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Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2225 on: June 01, 2011, 08:51:35 AM »
Mike,

Uh oh, I got another email from Wayne.

You weren't copied.

But it was informative.

Wayne informed me that the ONLY reason he tunes in to GCA.com is to see how I lie and disparage him.

Do you buy that ?

Me neither.

I wish someone would cite where I lied.
Maybe you could "channel" for him.
And, I'd like to know how I've disparaged him.
I won't repeat the names he's called me because it serves no purpose, but it's clear that he doesn't understand the term "double standard" or "do as I say, not as I do"

And don't forget, they always have the option of returning to GCA.com  ;D

I wonder if the Merionettes are familiar with email blocks ?  ?  ?

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2226 on: June 01, 2011, 09:22:36 AM »
Patrick,

Calm yourself, I have nothing to do with Tom or Wayne but if you really wanted them to come back to this site you should have taken a much different approach because I think you've lopped off those ties for good...that's what I'm reading anyway.

Now, back to facts.

And to jog your memory, here is the SHOCKING RESULTS of CBM's first of two visits to Ardmore, this one to view a proposed site for a golf course.

Nine months later, Hugh Wilson's Merion Committee would travel to NGLA for an overnight stay.   Wilson and the MCC Minutes tell us that they spent the first night viewing CBM's drawings, maps, and photos of great holes abroad and learning about their principles.   The next day they viewed Macdonald's applications of those principles in person while touring his new golf course.  

Merion's Committee had been working on various plans for their golf course before the NGLA visit and after returning the MCC Minutes tell us they created five different plans.

A month after that, CBM returned for the second and LAST time to Ardmore, where the MCC Minutes tell us he reviewed those plans, and viewed the ground, and helped the Merion Committee select the best of those plans.   The selected plan required Merion to purchase 3 acres beyond what they had originally secured of the Johnson Farm land, which was approved by the Merion Board of Governors later that month.


That's it....

This is much ado about nada.   There is not a single shred of evidence of any additional contacts, messages, phone calls, or correspondence.   NONE.

By the way, Patrick, why don't you follow-up and ask David to transcribe the new "smoking gun", the now infamous Whigham Budget?   Why doesn't he trust all of us to read it with our own eyes??

I need a good laugh today...thanks.  ;D


New York, June 29, 1910
Horatio G. Lloyd, Esq.
c/o Messrs. Drexel and Co.
Philadelphia, Pa

Dear Mr. Lloyd:

Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features.  The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified.

We both think that your soil will produce a firm and durable turf through the fair green quickly.  The putting greens of course will need special treatment, as the grasses are much finer.

The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying.  So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House.  The opinon that a long course is always the best course has been exploded.  A 6000 yd. course can be made really first class, and to my mind it is more desirable than a 6300 or a 6400 yd. course, particularly where the roll of the ball will not be long, because you cannot help with the soil you have on that property having heavy turf.  Of course it would be very fast when the summer baked it well.

The following is my idea of a  6000 yard course:

One 130 yard hole
One 160    "
One 190    "
One 220 yard to 240 yard hole,
One 500 yard hole,
Six 300 to 340 yard holes,
Five 360 to 420    "
Two 440 to 480    "

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for analysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.

We enjoyed our trip to Philadelphia very much, and were very pleased to meet your Committee.

With kindest regards to you all, believe me,

Yours very truly,

(signed)  Charles B. Macdonald

In soil analysis have the expert note particularly amount of carbonate of lime.




« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 09:46:37 AM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2227 on: June 01, 2011, 09:25:55 AM »
Mike,

I forgot, Wayne claims that the other reason he's emailing me is because I won't return his phone calls.

I want to state, unequivocally, that I've NEVER failed to return a phone call from. Wayne or TEPaul.

The other FACT is that Wayne has NOT called me in quite some time.

Another fact is that in one of these earlier email exchanges I invited the Merionettes to call me.

I would be only too happy to take their call, as I would yours or anyone else's

My dad taught me to ALWAYS return phone calls, good, bad or neutral.

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2228 on: June 01, 2011, 09:52:53 AM »
Mike,

Thank you for posting that.


Pat,

If CBM were an active leading participant in the design of Merion's new course I would think his "tone" would have been a great deal more inclusive. He is clearly discussing each item as the their's..."the land you propose buying"..."the most difficult problem you have"..."it would be wise for your committee to confer with the Baltusrol committee". In my opinion, as of June 29, 1910 CBM did not feel he was designing Merion.




David,

I'll address your post in the next post.



JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2229 on: June 01, 2011, 10:19:52 AM »

Jim Sullivan,

1. Your recollection of the circumstances surrounding Wayne's exit from the website is quite different than mine.   

2. The mention of Whigham providing a cost estimate was NOT in the posted transcription of CBM's letter from late June 1910.

3. Regarding the routing, I agree that CBM/HJW were not solely responsible for routing the course.  It seems most likely to me that they would have worked off of Barker's routing to come up with their rough routing, and then Francis/Lloyd modified the rough routing with the swap to make the holes in the corner fit, and then the details were worked out at NGLA and subsequently.  If you recall, CBM mentioned that without a contour map CBM and HJW could not say for sure whether the course would fit on the land.  They thought it would fit if Merion added land behind the clubhouse (likely the additional three acres for which you guys are searching,) but it apparently was going to be a tight squeeze. 
Apparently Merion couldn't make the last five holes fit, thus necessitating the swap.

That all said, I don't see it is all or nothing and don't understand how you can definitively exclude CBM/HJW from the routing process based on the swap. You stated:  "Regardless, if CBM had participated in actually creating the routing and couldn't figure out a way to actually fit the holes on the property as they are now, well then he doesn't get credit."  Really?  Such an all or nothing requirement seems rather arbitrary and penal to me. Hypothetically, what if CBM and Raynor had explained the routing they envisioned to the committee in June but when Merion tried map this out, it didn't quite fit, so Merion swapped land to lengthen 15 and 16 (and maybe 14) to make it fit? If this was the case then how could you say that CBM and Raynor were not among those responsible for the routing?

4.  Regarding your suggestion that we should be discussing the actual holes, I keep throwing them in but Mike doesn't seem to be capable of discussing them in an intelligent and productive manner, and Niall and Adam did not answer my questions. While I am glad to discuss them, maybe it is for the best that the other side has been unwilling or unable to do so.  I don't know that this is the right format, and I am pretty sure this is not the right thread.   
   
That said, what is there to talk about, really? CBM's fingerprints are all over the course in terms of its design, Merion tried to build a Redan, an Alps, a Road, a double plateau, a biarritz oriented double plateau, and an Eden Green.  Again, there are more, but shouldn't that be more than enough?  There were only four or five actual "templates" at NGLA (not coincidentally some of these same holes as at Merion.) So how many typical CBM concepts and combinations must we find at Merion before we acknowledge that Merion attempted  to build a course based upon CBM's ideas?

5.  Like Mike, your reading of the Hugh Wilson chapter is rather selective.  He not only wrote about how CBM taught them the principles, he also wrote about how CBM taught them how to apply those principles on Merion's site.   If there is any doubt, look to Alan Wilson, who is quite clear that CBM was providing valuable help planning the layout of Merion East at both NGLA and on the subsequent visit to Merion. 

6.  As I explain above, Mike was just guessing when he claims that it was a "rough guess at the total dollar amount"  and he guessed wrong. Whigham provided a separate estimate for preparing the land and for the irrigation, and since we are not privy to his communications with Lesley's committee we don't know the amount of detail beyond this.  Why would Lesley report it to the board, if Lesley thought it was nothing an unworthy and rough guess? 

7.  Regarding the "tone" of CBM's letter, I think you may be reading your own subjective feelings into the letter. At the very least, don't you think you are drawing a rather broad conclusion about the relationship based on what is at best a speculative interpretation? This was a letter after CBM's and HJW's first visit. It is reasonable to judge the entirety of the continuing relationship based on a letter at the opening? We know a few things that bring your conclusion into question.
-  According to Merion, CBM and HJW "c[a]me over from New York" to help them. Why would they they have bothered if your reading of the "tone" is correct?
-  And CBM and HJW obviously continued to be involved throughout the planning.  Again, if your reading of the tone is correct, then why would they have bothered?  It sure seems like they gave  Merion plenty of their time and trouble, and I am not sure that is consistent with your reading of the "tone."
-  Perhaps you should compare the "tone" of this letter to the tone of CBM's later letter to Wilson about agronomy matters (after the course was designed.)
8.  You make a number of statements about the evolution of course with which I might not agree, among them your statement that "the Road Hole green was pretty soon altered to reduce it's implication."   Here is a photo of Bobby Jones on the green from 1924.  Note that orientation is as before and the expanded bunker is still very much playing the role of a hell bunker. 




1 - Fair enough...not something I'm interested in debating. I consider Wayne a friend, and I respect what you're doing on this topic so I'd rather stay out of those details.

2 - I guess you're right, I remember it being referenced at some point but can't remember the setting.

3 - I was not trying to paint an all or nothing scenario. As you know, I think the basic routing work went on in late summer and fall of 1910 prior to the cor land purchase. I also thin it's highly likely during CBM's visit they sketched some ideas of how the holes should flow. His mention of getting a little more land near the clubhouse makes that case for me. While I don't know for certain where that "little more land" is, the three acres behind the clubhouse and the three additional acres menioned in the April Board minutes are not the same because they obviously would have figured out in the meantme that the three acres of railroad land behind the clubhouse were not for sale. My suspicion is that the 3 acres referred to in April were just a more accurate remeasure of what they were buying once they had their course completely planned out...whether it was acreage devoted to roadspace or not, I think they had the general idea of buying 120 acres, subtracted 3 because of the leased railroad land and by the time they worked out the course it was 120 acrss plus the 3 of railroad land.

4 - Nobody is denying that CBM's fingerprints are all over the course, even Mike's position is just to take the opposite of your's and Pat's. You guys are suggesting that because they tried to build a handful of templates AND CBM was involved in some capacity it means CBM was calling the shots. That's as extreme as Mike suggesting that if Wilson had seen a double plateau somewhere else, that might have been his inspiration. Both arguments are seriously flawed. The source documents clearly suggest that the committee spent time learning about these template holes...that alone is almost definitely the inspiration for what they put in the Board Approved Plan AND what they initially put in the ground. That does not imply calling the shots!

5 - I forget what I said to diminish/discount CBM's efforts. I figure the committee spent their time at NGLA and back at Merion looking at and learning about the strategies and the construction techniques of a good number of template type holes...I also figure they would have their contour map with them and the topic would have been specifically where these holes could potentially go on the property.

6 - What does it say?

7 - I think they were friendly with at least a coupleof the committee members or other Merion members and were doing alot of things (for free) in alot of places to help develop the game of golf in the States...why wouldn't they come in to provide the benefit of their experiences? To suggest that Merion woulf have asked them to design their golf course and never once mention that fact is a much more eggregious claim IMO!

Can you post CBM's later letter to Wilson about agronomy matters? I don't recall seeing it. If you want it privat, send an IM and I'll respect the privacy.

8 - When I said the Road Hole, I believe I meant the Road Bunker, I'll go check and edit, but if it's enlarged and shifted to the left that's clearly a reduction of the imitation of the original, no?  I do agree that your handful of different images of this hole over the last couple weeks has certainly proved to me that a real effort at a Road Hole was made...but I also think it's highly possible for someone to explain the key features to me on paper and then show them to me on the ground the next day an let me get after it...it is very possible.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2230 on: June 01, 2011, 11:38:55 AM »
On July 1, 1910, two days after receiving CBM's SHOCKING letter, Robert Lesley and the Merion Site Committee reported the following to the Merion Board of Governors;

Lesley first mentions that Mr. Whigham estimated the cost of putting the ground into play would be $25,000, and irrigation might cost $5,000.

Lesley goes on to say that he feels that would be a very liberal estimate, as Samuel Heebner at Whitemarsh Valley spent $12,000 the first year, and Heebner believes that he will need to spend $8,000 over the next two years, requiring a total of $20,000 for three years.

He then says that an outside estimate of the cost of doing ALL the work required to put the PROPERTY in condition, INCLUDING work on the CLUBHOUSE, and ROAD BUILDING, etc., would be between $30,000 and $40,000, but closer to the former.

THAT is the supposed smoking gun, the vaunted and much-ballyhooed "Whigham Budget".    :P

So rather than accept Whigham's estimate, as David told us, Merion instead rejected his estimate as overkill.

The exact wording is in the Paul/Morrison book, so if David feels I've misrepresented what it says he can certainly quote it verbatim here as he has a copy.

But about the contents, I'm not sure why any of this should surprise anyone?   ::)

Hugh Wilson wrote in 1916 that not only had they gone to CBM and Whigham for advice, but also said they he/they collected all the information they could from local committees and greenkeepers.  

Similarly, contemporaneous articles said that not only did Wilson go abroad in his studies, but had also studied all of the best courses in this country.   The bi-level and/or multi-level green was NOT something introduced to this country by CBM.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:43:36 AM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2231 on: June 01, 2011, 11:44:48 AM »

Similarly, contemporaneous articles said that not only did Wilson go abroad in his studies, but had also studied all of the best courses in this country.   The bi-level and/or multi-level green was NOT something introduced to this country by CBM.



Mike,

Are you actually arguing that CBM had no influence on the original hole designs?

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2232 on: June 01, 2011, 11:49:54 AM »
Jim,

Not at all.   Only that the Merion Committee's experiences and influences were broader than that and citing a specific multi-level green as evidence of CBM and calling it a Biarritz at a time when CBM had yet to build a Biarritz green himself is simply the type of egregious over-reaching and overkill that I'm challenging.

Wilson and the others were well-familiar with what Travis had done at Garden City, for instance.  

Clearly, the Committee was hoping to build some template holes, no question, and after viewing CBM's versions at NGLA I'm sure they were excited to try some themselves.

Personally, I think the record shows they quickly became less enamored of trying to make the holes fit the land instead of visa versa and the idea was largely abandoned, except in principle.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:52:23 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2233 on: June 01, 2011, 12:28:09 PM »
Mike Cirba,  

1.  Whigham's Estimates.  I answered Patrick's question above, but here it is again, this time with quotation marks and bolds so you don't miss it again.  After CBM and HJW's trip in June 1910, Lesley reported, "Mr. Whigham estimated that the cost of putting the ground into condition for play would be $25,000.00, and the introduction of water $5000.00, making a very liberal estimate . . .." This is almost exactly what I wrote above.  
     As even you can see, your claim that Whigham provided a only single dollar amount is inaccurate.  Not only that, but you are just guessing as to the level of detail (or lack thereof) Whigham provided to Lesley.  You weren't privy to their communication.  All we know is that, at the very least, Whigham provided a estimate of what it would cost to get the ground ready for play and an estimate for the cost of installing irrigation.
     As for your demands on me to post the parts not concerning Whigham's estimate, you are just playing games. Otherwise you'd have posted the excerpt yourself instead of demanding that I do your work for you.  I am not your research assistant.  You certainly aren't shy about shilling for the other Merionettes, so why don't you post the entire excerpt of the report from their Faker pdf?

2.  Merion's Road Hole.   You are back to misrepresenting the facts, for transparent reasons.  The Evans article you posted indicated that the bunker was expanded and plateau extended in 1916, not 1915 as you claim above.   You fudge the year because you know that, on July 6, 1915 the same paper had described the hole as "a reproduction of the famous "road hole," the 17th hole at St. Andrews-Across-the-Pond."
   Also, the same paper later noted that the work did not actually take place until the fall of 1916 and early 1917. Compare the photos from 1916 with the photos from 1924 and you can see the changes to the bunker, and you can also see that even after the expansion it was still a road hole.  
    As for your question, this hole was a Road Hole from the beginning, which is why the put the tee behind the corner Your claims last week that they moved the tee back there and completely redesigned this hole before the Amateur were just more misrepresentations.
__________________________________________


THAT is the supposed smoking gun, the vaunted and much-ballyhooed "Whigham Budget".    :P

A typical Cirba ploy. He repeatedly pretends that I had treated the Whigham estimate as "a smoking gun" when I had not, and then has the nerve to deride it as a "supposed smoking gun."

Mike is the only one who called it that, and the only one who pretended it had been vaunted and much ballyhooed.

This is why we call him disingenuous. He is disingenuous, although that might be too kind a word for this kind of slime. He will try to twist anything and everything, no matter how absurd, to make his rhetorical point.    

Quote
So rather than accept Whigham's estimate, as David told us, Merion instead rejected his estimate as overkill.

They didn't "reject[] it as overkill" it at all.  It looks like they used the two estimates to set the range, and it looks like they ultimately went with the high end of the range.  Whigham estimated $30k ($25k + $5K,)  Heebner had spent $20k.   It looks like Lesley added $10k for the other stuff onto these and Lesley came up with $30K to $40k, "probably nearer to the former."  But despite Lesley's comment that he thought it would be nearer to the former, Merion ultimately went with the higher amount, $40k. (They ultimately negotiated 85k for the land and budgeted $40k for the rest, and planned to raise $125k.)

But this is all just Mike spinning his wheels with irrelevancies. My point was and is rather straight forward.  There was more early communication about creating the course that just what was in the letter.


Quote
The exact wording is in the Paul/Morrison book, so if David feels I've misrepresented what it says he can certainly quote it verbatim here as he has a copy.

Are you kidding me?  Mike scolds me for not producing a report from their book, and then has the nerve to rather loosely paraphrase it, and then scolds me again for not citing in verbatim.  

Mike is the Merionette. Let him post the excerpt of the report from the .pdf.

Quote
The bi-level and/or multi-level green was NOT something introduced to this country by CBM.

More typical Cirba.  State some misleading irrelevancy without any support whatsoever as if it means something.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 12:35:06 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2234 on: June 01, 2011, 01:17:12 PM »
David,

You wrote;

2.  Merion's Road Hole.   You are back to misrepresenting the facts, for transparent reasons.  The Evans article you posted indicated that the bunker was expanded and plateau extended in 1916, not 1915 as you claim above.   You fudge the year because you know that, on July 6, 1915 the same paper had described the hole as "a reproduction of the famous "road hole," the 17th hole at St. Andrews-Across-the-Pond."
  Also, the same paper later noted that the work did not actually take place until the fall of 1916 and early 1917. Compare the photos from 1916 with the photos from 1924 and you can see the changes to the bunker, and you can also see that even after the expansion it was still a road hole.  
    As for your question, this hole was a Road Hole from the beginning, which is why the put the tee behind the corner Your claims last week that they moved the tee back there and completely redesigned this hole before the Amateur were just more misrepresentations.


David,

NOBODY knows when they built the tee behind the fence and NOBODY knows when they built the bunkering scheme to make it play like a Road Hole.

You don't, I don't, Merion doesn't.

We DO KNOW that none of the early opening articles that cited the redan and alps and "eden green" mentioned the Road Hole.   None of them until 1915, as you mentioned.   And I did make a mistake about the year, remembering but failing to re-read that the article stated a number of changes had been done "last year".   I agree that it was early 1916, not 1915, but that wasn't intentional.

However, you are wrong when you say the work didn't get done until 1917.    You are misreading the 1917 article that refers to re-grassing the "6th green", which at that time was today's fifth hole.

We know that Evans wrote early in 1916 that "this year" work was done to enlarge the 3rd green, enlarge the left front bunker, and add a bunker in the driving area.

We can also clearly see that the work was indeed accomplished prior to the US Amateur in the fall of 1916 in this schematic, and we can see indeed that the holes were numbered differently back then.

And yes, it was a road hole, as I agreed with you years ago.   We just don't know when it became one.


Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2235 on: June 01, 2011, 01:22:34 PM »
David,

So you agree that Whigham did not provide Merion a "budget", and you agree as well that they didn't use his guesstimated numbers for their own estimate as you originally contended, correct?

You could have just said that and saved yourself a lot of typing.

As far as the hype around the Whigham Budget, you knew better yet let Patrick take it and run with it until I brought him back to reality today.   You would have thought he'd found an extra 30 yards off the tee!!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 01:32:13 PM by MCirba »

Niall C

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2236 on: June 01, 2011, 02:40:19 PM »
Quote from Patrick

"Niall, CBM studied courses in the UK an the U.S. for 38 years prior to setting foot on Merion.
His involvement with golf is legendary.
But, since you want to diminish his expertise and accomplishments, tell me, over the last 100 years how have his design principles and the courses he designed, routed and built held up ?

A century later NGLA is still a top 10 golf course.
How do you reconcile your position that CBM, and amateur, compares to the modern GCA ?
How does CBM's body of work compare to modern day architects ?
Will their courses remain in the top echelon of golf courses a century from now ?"

Patrick, firstly not looking to knock CBM who clearly had a huge impact on Amercian golf but trying to put his ability at that time into some sort of perspective for the benefit of assessing his potential imput into Merion. Yes, his involvement in golf is legendary, however most of that was in his playing and administrative roles.

When you say CBM had been studying architecture for 38 years, do you really mean that or do you mean he had been playing for 38 years and had an opinion on what constituted a good hole and what was a bad one ? To claim he had been studying gca for 38 years is a stretch when you think he spent his working life as a stockbroker and had many years when he went back to the US when he didn't play golf due to lack of courses. That hardly sounds like a guy who spent his life on the links developing ideas. Let me tell you I've been playing for 41 years (OK only 28 as an adult  :) ) and have tons of ideas about what constitutes a good feature/hole/course some of which I have developed in in exchanges on sites like this, or in discussion with other like minded souls but that does not make me a gca.

Patrick, let me ask you a question, if CBM was magically transported into todays world, who would you choose to design your course him or TD ?

Niall


DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2237 on: June 01, 2011, 09:09:15 PM »
Mike Cirba wrote:
Quote
NOBODY knows when they built the tee behind the fence and NOBODY knows when they built the bunkering scheme to make it play like a Road Hole.

Here again Mike seems to think that I need to prove to an absolute certainty that Merion did NOT redesign this hole in 1913-1915, or else he can just assume that it must have been changed during this time period.  This is yet another attempt to refute the highly probable with the barely possible.There is no evidence this hole had changed at all during between 1913 and July 1915.  If Mike wants to claim that there were changes, let him prove it.

Mike posted a sketch of the layout and claims it proves the changes were made prior to 1916.  The trouble is I posted the photo from 1916 that contradicts the sketch.  

So you agree that Whigham did not provide Merion a "budget", and you agree as well that they didn't use his guesstimated numbers for their own estimate as you originally contended, correct?

You could have just said that and saved yourself a lot of typing.

Typical Mike. He is again blatantly misrepresenting what I wrote. Disingenuous.  

Quote
As far as the hype around the Whigham Budget, you knew better yet let Patrick take it and run with it until I brought him back to reality today.   You would have thought he'd found an extra 30 yards off the tee!!

Patrick's comments were about whether the Merionettes were playing games with this particular report.  I don't monitor the board like Mike does, but I soon as I saw Patrick's post t I told him I wasn't sure whether they had previously posted it or not.  Mike took it in a totally different direction.
__________________________________________________

Niall wrote:
Quote
Patrick, firstly not looking to knock CBM who clearly had a huge impact on Amercian golf but trying to put his ability at that time into some sort of perspective for the benefit of assessing his potential imput into Merion. Yes, his involvement in golf is legendary, however most of that was in his playing and administrative roles.

Niall, I am not even sure where one would begin to address this statement, but for now let me just say that I believe you may be drastically underestimating CBM's importance to golf course architecture in America.  

Also, I suspect you may be overestimating the state of knowledge of those at Merion with whom CBM and HJW were working.  Wilson said they only knew as much as the average club member, and in 1910 in America that meant they didn't know much.  Wilson wrote they learned more from CBM than they had learned in all their years golfing. Do you think that if you spent a few days with Tom Doak you would learn more than you had learned in all your years golfing?

Quote
Patrick, let me ask you a question, if CBM was magically transported into todays world, who would you choose to design your course him or TD ?

Not sure I can explain why, but this hypothetical strikes me as somewhat ironic given Doak's recent creation of Old Macdonald using the fundamental ideas underlying CBM's work.  I am pretty sure that the course was not a homage to CBM's record as a player or an administrator.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 09:12:02 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2238 on: June 01, 2011, 09:49:08 PM »
1 - Fair enough...not something I'm interested in debating. I consider Wayne a friend, and I respect what you're doing on this topic so I'd rather stay out of those details.

I understand.  I just wanted to put it on the record that I disagree with you on this without getting into it.

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2 - I guess you're right, I remember it being referenced at some point but can't remember the setting.

3 - I was not trying to paint an all or nothing scenario. As you know, I think the basic routing work went on in late summer and fall of 1910 prior to the cor land purchase. I also thin it's highly likely during CBM's visit they sketched some ideas of how the holes should flow. His mention of getting a little more land near the clubhouse makes that case for me. While I don't know for certain where that "little more land" is, the three acres behind the clubhouse and the three additional acres menioned in the April Board minutes are not the same because they obviously would have figured out in the meantme that the three acres of railroad land behind the clubhouse were not for sale. My suspicion is that the 3 acres referred to in April were just a more accurate remeasure of what they were buying once they had their course completely planned out...whether it was acreage devoted to roadspace or not, I think they had the general idea of buying 120 acres, subtracted 3 because of the leased railroad land and by the time they worked out the course it was 120 acrss plus the 3 of railroad land.

We may be saying the same thing here.  I agree with the part of your post I underlined.  I agree that there are two different "three acres;" the three acres RR land and then three acres when the finally got around to doing an accurate measure of what they measure.

But when Lesley referred to "acquiring three acres additional" in April, I assume he was still talking about the RR land.  Here is what he reportedly wrote:
On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to any inland course in the world. In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to acquire 3 acres additional.

I may be wrong, but I think he means that in order to do what CBM wants us to do, we need to add the three acres near the clubhouse.  And the same day the board reportedly approved the purchase of "about three acres additional to cost about $7500.00." I think this was the RR land, but they ended up leasing it, not purchasing it.  

Should be easy enough to determined by looking at the purchases. I can't remember if they ever actually paid $7500 for the additional three acres that we think was due to a  more accurate measurement.  What did they end up paying for the 120 acres?  It wasn't $92.5K (85k+7.5k), was it?  I don't remember offhand.

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4 - Nobody is denying that CBM's fingerprints are all over the course, even Mike's position is just to take the opposite of your's and Pat's. You guys are suggesting that because they tried to build a handful of templates AND CBM was involved in some capacity it means CBM was calling the shots. That's as extreme as Mike suggesting that if Wilson had seen a double plateau somewhere else, that might have been his inspiration. Both arguments are seriously flawed.

I disagree with your statement that no one is denying CBM's extensive influence.  The Merionettes have been denying that CBM's fingerprints are on the course for years.  While it is foolish for them to continue to do so, they don't seem to have stopped.  Look at Mike's ridiculous speculation regarding "multi-teir greens" and his lame attempts to distance Merion's Road hole from CBM.  

Perhaps we are still caught up on the "calling the shots" terminology.  Let me see if I can find some middle ground.

CBM and HJW didn't work for Merion.  They did not build the course for Merion.  They were expert advisors, and advised Merion on what land to acquire and how to create a first class course on that land. Merion could accept or reject CBM's and HJW's advice as Merion saw fit. So in a very real sense it was Merion who ultimately "called the shots" in that they they were not formally bound in any way to follow the expert advice of CBM and HJW.  

This is why in his letter CBM wrote "your course," "your committee," and the land "you propose" buying.  It was not CBM's course and he wasn't going to build them their course and he wasn't going to grow grass for them.  He was an expert advisor.  He would tell them how, but they would ultimately build it themselves.

That said, CBM and HJW were among the foremost experts on this sort of thing, and had just pioneered a rather novel approach to creating first class golf courses.   And Merion recognized the value of CBM's and HJW's expert advice and acted accordingly.  In other words, they listened to CBM and HJW for the same reason they brought in CBM and HJW in the first place, and the same reason they traveled to NGLA to work on the layout plan, and the same reason that the had CBM and HJW come back down to Merion to choose the final plan.  Merion wanted the best and these guys were the best. They were the foremost authorities and Merion had great respect for this and followed their advice. That is why CBM's fingerprints all over the course.  Because Merion was deferring to their authority on these matters. That is all I mean when I say that CBM and HJW were calling the shots. Merion recognized them as authorities on these matters and deferred to their opinion.  Just like patients/clients follow advice from their doctors and lawyers.

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The source documents clearly suggest that the committee spent time learning about these template holes...that alone is almost definitely the inspiration for what they put in the Board Approved Plan AND what they initially put in the ground. That does not imply calling the shots!

They did spend time learning about the concepts from CBM.  Wilson would have needed to have some understanding of these concepts to build his versions of the holes.  But if he was only was interested in the general concepts he could have simply read Whigham's Scribner's Article and CBM's Outing article.  Why go all the way to NGLA and burden CBM for two days when they just could have read a few articles?  

Hugh Wilson told us that he didn't just learn concepts, he also learned how to apply those concepts at Merion.  This is where I think CBM was providing direct influence over the design.   Remember how CBM needed a contour map back in June?  Well they had a contour map by March and were at NGLA with Charles Macdonald, who had already been over their land!  I think it unreasonable to believe they weren't working on how CBM's concepts could specifically apply at Merion. Especially given what Hugh and Alan Wilson wrote.  

Your position and that of others seems to artificially bifurcate what happened at NGLA from what happened after NGLA. I think it makes more sense to read it as a continuation of a process. They were working on the plan at NGLA and when they got back, based on what they had done at NGLA, they rearranged the course (the routing) and came up with five different plans (the details and/or alternatives.)  In other words I don't think it reasonable to believe that "rearranging the course" had nothing to do with the planning that went on at NGLA.  Likewise regarding the five plans.  Do you really suppose that they hadn't come up with at least some of this stuff at NGLA, do you?

But the kicker for me is that Merion brought them back to the site to again go over the land.  If CBM was only teaching them principles, then his job was done at NGLA and there was no need to go over the land for a second time.  Why would they again go down to Merion and again go over the land and the various potential options if they had not been involved in the planning up to that point? And, by itself, isn't going over the land and various alternatives and choosing the final plan an extremely integral part of the planning process?  

Likewise, with regard to the first letter, if CBM and HJW were NOT involved in the specifically locating the holes on the property, then why bring up the need for contour map?  For what would they have used a contour map, except to see whether the holes they had in mind would actually fit?  And how would  CBM have ven estimated what was possible had he not considered if holes would fit?  If he hadn't considered how the holes would fit, then at what was he looking when he was wandering over the land?  And how did he know they would need more land by the clubhouse?

In both instances there is more than just general advice or principles, there is strong indication that CBM was teaching them what to do with their land.

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5 - I forget what I said to diminish/discount CBM's efforts. I figure the committee spent their time at NGLA and back at Merion looking at and learning about the strategies and the construction techniques of a good number of template type holes...I also figure they would have their contour map with them and the topic would have been specifically where these holes could potentially go on the property.

I think what you said was at NGLA they were studying principles.  I agree with this but note that they were also learning how to apply those principles to their land.   I think that both Hugh and Alan indicate that they were working applying these principles to Merion's natural conditions.  In other words, they were working on the layout plan and how to create the holes planned.

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6 - What does it say?

"Mr. Whigham estimated that the cost of putting the ground into condition for play would be $25,000.00, and the introduction of water $5000.00, making a very liberal estimate . . .."

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7 - I think they were friendly with at least a coupleof the committee members or other Merion members and were doing alot of things (for free) in alot of places to help develop the game of golf in the States...why wouldn't they come in to provide the benefit of their experiences? To suggest that Merion woulf have asked them to design their golf course and never once mention that fact is a much more eggregious claim IMO!

I think you are speculating as to whether they were friends or not at this point (although I think some of them may have become friends at some point.)  

I also think you are putting this in a modern context.  It doesn't surprise me that they didn't refer to CBM as "the designer" or "architect" of Merion, and I don't think it was a slight.  At the time they didn't call Wilson or anyone else the "designer" or "architect" either. It wasn't really they way they described such things.  I think CBM/HJW advised them how to build the course, but to Merion creating the course was the really big deal.  While CBM was rapidly changing this, designing golf courses hadn't yet become appreciated in the way we appreciate it. That is why this early stuff is so difficult to figure out.

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8 - When I said the Road Hole, I believe I meant the Road Bunker, I'll go check and edit, but if it's enlarged and shifted to the left that's clearly a reduction of the imitation of the original, no?  I do agree that your handful of different images of this hole over the last couple weeks has certainly proved to me that a real effort at a Road Hole was made...but I also think it's highly possible for someone to explain the key features to me on paper and then show them to me on the ground the next day an let me get after it...it is very possible.


I think that the 1924 photo shows the expanded bunker and it still looks like a road hole to me.

I also think here you may be trying to trump what is likely with what is "possible."  
- Let's assume it was "possible" to explain the road hole to to a self described novice, show it to them then next day, and then have them get at it.  
-  Wasn't it at least as "possible" that CBM explained the road hole to them, show his Road Hole to them then next day, showed them on a contour map where to put theirs, then went there to the and make sure they got it right and that it was going to work, and then told them to get at it?

It seems reasonable to me to think that CBM played a role in placing these holes.   I'll go further and say it seems unreasonable to think that he did not play a role in placing these holes.  
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 09:56:16 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2239 on: June 02, 2011, 08:05:41 AM »
David,

Why wouldn't you quote the entire paragraph related to the supposed Whigham Budget that sent Patrick into a whirling dervish of accusations and triumphant proclamations?

After all, you are the one who told everyone that Whigham provided Merion with a budget that they followed.   This is what you wrote;

Second, I believe CBM and HJW did send him the same construction crew they had used at NGLA --Pickering and Johnson Construction.  CBM also sent them to Piper and Oakley.   Whigham estimated their budget for them.  (This may be the one thing I learned about Merion from the Faker book.  Thanks guys!)

and then later...

Mike makes a big deal about how Lesley also mentions how much it cost Mr. Heebner to build Whitemarsh.  So what? But I wonder if Mike noticed that Heebner's estimate was on the low end when compared to Whigham's and Merion apparently trusted HJW and went with the high end.

So please produce the entire segment David...I'm sure everyone is curious to see it.

Also, you wrote;

They did spend time learning about the concepts from CBM.  Wilson would have needed to have some understanding of these concepts to build his versions of the holes.  But if he was only was interested in the general concepts he could have simply read Whigham's Scribner's Article and CBM's Outing article.  Why go all the way to NGLA and burden CBM for two days when they just could have read a few articles?  

Hugh Wilson told us that he didn't just learn concepts, he also learned how to apply those concepts at Merion.  This is where I think CBM was providing direct influence over the design.   Remember how CBM needed a contour map back in June?  Well they had a contour map by March and were at NGLA with Charles Macdonald, who had already been over their land!  I think it unreasonable to believe they weren't working on how CBM's concepts could specifically apply at Merion. Especially given what Hugh and Alan Wilson wrote.



Why would they need to go to NGLA?   Why, to see Macdonald's amazing golf course, I'd think!   What better classroom than to see Macdonald's application of the principles espoused in those magazines in person for themselves?


As far as how Merion's Committee learned how to apply those principles to their natural conditions in Philadelphia?

Here's what Hugh Wilson said about that;




I think if he was sitting there with a contour map having CBM show them where to place the holes (essentially route the Merion course) that Wilson would have said exactly that.  

I think if Merion went to NGLA to have CBM work on their routing on a map that Hugh Wilson would have said that.

That's not what he said, is it?

No, he said "through sketches and explanations of the correct principles of the holes that form the famous courses abroad, we learned what was right and WHAT WE SHOULD TRY TO ACCOMPLISH with our natural conditions.   The next day we spent going over the course and studying the different holes."

Not a single word about working on Merion's routing, is there?

Not even an intimation, or suggestion, or hint.   

Do you think he would purposefully omit that critical information if indeed it had happened as you suggest?   Why would he ever do that??
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:05:47 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2240 on: June 02, 2011, 10:23:09 AM »
Mike,

I've provided my take on the Whigham estimated budget repeatedly.  I never expected you to agree or even understand it.   But stop with this endless game playing.   If you want to post the entire passage, then post it.  I am not stopping you.   

As for the rest, you still don't understand what Hugh Wilson was talking about, but that should be of no surprise to anyone. either.  Alan Wilson confirms my reading.  They were working on the layout plan.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2241 on: June 02, 2011, 10:32:52 AM »
David,

Was Alan Wilson at NGLA?   I don't believe he was.

In any case, here's what he wrote on the matter in 1926 when asked for his remembrances for a Merion History Book;

There were unusual and interesting features connected with the beginnings of these two courses which should not be forgotten. First of all, they were both “Homemade”. When it was known that we must give up the old course, a “Special Committee on New Golf Grounds”—composed of the late Frederick L. Baily. S.T. Bodine, E.C. Felton, H.G. Lloyd, and Robert Lesley, Chairman, chose the site; and a “Special Committee” DESIGNED and BUILT the two courses without the help of a golf architect. Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton, both ex-amateur champions and the latter a Scot who had learned his golf at Prestwick—twice came to Haverford, first to go over the ground and later to consider and advise about OUR PLANS. They also had our committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of Merion East were of the greatest help and value. Except for this, the entire responsibility for the DESIGN and CONSTRUCTION of the two courses rests upon the special Construction Committee, composed of R.S. Francis, R.E. Griscom, H.G. Lloyd. Dr. Harry Toulmin, and the late Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman.  (caps for emphasis mine)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2242 on: June 02, 2011, 10:40:06 AM »
Mike,

Contemporaneously, was Alan Wilson connected in any way with the creation of Merion ?

Did he sit on the Board ?

Was he part of the construction committee ?
   
Was he a member of Merion ?

Did he attend any of the meetings with Macdonald ?

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2243 on: June 02, 2011, 03:03:28 PM »
Patrick,

In answer to your questions;

1) Yes, his brother and business partner Hugh was the primary architect of both golf courses as they were designed and built over a period of four years.

2) Very possibly, as he was one of the Philadelphia "old guard" going back to the earliest days of the game in the city, but I'm not certain.

3) No

4) Yes, for a number of years at that point, although he had been a member of Philadelphia Country Club for a number of years prior and played on their golf team in GAP matches for a number of years.

5) There is no record of that, and Hugh Wilson tells us that his Committee visited NGLA, so it's almost certain that Alan Wilson wasn't at that meeting.


William Philler, who was the long-time Treasurer of Merion (as far back as 1903 and perhaps longer) asked Alan Wilson to write his remembrances of the beginning of the two Merion courses in 1926.

That fact is very pertinent considering that at the time, everyone else on the Merion Committee;  Lloyd, Griscom, Francis, Toulmin, were all still alive and members of the club as was Robert Lesley.

To therefore suggest that Alan Wilson had no inside knowledge of the events surrounding the architecture and creation of the two courses is pretty preposterous.  

Also alive at the time were CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham.

This is what Alan Wilson also wrote about his brother's role;

On his return the plan was gradually evolved and while largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from the other members of the Committee, they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the ARCHITECTURE of this and the West Course.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:49:19 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2244 on: June 02, 2011, 03:50:32 PM »
To therefore suggest that Alan Wilson had no inside knowledge of the events surrounding the architecture and creation of the two courses is pretty preposterous.

So then why do you ignore Alan Wilson when he tells us that at NGLA, CBM and HJW were advising them "as to the layout of Merion East" and that their advice and suggestions were of "the greatest help and value?"

I've never understood why you think you can pick and choose within this letter, or even why you think that this Alan Wilson letter helps your case. Even your fellow Merionettes realized that this letter was ultimately damning to their claims. Why else would they have conveniently deleted the phrase "as to the layout of Merion East" when they presented their transcription of the letter here?

While obviously written to emphasize the contributions of his recently deceased brother, even Alan Wilson cannot help but place CBM and HJW in the thick of the design process.  He credits the Committee with everything except for what CBM and HJW contributed.   Of the Committee, Wilson was the person in the main responsible.  

I agree with with him on both points.  
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:53:47 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2245 on: June 02, 2011, 03:52:30 PM »
Somewhat ironically, given the nature of these discussions that shamelessly seeks to cast doubt on the honesty and integrity of what all these men recorded in their own time, this is the cover page of what Alan Wilson wrote to Mr. Philler;

Mr. William R. Philler,
Haverford, Pa.

Dear Mr. Philler:-

      You asked me to write you up something about the beginnings of the East and West courses for use in the Club history, and I warned you that I did this sort of thing very badly. You insisted, however, so I have done the best I could and enclose the article herewith. If it is not what you want, please do not hesitate to destroy it and to ask someone else to write you something which will better suit your purpose.
      I am very glad you are writing the club history. It ought to be done because unless put on paper these things which are interesting in themselves are apt to be forgotten,-- and I do not know of anyone who would do the work so well as you.

                  With regards, I am,
                     Sincerely,
                        Alan D. Wilson

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2246 on: June 02, 2011, 03:59:10 PM »
David,

No one is arguing that CBM and Whigham didn't provide valuable "advice and suggestions" to the Committee about the design of their golf course.

Everyone told us they did...both Wilson brothers, Robert Lesley, AW Tilinghast, "Far and Sure", and William Evans, also I believe.   Richard Francis never mentioned them, but clearly enough evidence exists from the others to solidify their role.

I think you're wrong in suggesting that I don't believe that, because if I ever thought otherwise I've learned differently and stated it as fact myself here.

The problem begins when we try to overreach and then suggest that Wilson and his Committee's role was strictly construction and agronomy, and that they were simply tasked to build the course to someone else's plans.

That was the theme of your essay, it still exists as the "Synopsis" statement on this site, and I believe that the evidence shows that they in fact routed and designed the golf course with helpful advice and suggestions from CBM and HJ Whigham.

If you no longer believe that Wilson's role was strictly construction, then I think you should update your essay, frankly, because a lot has been learned and revealed since you first wrote it, evidence not available to you at that time.

But, that's your choice, obviously.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2247 on: June 02, 2011, 04:10:37 PM »
Mike one of the many ironies of these discussions is that you have spent hundreds of hours attacking me and my IMO, but you never bothered to actually take the time to try understand it.   You seem to have blown a fuse somewhere in the middle of the synopsis and never read any further, because you guys only cite the synopsis and never show any understanding of anything beyond that.  

I have always maintained that Wilson and CBM were working on the details of the plan at NGLA.   From the essay:  ". . . it seems extremely likely Wilson had been working out the particulars of the plan with Macdonald. . ."
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:13:16 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2248 on: June 02, 2011, 04:15:13 PM »
 Mike,

   Your mention of David's piece got me to go back to read it again. It is quite a remarkable piece that could have been the basis for positive updating. Unfortunately much of what has followed is personal attacks.
AKA Mayday

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #2249 on: June 02, 2011, 04:38:00 PM »
David,

I've read your essay at least five times start to finish and if I fail to understand it properly I don't think the fault lies with me.

But, I think these paragraphs are pretty clear;

Synopsis. While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. (bold mine) H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land. Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan. After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course. Immediately thereafter, the Construction Committee departed for NGLA so that Macdonald and Whigham could teach them how to build the golf holes at Merion East.

...
And again in the body...

Or so the story goes. But as is often the case with creation stories, this one is a blend of myth and reality. In reality, Wilson neither planned the routing nor conceived of the holes at Merion East. The course was planned months before Merion even appointed Wilson and his “Construction Committee.” Wilson and his Construction Committee were not appointed to design the course or conceive of the holes, but were to do what the name of their committee implies, construct the golf course. They laid the course out on the ground and built it according to plan.


Mike Malone,

While I think that's regrettable, I think both sides took some extreme positions, but I also think that was due to many suppositions being presented as factual and the fact that there was already a contentious history between several of the participants that led to this point.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:41:31 PM by MCirba »

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