it out just about 100% that the reason the creation of NGLA was so public could be boiled down in ToTo to three words-----Charles Blair MacDonald!

That's the way he wanted to do it and that's the way he did do it!



In counterpoint to the creation of NGLA, certainly known to be a great early American golf course, is another great early American golf course and significant architect of it----Myopia and particularly Herbert C. Leeds.

As much as Macdonald was into publiciity, Leeds was not into it.

I would challenge anyone on here to find me even a single remark that Herbert C. Leeds ever made to the press or publicly, or even a letter that somehow got into the public domain. I don't believe anyone will ever find a factually attributed statement that Leeds made to a reporter or the press and public. But with Macdonald over there years there were hundreds if not thousands of them and we have found and are continuing to find them from him.

Find me a single one from Herbert C. Leed that he purposefully made public or publicly! I'll betcha a buck you won't!

[JMEvensky]

TEP,I guess I suspected CBM's ego to be the reason.

Interesting that he could cow some pretty big swinging d***s.

[Mike Cirba]

Just to clarify...I find nothing in "Scotland's Gift" to be in error, or inconsistent with the news articles presented contemporaneously, with the exception of a single date of the first informal invitational tournament, which is well documented elsewhere.

My point was simply that in Macdonald's book he summarizes some matters in a few short paragraphs that took months if not years to transpire.  The book is a tremendous recapitulation of events, and I only mentioned it was published in 1928...I do not claim to know when various sections were written.

I also base my understanding not only on the news articles, but on George Bahto's seminal and well-researched book, "The Evangelist of Golf", which I heartily recommend anyone interested purchase immediately.

One question I have in looking at CBM's book again this morning.   What do we know about the 120 acres that Macdonald mentions he tried to buy shortly before buying the 205 acres on the present site?

[Mike Cirba]

One other question while I think of it...

Do we know if Seth Raynor was hired to do his survey of the NGLA property (and then other extended duties) before or after it was secured by Macdonald in November 1906?   

George's book indicates that the property was "cleared" in conjunction with this event, so I'm thinking perhaps after, but am looking for clarification.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

I would have to say that  no one who knows much about the life and times of C.B. Macdonald would deny he had a large ego or deny that he sure did know how to use publicity and the press, but when it came to cultivating some of the biggest of the big-timers of his era in golf and in business he also was probably one of the best "net-workers" I have ever heard of.

One of the finest quick descriptions of what may've been his style and personality, in that vein, came from the really good recent history on Shinnecock by David Goddard.

In that book Goddard (who was at the time in the book concentrating on what he referred to as the "NGLA Effect on Shinnecock") said Macdonald could get his way by being alternately and in turns authoritative, dictatorial, heavy-handed, perhaps insulting, and then charming and even sentimental. And all perhaps in the course of some single issue, event or meeting.

It reminds me of another who constantly plied that combination and personality and obviously got a ton of mileage out of it during his long and probably impressive career----a man by the name of Lyndon Baines Johnson who was one of the most effective Majority Leaders and politicians this nation ever had as well as becoming the Vice President and then the President of the United States. In the latter he was not so successful ultimately as Macdonald ultimately was not either towards the end of his life. Both had meteoric careers in their chosen interests and both ultimately saw more saddness and perhaps depression and even tragedy at the end of their days than either probably deserved to see or to have.

This is why I am and have been so completely interested in C.B. Macdonald and his life and times. He was an immensely complicated man and he took some very large strides across the landscape he lived and worked and played in! I like immensely complicated people, or at least I am more fascinated by them than those who seemingly are not complex and complicated; I think they are so much more interesting than many of the others who are or were fairly monotone, perhaps quieter and/or more predictable!

[JMEvensky]

TEP,thanks for that response.

As someone who went to school in Austin and was surrounded by LBJ stuff,the CBM comparison makes some sense.I'd say LBJ was playing in a bigger ballpark,however.

Now to play a little in your ballpark,I once came within about 20 feet of running over Lady Bird as she was walking across the street from the LBJ Library.The Secret Service guys weren't particular understanding when I told them I was running late to the golf course.

Not exactly Fern/Dring level--but it's the best I've got.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not quite on topic, but years ago, I added nine holes to the Lady Bird Johnson Golf Course, in Fredericksburg, TX.

I was recently recalling that, using the unfortunate phrasing of "Back when I was doing Lady Bird Johnson...." which drew a big round of laughs and guffaws.

[JMEvensky]

Not quite on topic, but years ago, I added nine holes to the Lady Bird Johnson Golf Course, in Fredericksburg, TX.

I was recently recalling that, using the unfortunate phrasing of "Back when I was doing Lady Bird Johnson...." which drew a big round of laughs and guffaws.

Very funny--but a mental picture I could live without.

[TEPaul]

"Now to play a little in your ballpark,I once came within about 20 feet of running over Lady Bird as she was walking across the street from the LBJ Library.The Secret Service guys weren't particular understanding when I told them I was running late to the golf course.

Not exactly Fern/Dring level--but it's the best I've got."


Jeff:

You really like that Fern/Dring thing don't you? So you almost ran over Lady Bird, did you? Whoa, bummer----actually Big Bummer or even Double BIG Bummer with cheese and some bacon on top. Well one time down in Palm Beach I came within about 20 feet of running into JFK and I was going about sixty mph when I noticed him. I was so close and so surprised I just shut my eyes and swerved hard left and then right again when I thought I was passed his car. Frankly, even though my eyes were shut I still can't believe I missed him. But I did miss him and thank God because if I had hit him I might've killed him and me too. Both of course would've been a world class tragedy even though I'm not so sure I would say that about the guy he was with.

[TEPaul]

"Not quite on topic, but years ago, I added nine holes to the Lady Bird Johnson Golf Course, in Fredericksburg, TX.

I was recently recalling that, using the unfortunate phrasing of "Back when I was doing Lady Bird Johnson...." which drew a big round of laughs and guffaws."



JEEESUS, Mr. Jeffrey, you did the Lady Bird Johnson Golf Course?!?!? Well, now we know and I guess that explains everything. No wonder you get payed the big bucks and became a world famous golf course architect and the ultra famous PRESIDENT of the ASGCA.

These little "fates of history" are just so knee-slappin' fascinatin' and importuunt to know!

[Jim_Kennedy]

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

I'm not looking to exclude anything from any time period and still hope this thread can be a place where others can add relevant articles from any source.

Please feel free to add whatever you like and I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.

Mike
There were reports in American Golfer from December 1908, April 1909, May 1909, June 1909, and March 1910; a major article written by Whigham for Scribner's May 1909; and another important article in Harper's Weekly January 1910. Those are the most glaring omissions.

[JMEvensky]

Jim Kennedy,thanks for the explanation.

It's pretty amazing that a golf club which is now so private was started so publicly.

[Jim_Kennedy]

[TEPaul]

"It's pretty amazing that a golf club which is now so private was started so publicly."


Jeff:

I'm not sure what you have in mind when you say it's amazing that a golf club which is now so private was started so publicly. In other words, I don't know what you think "publicly" meant with the creation of a founding membership of NGLA. I do not know it for a fact but I would be completely surprised if Macdonald made that initial agreement (mentioned on the last few posts) public like in a newspaper or magazine. I do not think he would ever dream of doing something like that if he was after the type of founding members he seems to have been after and who he got.

An agreement like that one probably went out to a couple of hundred people at most and all of whom he probably knew somehow. One did not try to start a founding membership of clubs like that one or Pine Valley and such by putting a solicitation letter in a newspaper or magazine at least not if the originator was looking to get as founding members and other members the kinds of people they were looking for and actually got.

Macdonald's letter to generate founding members is an interesting one, just as the April 1, 1913 letter from Howard Perrin to get prospective members for Pine Valley was interesting but it most certainly did not go in the newspapers or some magazines. Those kinds of things are generally to a very carefully thought out selective group of people and that part really does take some time and effort and social net-working but again, Macdonald was very, very good at that with his social and business friends. Macdonald said he wrote that agreement in 1904 and I'm sure that may be true but it may not have actually gone out to a select group of people until he actually identified the land for the club which apparently happened in the beginning of 1906.

In Goddard's Shinnecock book he makes the point that the Shinnecock membership at that time were some pretty rich and powerful people but not compared to the membership that Macdonald generated at NGLA. Goddard said NGLA's membership was the creme de la creme, the virtual Captains of the Universe who just happened to like golf too, and that even though the founders and primary members of Shinnecock were wealthy they were more like the doctors and lawyers and people who actually ran the companies and such that much of the membership of NGLA either owned or completely controlled.

To me half the fun of figuring out clubs like these is to actually Google the histories and bios of many of the people who founded them. In the case of NGLA many of them will blow you away if you Google their histories and bios. The only club I'm aware of that may've had a concentration of Captains of the Universe more impressive than NGLA's founding members was the founding members of The Creek Club.

And who was the president of the corporation which owned the land of The Creek and leased it back to the club? Charles Blair Macdonald was at least until the end of 1926 where at The Links Club in New York at a Board meeting of The Creek Club the shit finally hit the fan and he resigned within two weeks using as his excuse that he wanted to go to Bermuda to write his book. And so he did. Within a couple of months after the feathers settled down for all concerned they actually made him an honorary member! 

[JMEvensky]

TEP,I was only suggesting that,looking at it from today's perspective,I find it interesting that NGLA's membership was highlighted in the newspapers.I wouldn't think today's members would want to see the same.

I couldn't reconcile a group of very wealthy guys with the idea of CBM needing to market the sale.I would've assumed that this could've been handled with a few well placed telegrams.The idea that NGLA was to be much more than a "local" golf club was news to me (see Jim Kennedy's comments).

I think I've told you that I also find this small circle of guys pretty interesting.One name in particular since he must be a friend's great grandfather.The great grandson wouldn't know which end of a golf club to hold.

[Mike Cirba]

 I don’t think CBM traded on their names in public, and I’ve never seen the 1904 agreement that was the basis for attracting them in print, outside of much later in his 1928 book. The inner workings of the club itself have never seemed to make their way into the public domain.
 

Jim,

For some reason the 1904 Founders Agreement that appears in Scotland's Gift is truncated.

In 1912 he sent another letter to the Founders, referring to what had been accomplished, but attaching a copy of the original agreement and referring to various sections of it.

After the sentence about proposing that each Founder would get "something" for their $1,000 investment, the last few paragraphs read, as follows;

"Assuming that we buy 200 acres, it would take about 110 acres to lay out the golf course proper, and five acres for a clubhouse and accessories.   We would give to each subscriber an acre and a half of ground in fee simple.   The ground in itself should be worth $500 an acre in the vicinity of a golf course of this character.  

"Further than this it is proposed that each subscriber receive a $1,000 3% debenture bond.   We would issue this so as to identify the holder, and make it a debenture bond so that it would not be a fixed charge.   This debenture bond must be held so long as one is a member of the Founders, and in case of selling, it can only be sold to one who would be elected a member of the Founders."

"This is simply a suggestion.   The details can be worked out later."

"As to the building of the golf course, it is well known that certain holes on certain links abroad are famous as being the best considering their various lengths.   It is the object of this association to model each of the eighteen holes after the most famous ones abroad, so that each hole would be representative and classic in itself."

"Mr. Charles B. Macdonald will take charge of this matter and associate himself with two qualified golfers in America, making a committee of three capable of carrying out this general scheme.   In the meantime, you are asked to subscribe and leave the matter entirely in his hands."
  

On other matters...
As regards the publication of the member's names, I find it somewhat odd that the one 1906 article written by HJ Whigham does in fact "name names", while an article from the same time period quoting Macdonald says the names of the Founders are being kept confidential at present.   Perhaps they were just not on the same page, or perhaps one was doing what the other wasn't able to, at least publicly.

A few other questions I'm interested in...

1) What if anything do we know about the 120 acre property next to Shinnecock that Macdonald offered to buy before procuring the 200+ acres that encloses the present course?

2) Do we know if Seth Raynor was hired to do his survey of the NGLA property (and then other extended duties) before or after it was secured by Macdonald in November 1906?  

George's book indicates that the property was "cleared" in conjunction with this event, so I'm thinking perhaps after, but am looking for clarification.

Thanks for any info anyone has that might clear this up.


Tom MacWood,

Please feel free to post those, or any other articles.

The ones I've posted here weren't easily searchable through most of the standard online databases like aafla.org, or Seagle's Electronic Library that the USGA provides.

If you think they contain important information that might not be widely generally known about the origins of NGLA, I'd certainly be happy for you to even link to them here so folks can benefit.

Thanks.

[Jim_Kennedy]

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