I was thinking about

[Patrick_Mucci]

golf holes where the challenge is significant, but, fun to meet, on the drive and approach.
And, on the drive, second and approach on par 5's.

Holes where the golfer, from the tee, is first faced with a series of choices, including some fraught with substantial risk.

A challenge where theres significant danger in the DZ.

And then, once the golfer has made his choice and executed his drive, he's left with another challenging choice, be it on a par 4 or par 5.

All too often, the challenges presented by the architect are mundane, not really, really thrilling.

The more I thought about it the more I liked the challenge presented by centerline features, because you can't really "bail" to a safe side, you have to plan and execute properly just to get to the safe side if that's your choice.

The hole that kept coming to mind, time and time again, was # 8 at NGLA, "Bottle", with that strip of angled, centerline bunker, flanked on both edges of the fairway by additional bunkers.  The visual from the tee is very intimidating.

As challenging as the drive is, it becomes even more challenging when the wind is up, or the air "heavy"

A drive that finds the fairway, gives the golfer a thrill, he's escaped difficult bunkers, and is in the fairway, preparing for his next shot.

But, that shot is fraught with danger, risk-reward.

The safer side of the fairway, the wider side is the lower, more canted side.
The riskier part of the fairway, the narrower side is the upper side, the flatter side.

But now, the golfer is faced with a green that sits high above him, with a very steep drop off to the right and short, bunkers and hillocks and humps left.  Long has its own problems.

The visual on the approach is again.... intimidating

The green looks like the right side falls off the edge of the earth.
Hole locations right are ferocious looking, especially from the wider part of the fairway.

clubbing with an elevated green is more difficult, judging, and accounting for wind and elevation, unsettling.

So, why to I love playing this hole ?

Why could I play it 100 times a day and enjoy every play, irrespective of my score ?

Is it because there ARE 100 ways to F__K it up, with danger lurking at the slightest misjudgement and/or mishit ?

There are a good number of holes where one is challenged, mentally and physically on a particular shot, be it drive or approach, but, how many par 4's challenge you on both ?

How many par 5's challenge you on all three ?

And, how many of those can really punish an errant approach or second shot on a par 5 ?

What holes present this type of challenge, a challenge you love to meet, over and over and over again.

I would imagine the the 13th at ANGC and the 18th at NGLA fall into that category.

[David_Elvins]

Pat,

Nice post.

I think there is something about holes where the every golfer is able to decide what their challenge is and whether they want to take it on.  They are the holes that arechallengingbut fun.  Too many holes have the architect dictating exactly what they consider the challenge to be.  On these occasions, to some it is an impossible and daunting challenge, and to others, no challenge at all. 

Centreline hazards, diagonal hazards, half par holes, and cleverly orientated and sloped greens let almost all players select a challenge for their ability. 

With regard to centreline hazards, There are some really good centreline hazards that do have a safe side to bail to. 

The 2nd at St Andrws Beach, and 15th at barnbougle are two examples where a big bailout area to the left leaves a a very difficult second shot, giving the player a choice as to where he wants to take risk and leaving him doubt his decision when he fails to execute. 

[Wade Whitehead]

Pat:

I enjoyed this post.

Ballyhack begins with a wonderfully devilish par four that fits your description well.  It's the only course I can think of (right now) that begins with such fury and fun.

WW

[Bill_McBride]

14, the Long Hole on the Old Course at St Andrews, is my favorite par 5 in the world.  As you said, there is a challenge for every golfer on each shot, with many options and many ways to F__K it up you mentioned!

It's not long enough for the pros these days, even with a new tee built OOB on the Eden course.  At the 2005 Open I sat and watched the hole for the better part of six hours over three days, and NEVER saw a player challenged by the Hell bunker.

But I suspect it might be a different story if the wind turned and blew out of the South!

[Mike_Trenham]

#1 Sandhills is my first choice on this measure.

I am not going to say that UVA's Birdwood is great but ALL of the par fives pass this exam, they are the strength of that course.

[Mark Chaplin]

What's the difference between a hole that is challenging and fun and one that is challenging and not fun?

WW - I disagree this type of post seems to present the opportunity to inform everyone of the great venues they've played.

Fun surely is a personal perception than cannot be designed. Eye candy views may however influence our perception.

[Doug Siebert]

Challenging and not fun = penal.

A par 5 with a narrow fairway that has OB hard up against one side and dense forest/underbrush where you'll lose your ball for sure on the other side all the way from tee to green would definitely be challenging, but only Moe Norman would find it fun.

[David_Elvins]

What's the difference between a hole that is challenging and fun and one that is challenging and not fun?

WW - I disagree this type of post seems to present the opportunity to inform everyone of the great venues they've played.

Fun surely is a personal perception than cannot be designed. Eye candy views may however influence our perception.

I think there is something about holes where the every golfer is able to decide what their challenge is and whether they want to take it on.  They are the holes that are challenging but fun.  Too many holes have the architect dictating exactly what they consider the challenge to be.  On these occasions, to some it is an impossible and daunting challenge, and to others, no challenge at all.  
Centreline hazards, diagonal hazards, half par holes, and cleverly orientated and sloped greens let almost all players select a challenge for their ability.

[henrye]

I absolutely love this type of hole as well, but feel it's most effective when used sparingly on a course.  In other words, don't give me a course with 18 of these types of holes.  As for your example, Augusta #13 is a great hole, but the second is only intimidating if you go for the green.  Nothing too tough about a lay-up & wedge.  The dynamics of match play on a hole like this make it great fun.

[Mark Pearce]

The first hole that sprung to my mind was the 4th at Royal St Georges but then I read Chappers' post, so I'll substitute it with what, I suspect, will be one of the few par 5s that might qualify, the 16th at Pennard (it's possible to argue that the 17th qualifies as well but I suspect I'd be subjected to howls of indignation from all those who lost balls there last September).  Playing into the wind that hole (the 16th) requires 3 perfectly judged, thrilling shots to find the putting surface.  The fact that there's then something like a 75% chance of 3-putting (based on my rough empirical study of my and others efforts during BUDA) only adds to the magic of that hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

Wayne,

Hell, wouldn't you put the second at Ballyhack in this category?  A drive that leaks a bit right goes down into that lower fairway...still playable, but intimidating.  The bunkers are present and intimidating, but fairly harmless.  The second shot moves down a narrowing fairway, with a seeing-eye bunker just short of the green.  You can go left of bunker or right of bunker (or over the top if your balls are solid).  Just a great, fun, challenging hole.

[Adam Clayman]

Should there be a commensurate number of ways to play the task at hand with the number of ways to F it up?  And Patrick, why limit the number to 3 shots that challenge in an awe inspiring way. Shouldn't the putting challenge be added to your assements above? (Implies interesting green)

[Chris_Clouser]

I think this is one of the things that differentiates Pete Dye from many of his contemporaries.  I've played several of his courses where the par 5s challenge you on all three shots, especially in this current stage of his career.  A lot of the modern (post 1950) courses I have played seem to either challenge only off the tee and/or the green, but in between they are devoid of doing anything but advancing the ball up the hole.  To be fair though there are several of his earlier courses that I have seen in Indiana where he didn't do this either, so this must be something that he evolved towards over his career.  Also, it appears that most of these seem to follow a similar pattern now that I think about it.

Are thoughtful par 5s the most difficult part of a course to design, espcially in an original as opposed to a formulaic method?  There would seem to be so many variables involved, along with the amount of space to cover, that I could see how this would be truly difficult on a consistent basis.

[Mark McKeever]

I know it's not the most popular, but the 12th at Linfield National is a good challenge for 3 (or possibly 2) straight shots. 

The tee shot you are faced with a choice to lay short/right of a couple fairway bunkers and make it a 3 shot hole.  Or you can carry the bunkers and thread the needle between OB and a waste area to have a look in 2.  You will be about 200-220 out with a good tee shot from the correct tees. 

Your layup is supposed to be placed in a small layup area about 140-100 yds out, but must be placed perfectly between a hillside of high grass and a pond to the left which wraps around and fronts the green.

The third shot is with a short iron/wedge to a green with two very distinct tiers.  The back tier is very very small and runs away from you.  Its a very tough shot to find the back level.  The front is the easiest and provides a backboard.  (I witnessed a double eagle on this hole a few years back by a person using the tier as a backstop).  The front tier is no easy task either as it has a pretty significant slope to it.

I worked at Linfield National during my high school days/into college and have played the course more times than most.  Every time I get to that tee I know I need to put a few good shots together, "or else".  I have carded everything from 3-9 on this hole and its one of the more strategy influenced holes on the course.

Mark

[Jaeger Kovich]

I struggle to come up with examples of par-5's that fit for all levels of golfers. I feel like you cant really include holes reachable in 2, because you lose out on the fun of one more interesting shot.. if I'm understanding this correctly.

For par-4's, I think Bethpage is a great place to look, perhaps with too many for most, but thats what makes it the Black.
#'s 5 and 12 certainly hold more than enough interest on both shots, and have plenty of heroic opportunity in drive zones, yet still require some of the longest most exacting 2nd shots no matter how good your drive was. I think #4 is close as par-5, but I dont think there is enough interest if you chose to lay up on your 2nd shot.

Ballyneal #17 I think fits as well. Even though it is one of my least favorite holes to play on the course, because of the way the slopes work so well with the angles and hazards, and the damn hole is so freakin hard, you are guaranteed to have at least 4 interesting shots.

I have to believe Pete Dye has a few on this list. I have only played his ocean course, but with his use of angles, interesting hazards and mental challenges, especially on the grueling back 9. The Ocean reminded me a lot of Bethpage, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if more of his work pops up on this thread.

One NYC public gem I can think of...  Split Rock #7

[Patrick_Mucci]

What's the difference between a hole that is challenging and fun and one that is challenging and not fun?

Probably repeat play.
The desire to play the hole again can't be minimized.
Many times we leave a course with little or no desire to play it again, other times we can't wait to go straight to the first tee and play another round.

WW - I disagree this type of post seems to present the opportunity to inform everyone of the great venues they've played.


I certainly can't post about holes I've never played, and, it's no secret that I've been playing NGLA for 30+ years.

Fun surely is a personal perception than cannot be designed. [/color]

Sure it can, and, you know it when you see it.

Eye candy views may however influence our perception.

Not if you have a perceptive eye for architecture and a good understanding of "play"

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's a par 5 at Wild Horse with a centerline bunker feature on the second shot, likewise, the 3rd hole at Hidden Creek, another par 5, recently introduced a center line bunker for the second shot.

The interest, fun and challenge increased exponentially at Hidden Creek from this fairly miniscule addition, this small hazard.

No longer could the golfer simply blast aware, concerned only about the flanking features on a very wide fairway.
That little bunker dramatically changed the view from the golfer's eye, concern, the need for planning and execution, and fortitude.

[John Shimp]

Pat
What about 5 at shinnecock for this?  Ackward drive, a second I struggle to play aggressively, and then a 3rd to a green that is large but sloppy to putt and bad if you miss.

[Adam Clayman]

Pat. Wild Horse has a few holes with the centerline feature. The 3rd, a par 5 has two, one 150 out and the other about 85 yards out. The par 5 14th hole features a Hell like bunker about 90 yards out and the penultimate, also a par 5 has one just right of center about 225 out and a bunker that's 125 out that's placed on the line of instinct while the faiway jogs around it to the left. The closer has three pot like bunkers strewn across the middle of the fairway all within 100 yards of the green. The 7th hole at both WH and Bayside have centerline features on short par 4's. I'd say its a re-occurring motiff throughout Dan and Dave's work.

[Ronald Montesano]

(what I originally meant to write...)

I WAS THINKING ... OF LATCHING ONTO AN ONBNOXIOUS TENDENCY AND THEN DRIVING IT TO THE DEATH, TO THE CHAGRIN OF OTHERS.

(when i think on such a tendency, I'll let you know.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat
What about 5 at shinnecock for this?  Ackward drive, a second I struggle to play aggressively, and then a 3rd to a green that is large but sloppy to putt and bad if you miss.

John,

It's certainly a wonderful hole, but, the prevailing wind helps you out and the flanking features are the predominant challenges on the drive and second shot.