News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #125 on: January 23, 2011, 11:22:02 PM »
TEPaul spouting off about yet another subject he knows nothing about?  Who would have thought it?  And again he libels me, adding to the lies he has been trying to spread for the past few years.  

As for this latest smear, I will not stoop to address any of it on a public website, especially as this website has nothing to do with this latest lame attempt at character assassination.  My only comment is that this latest bit is very desperate and full of false innuendo and outright lies.  

But then those of us who have dealt with this creep know that this is par for the course.  

___________________________

Patrick,  TEPaul has shown everyone what he is all about, so why bother with this lowlife creep?  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #126 on: January 23, 2011, 11:23:15 PM »
Mike and Patrick:

I think what we are going to find and will find is that the committee structure and makeup, the business aspects, land development (residential) and otherwise, the corporate entities and structure to support and effect it all are remarkably similar between the concepts and creations of NGLA and MCC in 1910 and that is what a lot of what the reason they got CBM to Ardmore was all about. The rest had more to do with agronomic potential (or lack of it) and agronomic development than golf course architecture.

The architectural development and who was responsible on both projects? I think you are going to see that is was very little different from the way both clubs have always reported it and presented it in their history and history books and otherwise. ;)

Personally, I have come to believe that all this "stuff" that goes on here on this website and has for years should be made part and parcel of the history and reportage on both of these famous and signifcant clubs but perhaps more as an example of overaching misinterpretation or perhaps even a chronicle of how not to analyze and treat history of GCA and otherwise in the future! Perhaps, even, as a wonderful example of an over-riding joke!  ;)

I would disagree, entirely.

NGLA was Macdonald's brainchild, dating back a decade or more before a shovel hit the dirt.

He developed the concepts, A to Z.

He studied abroad on several occassions and for lengthy durations.

NGLA was not the product of a committee, it was his baby from concept to construction, inclusive of complete control.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #127 on: January 23, 2011, 11:25:51 PM »
David,

Name calling, when done in jest, is OK, but, it serves no purpose.

Let everyone's posts speak for themselves.

We don't need to be told who you, Tom MacWood and TEPaul are, in real life or in characterization.

Let's stick to the subject matter at hand and argue IT, to the exclusion of everything else, and especially not the author.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 11:38:44 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #128 on: January 23, 2011, 11:28:29 PM »
Boy, for folks who truly love the history of CBM and NGLA, before Old Macdonald came about, certainly a great number of us found this website's Discussion Group through an INTERNET search of the topic. Now, with the opening of Old Macdonald and the success it has achieved since, no doubt there are countless others who have stumbled upon GOLFCLUBATLAS.COM and this Discussion Group while doing a GOOGLE search. This thread, by virtue of the subject alone, is bound to be one for the ages, or so you would think.

Too bad readers have to wade through posts like #116 while visiting GOLFCLUBATLAS.COM. Who knows what they're going to think after reading a post like that. "YES, THEY ARE INSANE ON GCA.COM" sounds about right.

Sorry for the OT, Please continue...

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2011, 07:24:35 AM »
If that's the case, Kennedy, then perhaps you should stop speculating about who I am or what I'm about on here or elsewhere!

There's no speculation on my part as to what you are.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2011, 03:57:43 PM »
Jim & TEPaul,

Forget the name calling and categorizations.
They serve no purpose.

Let the merits of the content of each reply/post speak for itself.

The more important issue is this:

TEPaul, Is there, or is there NOT, a contour and/or topo map of NGLA prior to CBM's purchase in 1906 ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2011, 06:14:57 PM »
TEPaul,

Is there, or is there NOT, a contour and/or topo map of NGLA prior to CBM's purchase in 1906 ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #132 on: January 24, 2011, 09:28:47 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Would you agree, in the context of the configuration of the land acquired, that with the site for a clubhouse determined, thus establishing where currrent holes # 9 and # 10 would be, and the finding of the location of holes # 3, # 4, # 13 and # 14, that the balance of the routing was a rather simple, if not predetermined exercise ?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #133 on: January 25, 2011, 03:01:11 PM »
Jim,

After leaving the site for six months, I returned with the idea (and Ran's recommendation) to just have fun here.

You must have missed my public courses before the depression thread where those paragons of innocence and virtue, David and TMac basically drove that thread off the road, into the gutter, and then backed up and ran over me again.

What was my sin?  Having the audacity to claim that prior to the depression, Cobbs Creek was viewed by many observers as the best public course in the country.

But I guess you missed all of that...


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43689.0.html

Mike
Is this the thread I drove into the gutter? I thought it actually turned into one of the more interesting and informative threads.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #134 on: January 25, 2011, 04:17:05 PM »
Can you reasonably conclude that if TEPaul doesn't respond, NO contour map or topo existed prior to CBM's purchase of the site in 1906 ?

Was Mike Sweeney right about the Philadelphia dilema with New York ?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #135 on: January 25, 2011, 04:24:32 PM »
Philadelphia is the most provincial, defensive town I've ever been from...

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #136 on: January 25, 2011, 06:41:51 PM »
Can you reasonably conclude that if TEPaul doesn't respond, NO contour map or topo existed prior to CBM's purchase of the site in 1906 ?

-Either that, or Elvis has left the building


Was Mike Sweeney right about the Philadelphia dilema with New York ?


-MS is almost always right.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 06:43:30 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #137 on: January 26, 2011, 06:40:42 AM »
Patrick,

Perhaps you should read George Bahto's book again if you want to know the process of how NGLA was routed over several months.   I really don't want to type all that again and it's admittedly a better fantasy to believe they did it all on two days on horseback through the brambles....that's did it so exactlingly in fact they bought 205 acres to contain the 110 acres they routed that turned out to be 170 acres.

Or, perhaps you can simply ask David and Tom MacWood or Jim Kennedy?   They may be able to do a quick online search and find you a newspaper article somewhere that contrasts to all those I posted above..

Sadly, that's very slim pickings, I know, but they seem to be all that's left here, so...enjoy the company!  ;)


« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:48:42 AM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #138 on: January 26, 2011, 10:18:16 AM »
Mike,

I don't have access to George's book at the present time, but, I will have it in my possession next week and will reread it.

In the meantime, how do you account for the fact that Donald Ross was able to route a golf course with but a single day's viisit to the site ?

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #139 on: January 26, 2011, 11:23:26 AM »
Mike,

In the meantime, how do you account for the fact that Donald Ross was able to route a golf course with but a single day's viisit to the site ?

Or sometimes without visiting the site at all.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #140 on: January 26, 2011, 12:06:21 PM »
Yes, and "Donald Ross" was a large-scale, architectural corporation with trusted, experienced onsite associates and builders at his disposal carrying out his high-level plans that he sometimes sketched on topographical maps after the sites were surveyed.   He designed hundreds of courses across the country over decades, but most of his very early work in around 1910 was hands-on and detailed, such as at Pinehurst and Essex.

CB Macdonald was meticulously trying to introduce strategic concepts to show the United States what great golf holes entailed in building his ideal course and spent months and years getting all the details right onsite with the continuing help of Seth Raynor, Dev Emmet, HJ Whigham, and others, and some early help from Walter Travis, little of which is documented or known due to their apparent falling-out over the years.

Pat..I didn't realize you didn't have George's book.   I'll type some relevant sections later.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #141 on: January 26, 2011, 02:59:03 PM »
As usual, Mike is playing fast and loose with the facts to try and make his petty points.  Take, for example, the way he continues to pretend that CBM was only planning on using 110 acres for the golf course even after he secured the land adjacent to Shinnecock.    I've explained to Mike repeatedly that the articles from around that time were drawing heavily on CBM's 1904 letter providing "a suggestion" of one way the deal could be structured, and that this letter explicitly states that the details would would be determined later.  Yet for some reason Mike continues to try to keep this 110 acre idea in play even after the Shinnecock land was located.

But it doesn't wash.  These articles were still basically parroting the old 1904 letter to give background on the project.  Take for example this following article, posted above, which Mike does not properly source.



Compare the portion following "Golfers conversant with the holes abroad . . . " with the text of the 1904 letter, a excerpt of which follows:

 Any golfer conversant with the golf courses abroad and the best we have in America—which are generally conceded to be Garden City, Myopia and the Chicago Golf Club—knows that in America as yet we have no first-class golf course comparable with the classic golf courses in Great Britain and Ireland. There is no reason why this should be so, and it is the object of this association to build such a course, making it as near National as possible, and further, with the object of promoting the best interests of the game of golf in the United States.
. . .
   The idea is to ask sixty men to subscribe $1,000 each for this purpose . . ..
   The sixty subscribers, in order to designate them, we will call the Founders.
   Besides the Founders, we would offer an associate membership to two hundred men, with an initiation fee of $100 to $200 each, and annual dues of $30 to $40 each.  Besides the Founders, we would offer an associate membership to two hundred men, with an initiation fee of $100 to $200 each, and annual dues of #30 to #40 each. The associate membership would build the necessary golf clubhouse.
   While the $1,000 subscription it is trusted will be made in a spirit of advancing the sport in this country, and not as an investment, at the same time it is proposed to give something for the $1,000.
   Assuming that we buy 200 acres, it would take about 110 acres to lay out the golf course proper, and five acres for a clubhouse and accessories. We would give to each subscriber an acre and a half of ground in fee simple. This ground in itself should be worth $500 an acre in the vicinity of a golf course of this character.


Obviously, the article is copying, almost verbatim, the 1904 letter, and other sources from around this time do similarly.  Yet Mike acts as if all this was all a consideration in 1907, with the new land.    

A more important intentional muddying of the waters can be seen in the way Mike is blurring the lines between a rough routing plan of where the holes will go and an all encompassing layout plan done in such detail so as to enable the production of the an exact scale model of the course.   Obviously the latter was not done over a few days.  But while work would continue on the course for decades, the general routing was not such a complicated affair.  

When viewing all of this, we must keep in mind Mike's agenda here, as revealed above.   This is all some crazy and convoluted attempt to make some point or another about the creation Merion.  But Mike not only has to distort what happened at NGLA to make his point, he has to distort my understanding of what happened at Merion as well.   This isn't about figuring out what happened, it is nothing more than his continuing attempt to win that argument.  

_____________

As for Bahto's excellent book on the subject, some of his conclusions about the order in which things happened do not seem entirely consistent with what CBM wrote in his book.   For one example, George wrote about how CBM brought in 10,000 truckloads of soil to re-contour and sculpt the land to fit his plans.   According to CBM, this was topsoil brought in to grow grass, not for re-contouring the terrain.

For another example - the on which Mike is no doubt relying - George seems to suggest that the land was cleared and surveyed and contour maps created before CBM routed the course.  He also implies that Travis and Emmett may have been involved in the process of finding these holes.  But Macdonald himself directly contradicts this, as does Whigham.  And as much respect as I have for George, between Macdonald and George, I'll go with Macdonald, unless of course George has some compelling information to the contrary. Mike, though, will pick and choose, ignoring Macdonald if it suits his cause.

________________________

There are interesting issues to discuss regarding NGLA, but we wont get anywhere so long as Mike keeps trying to use the history and material rhetorically.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 03:14:55 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #142 on: January 26, 2011, 03:07:26 PM »
Patrick,

From "The Evangelist of Golf", pages 62-64;

"Undaunted, Macdonald uncovered a 45-acre tract adjacent to the Shinnecock Hills course.   The property had been looked upon as wholly ill-suited for any development - a worthless mess of brambles, swampy areas, and murky bogs.   In fact, so little of the land could be explored on foot it was necessary to use ponies."

"It was here that Macdonald, who had no background in surveying or construction, first hired a local surveyor/engineer named Seth Raynor to produce a detailed map of the property.   To say the least, the land was by no means perfect, but it was almost entirely sand based.  Macdonald envisioned that once the swamps were drained and the underbrush cleared, they would find a site with natural undulations perfect for building his ideal course..."

"...From the survey, Macdonald made a rough sketch of the holes he planned to build, and with Raynor, located potential sites and elevations for greens, tees, and turning points in the fairway.   Macdonald tinkered endlessly with the routing plan.   Finally, after months of planning, he was ready to move to the next step..."

"...C.B. next asked Henry Whigham and Walter Travis, each golf champions and course architects in their own right, to assist him in implementing his plan.   Though Travis soon bowed out of the project, C.B. and Whigham continued on with the assistance of Joseph P. Knapp.   Also closely involved were banker James Stillman, Devereux Emmett....and a few others"

"Using Raynor's survey maps and Macdonald's personal drawings as a guide, they forged ahead."

"Once cleared, the site was visually stirking.   Knolls, hills, and basins furnished the topography.   They also found natural ponds and uncovered a portion of Sebonac Creek which could be used for water hazards."

"Macdonald and company located fairly natural sites for a Redan and Eden, as well as a site for an Alps, requiring only a slight modification.   The location for a Sahara hole was selected, as well as spots for a few original Macdonald creations suggested by the terrain.   The routing of the course was beginning to take form, and although Macdonald later claimed the majority of the holes were on natural sites, in reality he manipulated a huge amount of soil."

"A number of strategic and aesthetic innovations took place at National, yet often overlooked is the seminal influence Macdonald and Raynor had on early course construction.   Macdonald was not afraid to move massive amounts of earth in order to achieve a desired artistic effect, and Raynor had the engineering skills to blend it all together."

"Macdonald eventually admitted to importing 10,000 truckloads of soil to recontour and sculpt areas to fit his diagrams.   A meticulous planner, Macdonald knew precisely what he was trying to achieve, and if he could not find an appropriate site, one would just have to be created!   It is true that natural sites were located for his Redan and Eden, but to build other replications to his exacting specifications required extensive movement and importing of soil.  Heavily influenced by this philosophy, Seth Raynor - and later Charles Banks - would later take earthmoving to new dimensions."


David,

In 1906, before CBM purchased the Sebonac property, he made an offer on another property closer to Shinnecock.

It was 120 acres.  I'm assuming that was for a golf course, no?

Earlier that year, HJ Whigham also repeated the supposed 1904 mantra of purchasing over 200 acres, presumably because of the need for building lots for the Founders.

By 1912, CBM again referred to the "Surplus Land" they had purchased, referring to the original Founders agreement, but again stating that no decision had been made on what to do with the land.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 03:16:27 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #143 on: January 26, 2011, 03:18:11 PM »
My comments above Mike's extensive quotation of Bahto address Mike's reliance on this portion of George's excellent book.   See how predictable all this has become?   I don't even need to wait for Mike to post before I reply. 

Mike, Why do you choose to ignore CBM himself on these issues?   Surely we should go directly to the source where possible, should we not?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #144 on: January 26, 2011, 03:28:30 PM »
David,

I posted what CBM wrote pages back.   I'll post it again below.   

I think we have a difference of opinion and I'm not sure why you have a problem with me posting directly from George's book?   What you are calling a "rough routing", I'm calling a basic identification of some key features that could be used for some of the "ideal" holes CBM had in mind.  They did not do the routing of 18 holes on horseback, nor did CBM ever claim he did.

They only thought they'd need about 110-120 acres, and bought enough property...205 acres...to encapsulate those good features and have land left over for building lots.




« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 03:40:33 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #145 on: January 26, 2011, 04:01:37 PM »
Show me anywhere where CBM or HJW wrote that they would only need 110 acres for THAT PARTICULAR PROPERTY, or that they ever intended to build lots ON THAT PARTICULAR PROPERTY. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #146 on: January 26, 2011, 04:22:38 PM »
David,

They estimating needing just over 200 acres for the combination of golf course and Founders building lots from 1904 on, including Whigham reiterating that acreage earlier in 1906.

How many acres did he end up buying?

Your idea that he only bought what he needed for the pre-routed golf course is erroneous, and he addressed the issue of the issue of the surplus land in his 1912 founders letter.  Should I scan and publish that here too?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #147 on: January 26, 2011, 04:31:43 PM »
I understand  your theory Mike, no need to repeat it. 

 I asked you a specific question.  Care to take another shot at answering it?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #148 on: January 26, 2011, 05:45:14 PM »
Yes, and "Donald Ross" was a large-scale, architectural corporation with trusted, experienced onsite associates and builders at his disposal carrying out his high-level plans that he sometimes sketched on topographical maps after the sites were surveyed. 


The associates and builders employed by Donald Ross are irrelevant to this issue.

This is an issue focused on ROUTING, not construction.

Ross routed courses with but one visit.

And, as cited, he also routed courses without ever having stepped on the property.

Please confine your argument to the issue, which is routing and not things which happened AFTER the routing.
[/b]


 He designed hundreds of courses across the country over decades, but most of his very early work in around 1910 was hands-on and detailed, such as at Pinehurst and Essex.

That's NOT TRUE.
Many of his courses were "drive by" designs, based on a one day visit.
If he was able to route a course in one day, I'm sure other talented architects could do the same thing.
[/b]

CB Macdonald was meticulously trying to introduce strategic concepts to show the United States what great golf holes entailed in building his ideal course and spent months and years getting all the details right onsite with the continuing help of Seth Raynor, Dev Emmet, HJ Whigham, and others, and some early help from Walter Travis, little of which is documented or known due to their apparent falling-out over the years.

You're missing the entire point, and/or are trying to divert the discussion.

CBM ALREADY HAD THE METICULOUS DESIGNS IN HIS POCKET.
He knew what holes he wanted to reproduce.
Once he examined the land form, and found suitable locations for them, placing them within a routing was a relatively simple task.

You're trying to substitute Micro architecture for Macro architecture in an attempt to dismiss CBM's ability to route NGLA in short order, since his ability to do so would defeat your contention that he didn't route or assist in routing Merion.  Yet, we know that his template holes found their way into the ground at Merion.  Why then is the possibility of his routing the course so impossible to you ?

As I questioned you earlier, if holes # 3, # 4, # 13, # 14, # 9 and # 10 had been positioned, on that narrow out and back landform, how difficult do you think it was to complete the rest of the routing ?  You know where # 2, # 5, # 12, # 15, # 8  have to go, and from there, the rest of the holes fall in place, with little in the way of possible variations.
[/b]

Pat..I didn't realize you didn't have George's book.   I'll type some relevant sections later.

I have a copy of George's book personally autographed by the author.
I just don't have it with me at the moment.
[/b]

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #149 on: January 26, 2011, 06:11:27 PM »
Patrick,

From "The Evangelist of Golf", pages 62-64;

"Undaunted, Macdonald uncovered a 45-acre tract adjacent to the Shinnecock Hills course.   The property had been looked upon as wholly ill-suited for any development - a worthless mess of brambles, swampy areas, and murky bogs.   In fact, so little of the land could be explored on foot it was necessary to use ponies."

Mike,  The tract was 450 acres, NOT 45 acres.
[/b]

"It was here that Macdonald, who had no background in surveying or construction, first hired a local surveyor/engineer named Seth Raynor to produce a detailed map of the property.   To say the least, the land was by no means perfect, but it was almost entirely sand based.  Macdonald envisioned that once the swamps were drained and the underbrush cleared, they would find a site with natural undulations perfect for building his ideal course..."

Mike, how can you leave out the intervening passages of CBM's own account ?

Why do you choose to cite George's interpretation over CBM's ?

Doing so conveys, not what happened chronologically, but what you want to present with your agenda.
[/b]

"...From the survey, Macdonald made a rough sketch of the holes he planned to build, and with Raynor, located potential sites and elevations for greens, tees, and turning points in the fairway.   Macdonald tinkered endlessly with the routing plan.   Finally, after months of planning, he was ready to move to the next step..."

"...C.B. next asked Henry Whigham and Walter Travis, each golf champions and course architects in their own right, to assist him in implementing his plan.   Though Travis soon bowed out of the project, C.B. and Whigham continued on with the assistance of Joseph P. Knapp.   Also closely involved were banker James Stillman, Devereux Emmett....and a few others"

"Using Raynor's survey maps and Macdonald's personal drawings as a guide, they forged ahead."

"Once cleared, the site was visually stirking.   Knolls, hills, and basins furnished the topography.   They also found natural ponds and uncovered a portion of Sebonac Creek which could be used for water hazards."

"Macdonald and company located fairly natural sites for a Redan and Eden, as well as a site for an Alps, requiring only a slight modification.   The location for a Sahara hole was selected, as well as spots for a few original Macdonald creations suggested by the terrain.   The routing of the course was beginning to take form, and although Macdonald later claimed the majority of the holes were on natural sites, in reality he manipulated a huge amount of soil."

This is out of chronological sequence and YOU KNOW IT.

Are you so desperate to put forth your agenda that you're willing to distort the chain of events as they happened, substituting your time frame instead ?  That's disengenuous and certainly intellectually dishonest.
[/b]

"A number of strategic and aesthetic innovations took place at National, yet often overlooked is the seminal influence Macdonald and Raynor had on early course construction.   Macdonald was not afraid to move massive amounts of earth in order to achieve a desired artistic effect, and Raynor had the engineering skills to blend it all together."

"Macdonald eventually admitted to importing 10,000 truckloads of soil to recontour and sculpt areas to fit his diagrams.   A meticulous planner, Macdonald knew precisely what he was trying to achieve, and if he could not find an appropriate site, one would just have to be created!   It is true that natural sites were located for his Redan and Eden, but to build other replications to his exacting specifications required extensive movement and importing of soil.  Heavily influenced by this philosophy, Seth Raynor - and later Charles Banks - would later take earthmoving to new dimensions."

Mike, we know all of this, and it has NOTHING to do with the routing, it has to do with construction.

You're confusing MICRO architecture with MACRO architecture for your convenience, for your agenda.
[/b]


David,

In 1906, before CBM purchased the Sebonac property, he made an offer on another property closer to Shinnecock.

NO, closer to the Shinnecock CANAL
[/b]

It was 120 acres.  I'm assuming that was for a golf course, no?

So what, each site is unique.
The site near the Shinnecock CANAL has nothing to do with the site eventually purchased.
[/b]

Earlier that year, HJ Whigham also repeated the supposed 1904 mantra of purchasing over 200 acres, presumably because of the need for building lots for the Founders.

That's a PRESUMPTION on YOUR PART.
[/b]

By 1912, CBM again referred to the "Surplus Land" they had purchased, referring to the original Founders agreement, but again stating that no decision had been made on what to do with the land.

I've asked you time and time again to point out the surplus land for the building lots you've alluded to.
Would you please locate and delineate the land for that purpose ?
[/b]

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back