[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

CBM tells us he determined that the 2700 acres of Shinnecock Hills was his spot some weeks after Alvord's purchase.

He then went abroad in early 1906 and returned in June and started searching with a vengeance.

I think we've collectively mis-read what he tells us about the first offer...I think he made his first offer sometime after June, 1906.

[Andy Hughes]

Some images of Shinnecock Hills in the years just prior to CBM's purchase (paintings by William Merritt Chase). I don't get the sense the area was nearly as impenetrable as CBM implied. Or maybe those women and kids were made of sterner stuff than CBM and Whigham

[JESII]

Mike,

That could be, but it would mean that CBM left his ideal location unprotected for 9 months or more...from the fall of 1905 to at least June 1906.

Why would that be?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

His "ideal location" at Shinnecock Hills was somewhere within over 2,000 undeveloped acres.  

I think he had some time to consider things.

Andy,

CBM gives us the impression that things got a little bit hairier further northeast, but those are lovely paintings..thanks for sharing them.





by the way...Where's the highway?    

[JESII]

Priceless!

Did he bother to look at the 2,000+ acres before deciding it was to be his location?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

There were numerous factors that led to the decision that this new real-estate venture in Shinnecock Hills was going to be his ultimate location.

For years he talked about the sandy soil of Long Island being ideal, for years he talked about it needing to be close enough to NYC...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

This might help...it discusses and clarifies a LOT of things that have been debated here.

Incidentally, "the place" expected since "last spring" was on Long Island, specifically in the Shinnecock Hills region.

So, from the Brooklyn Daily Eage, on December 16th, 1906;

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Pretty amazing that I have to read that article several times to really get it, but that certainly seems to spell out the time frame we are all guessing at.

The first offer was rejected (probably in 1906) because prices had gone up too much to sell for golf course.  He moved to the distant neck, which they were willing to offer him at the original low price of $200 per acre because they had no immediate plans for it.

Not sure if he made an offer until 1906, but it sounds like he had some discussions in 1905 (a few weeks after Alvord bought the land, as reported)

I think we tend to suffer from time compression when looking at the old days.  Most land deals take a while to put together, not just days or weeks.  Even if starting in, say June 1906 when CBM returned, it took until April the next year to start construction, the EXACT same time frame that Merion took 4 years later.  Even some of the intermediate target dates - completing the land deal in December and presumably having the committee starting the routing in January (smiley) seem to be very, very similar.  I think the Merion committee really was channeling CBM!

Not to bring up a sore point with Patrick, but that seems to confirm that there was no highway there either, and no tunnel yet from NY that would even allow much NYC traffic out there.  Even then, train=2hours and car= 3 hours.  I bet many took the train for a long, long time.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

I think we're very copasetic here.   Thanks for your insight.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

This guy writes like a real insider who has been following it all along, even talking of suppressing information until an English paper leaked some stuff.  Was that the Whigham article?

As such, please note that he mentions Cold Springs Bay as a possible border, even at this late date.  It would seem from this that the land parcel really had NOT been identified down past the 450 acres, because NGLA ended up being all along the east boundary, and never touched CS Bay.

And, it once again puts to rest the issue of whether houses were planned on club land.

In a non related discussion last night with friends, they mentioned a mutual friend who just liked to argue, an old philosophy major in college.  One person noted that the arguments usually consisted of a historic figure writing "X" and the arguers then telling everyone that "he didn't mean X".  Does that sound familiar here?

Here is the most likely timeline - CBM finds conditions for the project become favorable in 1905.  He approaches Alvord, who agrees to sell some of his 2100 acres at bulk prices of $200 per acre.  There is so much land and water frontage, CBM feels there is no rush, and heads off to England.

When he returns in June 1906, he offers to buy some land on the south side of Cold Springs Bay he had eyed.  Alvord tells him that the area is getting hot and the price has gone up.  However, he says he is still willing to sell the distant land of the neck at the same price they had agreed to.

[JESII]

Jeff,

In that last hypothetical there, I'm curious...do you also envision CBM holding his ankles? Or did this happen over a fallen tree like in Deliverence? Seriously!

As I asked Mike, why would CBM let the best land sit for a year if he had an agreement to purchase 200 acres at a good price? All that can happen is he loses the best land for a variety of reasons. Do you think he really needed to go back to GB to select the exact plot within the greater 2,000 acres?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I read your last post as you having a few things mixed up. And no, you exagerate. It was all just business.  

After getting the property in 1905, it also had to take Alvord some time to survey, hire Olmstead, plan, market, get the process of development going, with all that entails.

I actually get the impression that CBM, who concieved the idea for the ideal course around then, approached Alvord in 1905 and they sort of had a general agreement on land, because there was plenty of it, and it would take more than a year to develop out.  I have to believe that after purchasing 2100 acres, they would want to get some cash flow going with a large parcel quick land sale that didn't compete with their own plans, and would even enhance it.  The practice of a developer buying a large parcel, and then selling off a distant chunk for immediate cash flow is still common.

How do you say he let his land sit a year?  I think he did general studies of the whole area in 1905, went to Britain, and came back and narrowed it down in June 1906 when he returned, as the newspaper article says.  (Unless you interpret "last spring" as written in Dec 1906 to be, say, March 1905?)

He offered to buy some land along Cold Springs Bay in June 1906, based on earlier discussions, but was told that plans were too far along, real estate was heating up, etc.  Not held over a barrel, because I am sure they wanted NGLA as the premier course, right in their back yard.  If values had gone up, I think it was a nice offer to still sell at $200 per acre a year later, as long as they worked together mutually for benefit - using unplatted land, preserving access, etc.

I know that waiting a year and going to GBI seems a bit odd, but again, he wanted to study the holes first, and there were over 2000 acres of very slow selling (when he left) land, and miles of water frontage.  Given it would take ten years even today to develop that much land, he had little risk in losing out, not to mention maybe Montauk and southern CT would still be options.

This article just confirms CBM's cryptic remarks about wanting the land only if it could be obtained reasonably.  There was at least some doubt in his mind in June 1906 that it would be possible.  I think both parties wanted NGLA there, if it could be worked out.

[JESII]

I would love to read that article in better print because yes, I think we have significantly different interpretations on what was said there.

For starters, it implies there are real estate negotiations going on by June 1906.

Also, the increasing real estate values referred to in that article are those closer to New York City, hence the statement..."a distant location for the links was imperative".

[DMoriarty]

Does anyone remember the protracted discussions about whether Hugh Wilson's study trip was before or after he laid out Merion according to the plan chosen by CBM?   I had explained the correct timing of the trip and offered evidence of this a long time ago, sometime in or around 1906.  But rather than reconsidering Merion's history in light of this new information, Mike and his buddies stuck to their guns and refused to accept the new paradigm.   For YEARS Mike tried to rewrite the factual record.  The records were hopelessly flawed and mistaken and illegible, he said.  "Hugh I. Wilson" of the same age from Philadelphia couldn't possibly be our Hugh Wilson.  The letter "I" was no longer the letter "I" and "H" not "H." Hugh Wilson was a British businessman on a world tour.   Hugh Wilson traveled abroad to study architecture via Argentina.   Hugh Wilson's friends were to rich and powerful for his name to appear on a manifest.   He would say anything to avoid honestly considering the facts.

When it had finally become impossible for even him to deny that Wilson traveled abroad in 1912, Mike abandoned one sinking ship for the next.  This time he and his buddies simply created a fictional second trip out of whole cloth.  If Wilson traveled abroad in 1912, then there must have been an earlier trip.  The real trip. Never mind that absolutely zero evidence existed of a second trip.  Never mind that nothing in the record even suggested one.   Never mind that, if timelined, Wilson's own statement confirmed that his study trip couldn't have occurred until 1912.  Mike was not going to let little things like the facts get in the way of his beliefs.   So he circled back rehashed all the same stuff and again began finding his Hugh Wilson's everywhere but where he was.

Why am I reminding you all of Mike's time consuming and pointless efforts to mold the factual record to his liking?    Because he is doing the exact same thing here.  

The October articles aren't that difficult to understand but because they don't fit in with Mike's preconceptions he will scour the earth and try every avenue to misrepresent them.    They are positively unreliable, he claimed.  They refer to the 120 acre offer, he explained.  They involved an offer for land on the other side of he canal, he guessed.   And when all this failed he simply created a fictional scenario of another site where CBM was so far along that he maps created and had sent them abroad for comment!    

Never mind that no evidence exists that such a site was ever considered.  
- Never mind that the property was STRETCHING ALONG PECONIC BAY.  
- Never mind that Mikes fantasy plot is in the same active development where CBM had already tried to buy land, but was rejected.  
- Never mind that while CBM discussed the other possibilities for the course he didn't mention this one.  
- Never mind that this was announced in the papers as purchased and they were far enough along to have maps sent out, yet CBM didn't bother to mention it.   

This is the same game as before.  Obfuscate and confuse the record.  Pursue every tangental line of reasoning but ignore the obvious interpretation.  Anything to avoid honestly considering the impact of the October articles on his beliefs.  

MIKE ALREADY HAD ACCEPTED THE OCT. ARTICLES WERE ABOUT THE SEBONACK POINT PROPERTY, but then he realized this would kill his claim so he circled back.  Unfortunately, once Mike finally accepts that these October articles are referring to the Sebonack Neck site ,he will undoubtedly figure out a way try to jump to the next sinking ship.  Anything to avoid honestly reconsidering his position.

_______________________________________________________

Jeff Brauer,

It really doesn't matter, but if you read the above article in the context of the other articles addressing the same subject, you might come to different conclusions.    While Mike doesn't do us the courtesy of saying so, I believe this article is from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, from a day or so after the deal had been announced in the Sun.  So December 16th or 17th, 1906.    

It looks to me that the author gleaned his basic information from the previous NY Sun article, and then filled in a bunch of stuff that the Eagle had previously reported.  Some of it comes directly out of the 1904 letter (as did a substantial portion of the Sun article.

In a few related articles the reporter (or reporters) from the Eagle seem very intent on presenting himself as an insider.  Judging from the fact that he was obviously scooped on this one, I have my doubts that this was the case.

________________________________________

Also Jeff, you described the land as stretching along Cold Springs Bay.   I know you hate these little details, but that is not what the articles said.  It STRETCHED ALONG PECONIC BAY TO A WESTERLY  POINT NEAR THE INLET.  This fictional site of Mike's certainly does not stretch along Peconic Bay to a westerly point near the inlet.

_________________________________________________

Plus, by Mike's convoluted logic, this Eagle article could not possibly have been about the actual NGLA site!.    
- It describes deal as involving 200 acres, not 205.  
- It describes the property as out there on Sebonic Neck.  Part of NGLA isn't really on Sebonack Neck.

Applying Cirbaian logic, this means that this article could not possibly be the actual NGLA deal!   There must have been different land with an Alps and Cape somewhere.   A fourth site!

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,


As to the first parcel offer, its just sort of a historical tidbit, since it has nothing to do with the eventual property selected and developed.   I do disagree with him that there was some third parcel. 

In some ways, Mikes last yellow post makes sense as the first offer because of the water frontage, train station location and, because it could use the Shinny Inn.  I did notice that it says Peconic Bay in Scotland's Gift and some articles, which would put it well west of the canal, and away from other assets, and I don't recall the exact borders of the Peconic Realty land. 

As usual with these types of things, it seems as if whichever theory you go with, there are some unexplained descrepancies (often explained away as flawed articles, unless we happen to support the position, in which case articles are golden and memories of participants are flawed).  At least in this case, history doesn't suffer because its a what if.

I really don't know how much the Eagle article plagarized, but the mention of an inside discussion with the secretary, and agreement to keep it silent seems like he had some special inside info, AND, almost all the article came to pass.  If the boundaries weren't set, at the time the deal might have been for 200 acres at $200 for $40K and only later expanded to 205 after the routing was set.  Even if a mistake, I am not one who says one mistake invalidates the whole article.

As to Merion,  no one denies you blew the lid off the Wilson trip occurring later than most believed or reported.  It, too is one of those things that is at odds with other well known facts concerning that situation, but which is not a part of this thread.

To be honest, the only thing that truly offends me on this thread is Patrick's ideas that either course was routed in a day, because there is nothing to suggest they routed themselves. Not only that, but if word gets out that courses route themselves, I fear present day gca's will have to lower fees even more.......

[Niall C]

Jeff,

I'll hold my hand up to picking up on something Mike wrote which to me suggested that he didn't believe CBM could have routed the course in a day. I'm not saying he did one way or not, I suggested that it was possible. Are you saying that it wasn't possible or likely that he came up with something basic in a day ? Something that no doubt got tweaked or even materially redone but would have at least established the general routing and allowed them to work out roughly what parcel of land they wanted ?

Not trying to suggest your job is easy (insert smiley) but do you not think a basic routing would have been possible ?

Niall

[mike_malone]

 How was all of this affected by the Panic of '07 ?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I do find it very funny that you use the one fact you did get right in your Merion essay as supposed proof that I'm always wrong.  

As to the rest of what you just wrote there, I have no idea what you're saying or why you won't answer any of the questions put to you over the course of the past few weeks.   I've already told you why I've come full circle...it was from finding information on the boundaries of Shinnecock GC at that time that would have made it physically IMPOSSIBLE to be located EAST of the NGLA purchase, which is something I'm very surprised you didn't know.

Instead of sticking to the topic at hand, which evidently everyone else but Patrick seems to find interesting and worthy of disucssion and exploration, you come in here shooting at me personally again from the hip.   Why not just stick to the facts and evidence under review and try a more helpful approach?

And for kicks, exactly what information do you think the Eagle reporter stole from The Sun?    Please, enlighten us.  

My....for someone who says others are speculating, you sure are the Pot calling the Kettle black and it's getting really old.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Niall,



Based on my experiences of routing hundreds of courses (only 50 of which have been built) I would say possible, but not likely.

Based on the historic record saying they rode if for three days, and then went back and earnestly studied the contours, or the actual timeline from June 1906 return from GBI to April 1907 construction, I simply fail to find anything that says that happened.

In fact, when CBM says "Strange as it may seem, we looked back to find the Redan" it doesn't tell me that holes are discovered quickly, it tells me that "Holy Cow, we got lucky on that one hole and found it quickly."  How do you read that?

[Andy Hughes]

Mike, do you have page 186 of Scotland's Gift handy?

[Mike Cirba]

Niall,

Besides, CBM tells us in Dec 1906 he was going to spend the next several months at it....not sure why some don't believe him.

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

This one?   What about it?

[Andy Hughes]

Nothing in particular, just wanted to see it and don't have my book here.  Thanks.



PS There is a Dean Alvord/Devereaux Emmett connection!

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

Please don't get me started down that road.   I know you're just trying to tempt me and I'm....going to resi....re....resist..

Lord knows humor is ill-tolerated here these days.   

[Andy Hughes]

OK, not related to NGLA but interesting nonetheless: http://www.belleterre.us/History/DeanAlvordandtheGloriousYears/tabid/97/Default.aspx

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