[JR Potts]

I have been paying particular attention to a lot of green sites in Midwestern lay-outs of Late and can't help but notice the abundance of elevated green pads/sites.  Are these slight elevations requiring a slight run-up products of years of sand/soil/thatch build-up or are they a design element. 

I happen to prefer the look and playability of greens that site on grade with the fairway but I was curious why the alternative has become or was so popular and prevalent.

[Greg Chambers]

could be what you stated, or for drainage

[Jeff_Brauer]

Its a design element. Besides potentially better drainage, it gives depth to green side bunkers on flat ground, and usually makes the green a bit more visible.  It also disposes of fill from the necessary irrigation lake.

When lakes, the aerial game became fashionable/standard, I believe elevated greens did, too.  That said, Tillie was famous for them at places like Winged Foot, so it was't an entirely new idea in the 50's/

[Greg Chambers]

Jeff,

I hardly believe elevated green pads were the result of irrigation ponds.

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

Elevated green pads are a design element, but also a practical consideration.  You tend to see them more often on sites where the soils aren't ideal for greens maintenance, so I have to think that old-time architects were more prone to use them because of soils issues (rock, etc.).  Geoff Cornish, who worked nearly his whole career in New England, built not only greens but his bunkers above grade, to avoid getting into rocks which would be too costly for the modest budgets he usually worked with.

Winged Foot is pretty rocky, I'd guess that's why Tillinghast built elevated greens there.

Once you get to Chicago, it is less rocky, but maybe by then elevated greens were considered "proper" design.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I told this story before, but the Chicago phone book had several golf ads circa 1960 which touted "elevated greens" as a design feature, which 15 year old me took as a clue that their course was "professionally designed" as opposed to a mom and pop type deal, so I agree that RTJ and his style probably influenced a lot of people to build greens up.  Just a guess.

Of course, Chicago, with its clay soils and occaiasional springs, made it "safer" to build things up. I recall a Dick Nugent maxim was that the front of the green should be no less than 1.5 feet above the front grade, because it just didn't seem right to cut a green in when filling with USGA sand.

Killian and Nugent also built the fw bunekrs above grade, but mostly because they were more visible.

Greg,

Think what you want, but the cut and fill has to balance, and no one wants to haul dirt very far, either.  Once you generate the 30-45K dirt out of the required irrigation pond, it has to go somewhere.  If you look closely, you may notice more work near ponds, either higher greens or tees, or more fw features.

[Tom_Doak]

Of course, Chicago, with its clay soils and occaiasional springs, made it "safer" to build things up. I recall a Dick Nugent maxim was that the front of the green should be no less than 1.5 feet above the front grade, because it just didn't seem right to cut a green in when filling with USGA sand.

We very often cut a green down into the ground level at least a bit when we are building them, because we want them to look like they were sitting on grade instead of "built".  It is one of the things few people pick up on, which make our courses look different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Elevated greens solved a good deal of the drainage problems for the putting surfaces.

Elevated greens derive from the term "push-up" greens.

The site top soil and underlying soil may not have been conducive to growing grass and/or good drainage, the importing of good soil, for building putting surfaces often made more sense, but not when introduced at grade, but above grade, where drainage could be optimized.

In addition, as Jeff stated, the added elevation allowed for deeper, more pronounced, surrounding hazards, with grade alone being an obstacle to play.

It takes unique soil to build greens at grade.
GCGC has that unique soil because GCGC sits on the Hempstead Plain, the largest Prairie/Desert East of the Mississippi.
The sandy soil allows for rapid percolation and the modest slopes, properly used, allow for efficient surface flow off and away from the greens.  It also allows for the creation of deep pit bunkers, a unique feature in the Metro NY area.

[Mike Nuzzo]

It takes unique soil to build greens at grade.

The soils aren't required.
The designer, construction methods, the superintendent or grass selection can make them at grade too.
Cheers

[Jeff Goldman]

It takes unique soil to build greens at grade.

The soils aren't required.
The designer, construction methods, the superintendent or grass selection can make them at grade too.
Cheers

Possibly also, at the start, a low budget and rudimentary elements.  If you get a course started with 18 stakes on a sunday afternoon in 1916, you might end up with a few fairway extension greens with some hummus.

[Sean_A]

Man, I love grade level greens.  Sure elevated greens are wonderful and have their purpose, but many can start to look much of a muchness after a while.  Getting some variety in grade level greens really requires the archie hunt and figure out how to shape and bunker the site to add interest.  Below are some of my favourites at a course that doesn't garner much respect around here, but one which I think Colt did a great job in mixing modern and older style design:









Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

It takes unique soil to build greens at grade.

The soils aren't required.
The designer, construction methods, the superintendent or grass selection can make them at grade too.
Cheers

Possibly also, at the start, a low budget and rudimentary elements.  If you get a course started with 18 stakes on a sunday afternoon in 1916, you might end up with a few fairway extension greens with some hummus.

Jeff,

You'd need superior drainage otherwise the water would stand on the green, that's where push-up greens excelled, the surface water would run off the elevated green, not sit on it.  Without slope, greens would be difficult to play under wet conditions.

Do you know of any old courses with greens that are merely extensions of the fairways in the U.S. ?

[Phil McDade]

"Do you know of any old courses with greens that are merely extensions of the fairways in the U.S. ?"

Patrick:

Flossmoor (HJ Tweedie), dating to 1899, in suburban southern Chicago, has a bunch of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I was asking JEFF, the question

[JR Potts]

Phil,

I was asking JEFF, the question

I can crack this code.  1916....18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon....greens at grade.  That Mr. Bendelow and Olympia Fields South.

Interestingly enough though, Bendelow designed Medinah from 1924-1935....and we don't currently have more than two greens that sits flush at grade.  (someone could argue that 14 on Course 1 sits flush but it's an elevated hole so it's a stretch and that 8th hole on course 1 sits flush).

Has Medinah built up these pads over the years on all three courses or did Bendelow learn some new techniques from 1916 to 1925ish?  What other Bendelow courses has one played and what year was it built to help answer this question.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yesterday, I happened to see an old photo of Dallas Country Club near its origins about 1900.

Oddly, the greens looked to be just mowed out, right on grade, and the tees were all elevated about 5 feet with steep banks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I'd love to see that photo, can you post it.

Do you think the tees were elevated in order to provide the golfer a view of what he was confronting, architecturally, on the hole ?

If the greens were at grade, it wouldn't seem to be a drainage issue, therefore, that's the only reason I can think of for crafting steep elevated tees.

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