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JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1550 on: April 25, 2011, 10:43:50 AM »
Tom,

I don't know.

That being said, I think I can see where you're going. Correct me if I'm wrong but a staple of your position is that the construction committee wasn't formed until January and Hugh Wilson didn't show up in any conversations until that point. Is that fair?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1551 on: April 25, 2011, 10:55:24 AM »
Jim,

Your comments on the Wilson letter summarize my feelings perfectly.  While you could interpret "immediately" to be upon speaking to CBM, it could also be immediately upon forming the committee.  We know CBM spoke of the Washington exerts in June, we have to assume they did in January.  To make that seem more likely, David's essay moves the well documented March NGLA trip to January, concurrent with the start of the committee, making it suspect, IMHO.  He also repeatedly claims more evidence on this point, but offers none.

And that is just one of a dozen assumptions that I pointed out in his essay that he decided to answer!  I believe the results would be similar for the other points, becacuse, in the bigger picture, he did admit earlier that there are really no documents in the June-March time frame to back up his contentions and that the supposed Drexel documents would be the only thing, if found.  He has made my basic point for me.

His IMO is just that - an opinion.  It simply shouldn't be taken as a valuble historic work, because so many large portions of it were done without standard historical backup.  That said, I will once again say his opinion that in many ways, CBM got the short stick from MCC for his known contributions in March-April 1911 is an easily defended opinion.  He just stretched it too far, IMHO.

And the only reason its on an NGLA thread is that the only proof he offers in his essay (his lost footnotes notwithstanding) of the earlier routing of MCC is that this is the way CBM did it at NGLA.  But, he offers no documents to back that up, he asks us to presume he is corret.  That in sum is why he takes off after Mike on this thread - to defend his theory at all costs - and as usual, makes it look like Mike was the bad guy for trying to discuss NGLA.

David,

I understand you are done with me.  Whoo hoo!  Hopefully, you do better at it than my Dear John letter attempt.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1552 on: April 25, 2011, 11:54:53 AM »
Tom,

I don't know.

That being said, I think I can see where you're going. Correct me if I'm wrong but a staple of your position is that the construction committee wasn't formed until January and Hugh Wilson didn't show up in any conversations until that point. Is that fair?

I would assume the green committee appointments would be made at the beginning of each year, and there is no reason to believe a new or non member would be involved with the golf course maintenance prior to that.


Are you sure Wilson was the chairman?

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1553 on: April 25, 2011, 12:05:50 PM »
Tom,

I think it's been documented on here with source material that he was, although I don't have any of it saved to my computer and I'm not going to look for it.

Regarding the appointment of a committee, I think you're wrong. For starters, they would likely rotate on a fiscal year basis, around here the majority of those are not matched to the calendar year. Secondly, committee members can be added or removed at any time.

What's your angle? What do you make of the timing of Wilson's letter?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1554 on: April 25, 2011, 12:17:37 PM »
Jim and Tom,

Not sure the annual green committee has anything to do with a special year when a whole new course was being built and the old one was still in play.  Not even sure that Wilson was a new member.

But, while I take the blame for steering this thread to Merion, because of its connection to the planning process at NGLA and the debate between Mike and David on same, I have to wonder if we are going to dig back into all the minute details, if we shouldn't open up an old Merion thread to discuss that?

Just a thought.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1555 on: April 25, 2011, 12:36:18 PM »
The way I understood the hierarchy, there was golf committee that oversaw everything relating to golf. Under that was the green committee which managed the maintenance. I was under the impression the green committee and the construction committee were one and the same, exactly the same members. I'm not sure if Wilson was chairman of the 1911 green committee or not, but I'm pretty certain he was newly appointed to that committee in 1911. And I would assume the naming or renaming of members of the different committee would have taken place at the annual meeting, whenever that took place (beginning or end of the year I assume). There was no reason for Wilson to be involved in any aspect until he was named to the green committee.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1556 on: April 25, 2011, 12:49:54 PM »
Looking through some old Inquirers it looks like the annual meeting typically took place in early December.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 12:59:49 PM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1557 on: April 25, 2011, 01:36:02 PM »
Tom,

The chairman of committees are named at the annual meetings. Their committee members are then subject to the chairman asking them to join so naturally it would not be at the exact time the chairman is named.

There was a quote along the lines of "the committee was formed in January of 1911...". What committee do you think was formed in January 1911?

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1558 on: April 25, 2011, 04:35:32 PM »
Looking through some old Inquirers it looks like the annual meeting typically took place in early December.

For which club?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1559 on: April 25, 2011, 04:48:45 PM »
I presume its not the same Inquirer that we now know and hate!

If so, the headline would be "Hugh Wilson takes over Constructon Committee after abduction by aliens!"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1560 on: April 25, 2011, 05:07:40 PM »
No matter how mysterious some may want to contend the timing and membership were, it is indisputable that whoever was on or in charge of "the committee" were responsible for the various "plans" that were "laid out" for the golf course.

In the past, it has been argued here by some that the various "plans" that were "laid out" could have simply been physically staking the course "on the ground", as if the members of this committee simply walked around the property driving wooden stakes into the ground in accordance with someone else's plan.

This, of course, is complete and utter poppycock.

Let's read again what the MCC Minutes tell us about who was responsible for those plans.

Golf Committee through Mr. Lesley, report as follows on the new Golf Grounds:

Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the
new land, they went down to the National Course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the
evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard
to golf courses. The next day was spent on the ground studying the various holes,
which were copied after the famous ones abroad.

On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans. On April
6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and
after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay
it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would
result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to
any inland course in the world.  In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to
acquire 3 acres additional.



The careful reader will note several things here, but the most important element is this;

Even if we consider that it's possible, if preposterous, that the committee was out there driving stakes, one would have to somehow accept that they drove five different sets of stakes in various locations!    Did they perhaps color code them to avoid mass confusion??  ;)

But, reading closer one sees clearly that such an interpretation is sheer nonsense.  

First of all, we learn that when Whigham and CBM came back on April 6th they spent their time considering the five plans "and the ground itself", which was separate from the five plans.

Moreover, we KNOW the plans were created on paper.   In fact, the plan recommended by CBM is "submitted here-with" to the members of the Merion Board of Governors.

So, unless somehow someone dug up 120 acres of stakes and turf and managed to stake it to the back of the Committee Report, we have no riddle here at all, and this whole idea of them staking out the course "on the ground" turns out to be self-evidently ridiculous and erroneous.

Hugh Wilson's personal account of the two-day visit spent at NGLA, for an article on Agronomic issues for Piper and Oakley in 1916, reiterated what took place during that visit.   It is also very telling to note that Wilson said, "our problem was to lay out the course, and build and seed 18 greens and fifteen fairways...", indicating clearly that these were two separate steps.   If Wilson's committee was only involved in the construction aspects, he would not have needed the separate initial step of "to lay out the course", but would have moved right to "build and seed";





« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 05:22:58 PM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1561 on: April 25, 2011, 07:06:40 PM »

I presume its not the same Inquirer that we now know and hate!

If so, the headline would be "Hugh Wilson takes over Constructon Committee after abduction by aliens!"


Jeff Brauer, et. al.,

WARNING:

Gorgeous alien women have invaded earth and are abducting very charming, very handsome, very well endowed men and taking them back to their planet for sex, recreational and procreational.

YOU are not in any danger.

I'm just sending you this message to say "Goodbye"  ;D

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1562 on: April 25, 2011, 07:56:32 PM »
Jim,

We've covered this so many times before I am not sure it will be all that productive to cover it again, especially with Brauer hanging out with no other apparent purpose than to pontificate as to the historical value of my essay, and Cirba repeating the same garbage he has already spit out time and again.  I wonder how the two of them decide who gets to post the screeds TEPaul sends them?  I imagine them drawing straws, only with Cirba actually scribbling a picture of a drinking straw, while Birther Brauer demands to see the long form birth certificates of all involved to make sure the straws are legitimate.  I guess they work it out somehow.

From hereon in I am only interested in discussions aimed at figuring out what happened.  I AM NOT INTERESTED IN FURTHER DISCUSSING MY IMO with these TEPaul surrogates.  I don't read his garbage in his constant emails and I'm not interested in reading it here either.  If these clowns have any more to say about my IMO let them write their own damn IMO.

As for your questions, I will try to answer them when I get the chance, if for no other reason that you manage to disagree without even calling me a liar, or my work a pile of shit, worthless, asinine, absurd, and whatever else these two creeps have come up with the past few weeks.

Thanks for that.  
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:08:21 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1563 on: April 25, 2011, 09:00:23 PM »
What it comes down to for me, does the story make sense, is it logical.

Is it plausible Merion Cricket Club would put their eggs into the basket of an inexperienced untested insurance salesman when they had arguably the two top golf architects in the country at their disposal, not to mention the success of a real estate venture was also at stake. IMO not only is implausible, I think it is impossible, and nothing I've seen contradicts that opinion.

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1564 on: April 25, 2011, 09:02:11 PM »
Shivas,  The only version I have is the reprinted text in George Bahto's book on Macdonald.  I am not comfortable cutting and pasting that many pages much out of George's book.  Even if I was my scanner is broken.  Don't you have book?   If not I hear they are selling for around a grand.  I'll gladly sell you mine for half that if you don't mind a few dog bites out if the binding.  


Tom MacWood,  how dare you bring logic into it.   With logic how could we pretend that CBM just happened to be there throughout, without ever managing to contribute anything?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:04:03 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1565 on: April 25, 2011, 09:11:16 PM »
For that to be the case you would be accusing those same MCC members of outright fraud...which is exponentially less logical IMO.

I'm not sure how anyone can take the black and white position both sides have on this deal, all of your egos are making a reasonable conversation impossible...get over yourselves.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1566 on: April 25, 2011, 09:49:55 PM »
David,

I know you are done with me, but with your post 1458, it occurs to me for all our mud slinging, our postions may not have been all that far apart.  So, sorry for my part in all that.  We can get a bit heated sometimes.

Pat,

LOL.  One question, are the alien women hotter than your eye doctors assistant?  If so, put in a good word for me.....

Jim,

Yeah, we need to get over ourselves.

TMac,

You bring up a point that was bandied about quite a bit.  Can a person with interest in history inject their biases too much into the proceedings?  If the committee reports show that they did it mostly themselves, what makes us think our opinions as to what might have been logical can be substituted for the historic record?  Some interpretation of documents is always required, but I believe it gets dangerous interpreting motive, intent, and events based on something other than the record.

Of course, all of this brings back memories of the discussion.  Also debated hotly were concepts like whether we could trust club records and those who wrote them because some have turned out wrong.  IIRC, because Tollhurst's 1950 history had some errors, some questioned all of Merions documents, including that letter Mike posted above, which, BTW Wilson clearly tells us he went to GBI later.  How could a misinterpretation in 1950 cast doubt on a nearly contemporaneous document produced by a participant?  Yet, I believe we debated that.

And who can forget the hundreds of posts devoted to what the phrase "laid out" meant in 1910. Mike's comment today about bringing the sod into the meeting room reminds me of why I gave up a large office with a conference room, and then a small one with a bigger personal office for conferences to work in my house - in 33 years, not one person ever brought a golf course to my office for examination!

Or our discussion of that era's train schedules, and what they told us about who designed Merion.

Ah, those were the days!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:51:45 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1567 on: April 25, 2011, 09:51:31 PM »
Jim,

I am not sure that last comment about accusing the various past MCC members of "fraud" was directed to me,  but I certainly wouldn't and haven't.  I've tried to take all of their comments at face value, which is how I figured all this stuff out in the first place.

For example, when Hugh Wilson tells Piper that that "CBM spoke of" Piper, and that Wilson immediately decided to write to Piper, I take that to mean that Wilson wasn't making it up and that CBM actually did speak to Wilson about Piper and that Wilson not only immediately decided to write, he immediately wrote.

I am not a fool an neither was Wilson, and it would make little sense for Wilson to write that CBM had spoken of him if they hadn't spoken, and if all Wilson had to go on was an old letter mentioning that Merion should send some samples to "Washington."  Likewise, it would make no sense for Wilson to write that he "immediately decided to write" if he really meant he and Merion had waited eight months to write after they "immediately decided" to write.

But we'll get to all that I am sure.   For now, I hope you don't mind that I started with your second theory first.
________________________________________________________________

Was Wilson Involved Prior to early 1911?  

I understand why you want to place Wilson on the scene earlier than January 1911, but I just don't think the facts or your reasoning justifies such speculation.

1. I am unaware of anything putting HWilson on the scene earlier than early 1911.    

2. There are a number of accounts discussing HWilson's involvement, including his own, Robert Lesley's, and AWilson's.  All have HWilson starting after the land was purchased and the Construction Committee was appointed.  If he was contributing earlier, I would expect that one or more of these accounts would have mentioned it.  At the very least, the absence of any mention strongly suggests he was not involved before the Construction Committee was formed in early 1911.

3. A different Committee, Lesley's Golf Committee, was extensively involved during the period in question and Wilson was not on that Committee, nor is there anything suggesting he was aiding that Committee.  

4.  You reason that HWilson must have been involved earlier otherwise he wouldn't have been appointed chair.  Like TomM, I have my doubts as to whether he was appointed chair right off the bat as opposed to eventually becoming the de facto chair precisely because of his interest and aptitude as the construction phase progressed.

5.  Also, I don't know how we could say that earlier involvement must have been the reason for his appointment.  Would you say the same thing about Dr. Toulmin?   Aren't their other reasons Wilson may have been appointed? An interest in agronomy? His past experience at Princeton? He was due to take on responsibility? He had time? Who knows why?  But yours is not the only potential reason and I am not sure it is even the most likely.

6.   Also, had Hugh Wilson been involved earlier, there is a good chance he would have left a trail in the Piper/Oakley correspondence.   This is Hugh Wilson we are talking about and he obviously wasn't shy about reaching out for help and assistance when it came to this project.  Once he got started, he wrote letter after letter after letter to P&O and who knows who else. Had he already been involved, then why wouldn't the letters to Piper and Oakley started much earlier?  The deal was in place by November at the latest, so why would he have waited?  It just doesn't seem to fit HWilson's personality for him to have been involved yet not pestering Piper and Oakley and others  for help.  

So while I guess it is possible he was out there, it seems highly unlikely, given that 1) there is no factual record supporting your belief that Wilson was out their earlier; 2)  I don't agree with your reasoning that they would never have appointed them had he not been out there; and 3) had he been involved, I'd expect to have seen evidence of it in the various descriptions of HWilson's involvement or at least in the P&O letters.

But as I have always said, I haven't precluded the possibility, but cannot base anything on speculation which such weak factual and analytical support.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 10:13:33 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1568 on: April 26, 2011, 08:02:19 AM »

What it comes down to for me, does the story make sense, is it logical.

Is it plausible Merion Cricket Club would put their eggs into the basket of an inexperienced untested insurance salesman when they had arguably the two top golf architects in the country at their disposal, not to mention the success of a real estate venture was also at stake. IMO not only is implausible, I think it is impossible, and nothing I've seen contradicts that opinion.


This is certainly a new and unique way of determining history.

Apparently it doesn't matter what the evidence shows.   It doesn't matter what everyone said back then, including the Committee members.    It doesn't matter what others like Tillinghast and Findlay contemporaneously stated.    And most of all, it doesn't matter what the Merion Cricket Club Minutes said.

It only matters if it makes sense or seems logical to some here who can't get their minds around the fact that in the earliest days of golf in this country there was an amateur reaction to the general dreck of golf courses built by the supposed "expert" professionals.

So, I guess it doesn't matter that Richard Francis told us that his Committee both laid out and built the new course at Merion.

Not a mention of Macdonald

Not a mention of Barker.

None of this matters because we are in the midst of two men of self-professed superior intelligence who want to rewrite history to jive with what appears logical or makes sense to them.

Certainly a unique methodology so I have to give them credit there.

With absolutely no facts or evidence at their disposal, we hear instead accusations like me presenting this hard, physical, contemporaneous evidence is acting as some sort of shill for Tom Paul, who I haven't spoken to or emailed in a month or two.   Without evidence, their logical arguments simply fall apart so instead we get inflamed accusations designed to divert attention.

Can we stick to actual facts and evidence??   Other than some speculation about where the site of the October NGLA articles may have been, that's all I've presented on this thread from the beginning.   One would hope our conversation could have been more constructive but I do think a lot has been learned here, so I think it's been worth it.






« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 08:09:45 AM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1569 on: April 26, 2011, 09:17:31 AM »
Mike,

Is it plausible Merion Cricket Club would put their eggs into the basket of an inexperienced untested insurance salesman when they had arguably the two top golf architects in the country at their disposal?

I guess I don't know but the fact that 50 +/- years later, some clients apparently did the same thing when they hired Pete Dye would seem to suggest it might have happened, as if all the documents saying that is what they did wasn't enough.  If we listen to Tom MacWood, Pete Dye's career never happened, and we can now discuss who REALLY designed Harbor Town, TPC, Crooked Stick, etc., no?

Just one targeted example of why that particular theory sucks.

PS-the analogy holds well because Pete designed a few courses before going over to GBI to get his style.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 09:19:18 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1570 on: April 26, 2011, 09:46:29 AM »
So this actually is a Merion thread after all! Just took 45 pages to get there :-)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1571 on: April 26, 2011, 09:59:09 AM »
Neil,

I'm blaming Brauer for this one.   

I think he even admitted it was his fault, or else it was Jim Kennedy, can't remember which.    :-X  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1572 on: April 26, 2011, 10:06:17 AM »
Neil,

No, its actually a Pete Dye thread, as you can see above.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1573 on: April 26, 2011, 10:11:37 AM »
Mike,

Is it plausible Merion Cricket Club would put their eggs into the basket of an inexperienced untested insurance salesman when they had arguably the two top golf architects in the country at their disposal?

I guess I don't know but the fact that 50 +/- years later, some clients apparently did the same thing when they hired Pete Dye would seem to suggest it might have happened, as if all the documents saying that is what they did wasn't enough.  If we listen to Tom MacWood, Pete Dye's career never happened, and we can now discuss who REALLY designed Harbor Town, TPC, Crooked Stick, etc., no?

Just one targeted example of why that particular theory sucks.

PS-the analogy holds well because Pete designed a few courses before going over to GBI to get his style.

Pete Dye? I don't think the comparison is an apt one. Pete Dye's father designed, built and maintained his own golf course. Pete served as a greenkeeper at Fort Bragg golf course while in the military. I believe Pete's first design was a nine holer in Indy named El Dorado, or something like that. No disrepect to El Dorado but I don't think that job was quite as prestigious as Merion Cricket in 1911. Dye's record as an amateur golfer was more impressive as well.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 10:14:31 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #1574 on: April 26, 2011, 10:18:29 AM »
Wilson had a bit of experience, too.

Spin it any way you want, TMac, your "I don't think its logical" theory of history truly sucks.  To be honest, how many of our wars were "logical"?  Elections?  Rise of Dictators?  Anyone can argue after the fact that it wasn't logical to have happened, and yet it did, repeatedly (whatever "it" was.)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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