[Kris Shreiner]

Melvyn,

I believe that epic picture is of you...leading the cart-taking, golf heretics out for a walk on the water hazard!

JC,

Gald you ditched the Hoofer. That bag was the carry-bag fraud defined!

Cheers,
Kris

[Jason Walker]

I used to think the main reason I rode in a cart was to carry all the beer.....until a recent day at Calusa Pines where the caddies INSISTED they carry our beers, and the guys in the shop went out of their way to bring us reloads three-four times during the round.  Happens that our host has a certain affiinity for a certain foreign beer, and this practice has become commonplace with him, but nonetheless I have a newfangled appreciation for walking AND caddies!

[JC Jones]

I wouldn't get your hopes up elsewhere.  The level of service at Calusa is top notch, heck my caddie there got me on Seminole.  I've taken a number of caddies this year at a number of great courses and I can tell you that I had exactly 2 positive experiences: 1) Calusa Pines and 2) Dunes Club (best caddies on the planet).

The majority of the problems revolve around the caddie double-bagging.

[Jason Walker]

I'm with you there JC.  The caddies at my club are mostly high school mules, plus I'd never think of asking the kid to carry a sixer, not that kind of place.  That's a vacation move.    Cool part about Calusa is our buddy wasn't even there, he was still in NJ.  Definitely was impressed, caddies and everyone else.  First rate.

[Scott Warren]

Duncan Cheslett:

Do caddies really still exist? I assumed they were a throwback to the Edwardian era when players were 'gentlemen' and caddies were 'serfs'. I would feel very uncomfortable with the arrangement; just as I feel uncomfortable when someone carries my bags to a hotel room for me.

Like you, before I ever played with a caddie, I wasn't sure it would be for me, but having done so a few times now I am converted.

Perhaps in days gone by, or even now for people with such a mindset, it was a case of the caddie being a servant. But for me, it feels like he and I are a team - there was no feeling from any of the caddies I've had that they were below me, but maybe it's a matter of personal persepctive and some people do feel that way still.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but all my caddie experiences have been quite positive.

[JNC Lyon]

Duncan Cheslett:

Do caddies really still exist? I assumed they were a throwback to the Edwardian era when players were 'gentlemen' and caddies were 'serfs'. I would feel very uncomfortable with the arrangement; just as I feel uncomfortable when someone carries my bags to a hotel room for me.

Like you, before I ever played with a caddie, I wasn't sure it would be for me, but having done so a few times now I am converted.

Perhaps in days gone by, or even now for people with such a mindset, it was a case of the caddie being a servant. But for me, it feels like he and I are a team - there was no feeling from any of the caddies I've had that they were below me, but maybe it's a matter of personal persepctive and some people do feel that way still.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but all my caddie experiences have been quite positive.

Scott,

Even if caddies were considered "servants" in days gone by, many, including Hagen, Nelson, Hogan, Snead, and Ouimet, all became some of the world's greatest players because of caddying.  Would they really look back on their caddie days as oppressive?


Honestly, how can anyone believe that caddies are anything but critical to the development of the golf.  Most of the top players from Scotland and the United States came from the caddie ranks.  Sure, folks can point out that players like Bobby Jones and Jack Nicklaus came from the privileged upper classes, and they can add that most top junior players today attend the Leadbetter Academy and play at high-priced private clubs.  But do we want to draw our best players from only the most privileged classes? We never have in the past, so why should we in the future?

Caddying is NOT servitude.  It is, and has always been, an opportunity to learn the game of golf and pull oneself out of the lower classes and into success.  CADDYING IS GOLF'S AMERICAN DREAM.  There is nothing better that golf can contribute to the world.

[Kris Shreiner]

JNC,

Very well put! It's not only the American Dream, it's the world's gift from golf! Even in today's modern era, look at Argentina, Paraguay, India and China. All have seen some of their best players, often caddies from modest means,  win at the game's highest, competitive levels. This spurs interest and belief to the youth and others in those respective nations, that golf can improve their situation and sustain a lifetime of enjoyment from the sport. And how about the countless others, who function daily in other needed capacities, within and outside the game, that cut their teeth earning while learning many of life's lessons as caddies.

The inconsistent experiences some on this site and in general, those that have taken caddies are often subject to...is generally the result of poor resoursce commitment or management of the caddie program. Anything done well is an art; caddying is no different. It taking solid mentoring and training to quickly master the skills necessary for competent caddying.

The complaints of those having to share their caddie in a double-bag situation are easily solved. Work WITH the caddie to ease their task. They aren't a donkey out there, you're hopefully getting good information and enjoyable company during the round. If the caddie does a poor job, make the best of it and make your feelings known gently and where prudent. It's not an easy job and if you've ever done it well, you would have far more understanding of what's involved and be less critical.

Cheers,
Kris

[John Kavanaugh]

The biggest problem for guys who bitch about caddies is worrying for four hours how much it is gonna cost.  I know exactly what I am going to pay a caddie before the round ever starts.  I refuse to let anyone in the service industry play me for the asshole by stiffing them on a tip, let them blame their wives, bosses and general standing in the community for their lousy lives. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I have committed to walking more (ten rounds by July) and eight of those rounds will be while playing alone.  I can carry 9 clubs then because I also believe it is cheating to post scores with no witnesses.  Also I prefer to only hole out birdie putts when playing alone, I ain't bending over to pick no bogey out of a golf hole.

There is no doubt in my mind I could score better with 20 clubs than 14.  There are times when a seven wood can do what a 4 iron can't and visa versa.  I also wouldn't mind carrying two drivers(downwind and forewind) and three putters and a 2.5 wood like the old Spaulding Top Flight I had as a kid, or even a laminated 4 wood that feathers the ball unlike steel or 6 wedges instead of 4. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I can carry 9 clubs then because I also believe it is cheating to post scores with no witnesses. 

Boy, do I disagree with this.  There actually is a witness.  It's YOU.  You're smart enough to figure out the rest.

Then call me a cheater because I play far to well when playing alone to post those scores.  When playing alone I am like one of those guys who can only hit the ball on the range.  I remember one time when playing with my five year old, not a witness, birdying the first five holes and then the next week getting a hole in one with him in the cart.  The bigger the crowd the worse I play be it one, two or the circulation of the local paper.

[John Kavanaugh]

I bet posting scores while playing alone is how Duran got to a 7.8 index.  He gets so pissed at waiting on himself to hit he can't concentrate.

[Mike Tanner]

I'm a walk-and-carry golfer and have been since I took up the game some 30-odd years ago. Living in southeastern Virginia, hills are not issue for the majority of the rounds I play. Long walks between greens and tees just add to the time I'm away from the "real world." 

During the last few years, I've become much less of a snob about walking. I just wish more people who use carts would use them expeditiously— go to the first ball, drop off the player, drive to the second ball and let the first player walk to cart while the second golfer plays his shot. And with advancing age, I can see that if it came to a point where I had to choose between cart golf or no golf because of a physical infirmity, I'd be a cart golfer.

I hope I never get to that point. For me, walking provides the greatest enjoyment of the game. The pace of play, the opportunities for camaraderie within my group, and the  appreciaton for nuances in the course design are all enhanced when there's turf under my feet instead of a plastic seat under my butt.

[Joe Grasty]

I like to walk, but I always use a push cart, as my back just can't go 18 holes while carrying.  I've never played on a course that had caddies, so I can't comment whether I would like having one or not.

The course I live on allows walking, but no push carts, so I've never walked it.  It would be a great walk, too, but since push carts aren't allowed, I've always taken a cart.

I don't walk during the summer here in Texas, it is just too damn hot.

[Pete Lavallee]

Mac,

I plan on walking more but if I do it will be with 14 clubs. If I post scores using 9 clubs and then compete against my friends using 14 I would be cheating.  If I only use 9 clubs competing I would be cheating my partner. I have nothing against walking I only refuse to become a cheater to do it.  

It's not cheating per se, but I get your point.  

True story, we had a loose cannon at Balboa who switched to a 54" driver back when they were legal. He was a short, straight hitter that instantly joined the 300 club; he went from a 7 to a 1. When they restricted drivers to the current limit he was livid and rebelled by playing with only a standard driver, 8 iron and wedge; which he putted with! The Mens Club asked the SCGA what they should do, as he could establish a fairly high handicap and then switch back to 14 clubs during a tournament. They wrote a detailed letter saying we should not issue him a handicap through the Men's Club.

[JC Jones]

4-4. Maximum of 14 Clubs

a. Selection and Addition of ClubsThe player must not start a stipulated round with more than 14 clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than 14 clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed 14.


Looks like the USGA thinks it is a maximum, not a minimum.  Therefore, a handicap established with 3 clubs is as valid as one established with 14 clubs.  It may not be in the spirit of the game, but we've already established the rules aren't there for that.

[Carl Nichols]

I belong to a traditional parkland course that's a pretty easy walk. I almost always prefer to walk, but there's a strong social pressure to either use a caddie or ride--reinforced by a trail fee on weekend mornings--and some of the guys I play with don't want to pay for a caddie, so I end up riding.  Even though I'd rather walk, i will never do so if I'm the only guy in the group doing so.  I wish we had a stronger walkling culture.

[Jason Walker]

I'm going to ask some questions with the most innocent of intentions....but does the number of clubs in a golfer's bag really make a significant difference in one's ability to carry a bag??  For the life of me I cannot figure out any "advantage" to 10 clubs versus 14 as allowed by the rules of golf.  Further, I can't believe there are people who can't carry a bag full of clubs for 18 holes, versus having to trolley the bag around the golf course. I ask all this as someone who takes a cart for 50% of my golf, so I'm very familiar with the concept of lugging my bag around the course.  In fact, my everyday bag is a Titlleist Sunday Bag, but beyond the 14 clubs there's probably two gloves and maybe three-four balls, that's it.  It's nothing to carry it around, and I get HUGE smiles from the caddies at my club when I take one.

[Colin Macqueen]

Dear Jason,
A significant difference? Yep I think so........about half the weight. I really should get a very light bag though.
I am 61 years old, weigh 74 kilograms, have a weak left ankle and a dicky knee from playing soccer beyond a sensible age, tendonitis in my right elbow and an arthritic right shoulder. I have tramped around golf courses pulling my bag on a hand-cart for nigh on the last 50 years (half a bloody century by gad!).
Please cut me a bit of slack and allow me to carry only 8 or 9 clubs on the occasional walking round that I undertake.

The Boomerang mob will be expecting me to turn up in a bath chair after the above expose!

Laughing out loud,
Yours in perpetuity,
Colin

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Jason,

I am with you.

I am almost 50 years old and more than a few pound overweight. yet I have never once considered removing clubs from my bag beyond the full assortment. It has never even entered my mind.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jason,

I am with you.

I am almost 50 years old and more than a few pound overweight. yet I have never once considered removing clubs from my bag beyond the full assortment. It has never even entered my mind.

Malcolm,

Why not?

Doesn't the use of fewer clubs make you a better player?

Bob

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Bob,

Yes and No.

I could play with fewer clubs without a problem. But would have to play an assortment of full-swing, 3/4 swing and half swing shots. Certainly do-able.

Yet, I am pretty confidant in my distances with the full swing approaches and feel no discomfort in carrying 14 clubs so, why bother.

Malcolm

[Colin Macqueen]

Malcolm,
Why bother to carry fewer clubs?
Quite simply because I am getting older, breaking down, cracking up, take anti-inflammatorys on a daily basis, take non-prescription pain-killers to get around (intend to meet Mac Plumart at some point and get really good ones!!) and am becoming, generally speaking, worn out.  Beware .....it comes to us all eventually.  I am also, probably, getting bored or why else would I be responding!!!!!

Cheers Colin

[Jim_Kennedy]

4-4. Maximum of 14 Clubs

a. Selection and Addition of ClubsThe player must not start a stipulated round with more than 14 clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than 14 clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed 14.


Looks like the USGA thinks it is a maximum, not a minimum.  Therefore, a handicap established with 3 clubs is as valid as one established with 14 clubs.  It may not be in the spirit of the game, but we've already established the rules aren't there for that.

JC,
You can play casually or in an event with less than 14 clubs, but playing with three clubs does not allow you establish a valid handicap.

5-1f   Unacceptable Scores
(v) When, as a condition of the competition, the maximum number of clubs allowed is less than 14, or types of clubs are limited as, for example, in a competition that allows only iron clubs.

Handicap's are based on the premise that a player will be trying to make the lowest score on every hole of every round that they play. No one on the planet can give themselves the best chance to do that if they only use three clubs.

Don't ask me what's an acceptable minimum number of clubs, but if you played without your putter you wouldn't be adhering to the 'lowest possible score' ideal. Same thing if you play a 7,00 yard course without any 'woods'. 

[Bob_Huntley]

Jim,

Did you ever see Seve play with just a five iron?

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,
No, and I wish I had seen that in person, but Seve wasn't posting scores for handicap purposes.

If we agree that an 'average' male player who hits driver 220 and 3-wood 180 can potentially reach a 400 yard par 4 in two we'd also have to agree that he's not doing that if he leaves his driver at home. He'll be chipping his third vs. putting for bird, which negatively impacts his chance of playing up to his potential.    

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