Course length/Appropriate tees

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

That may work for you -- but many people here in the States would object to playing one FORCED tee box. Take someone who is a low handicap type -- why should he have to play the miniature version of the course at say 6,300 yards -- when likely the test would be something longer than that. I personally don't want to play the puppy chow version of the course. The issue is not about the score dimension -- I just don't want to hit irons off tees followed by short irons time after time.

Scott, if a club can place a tee for women and one for the geezers and kids -- no reason why a champ tee is not provided. It's very e-z to determine if such a player opting for the tip tees has the game -- or not. And, so long as play is not held up I see no reason why such an option cannot be made available.

Pebble Beach, on one specific occasion I played it years ago -- had the one FORCED tee box for men and I don't want to play a hole like the 8th, 9th and 10th, to name three of PB's finest -- at distances that are int he range of 75-100 yards less than what they can play.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I dont understand this continued talk that "my opinion is only one that matters and what I think should happen should hapen to everyone"...... Some like it long some like it short....you must try and cater for all people and providing a range of tees does that, the problem only is that some pick their tees unwisely or get involved in a group wherby 3 want the backs and 1 guy really wants to play forward.

Many of you if you were in charge of a golf course would bust it so quickly, at the front end of running golf courses you really need to try and keep everybody happy there is simply no place for sticky rules anymore and you cant afford customers leaving for a better deal somewhere else, if groups wanna play at 7000 let them, if groups wanna play at 6000 let them. If you build a course at 6000 yards you will always be second best to a longer one.

30-35% of our male play is from the white tees and the rest is off the fronts (yellows).... we let the golfer choose, the only gripe I hear is from one player out of that four that finds it too hard and enjoys it more from the fronts but because his other 3 friends hit it further, thats where he plays. LIVE AND LET LIVE.

[Brian Marion]

Ok, so regardless of the reason and I think all here are valid reason for slow play, what can be done to speed up the players holding up others?

Every course seems to have one of two models:

The marshall who sits on the first tee box and never moves - more of a starter than a marshall.

The nazi marshall who manages to piss off every group on the entire course as he rides hole to hole yelling at everyone to pick up the pace.

I've always thought - regardless of reason, you have a starter at the first - then, a set marshall at the 5th green. The first group that comes through behind pace is asked to let the group(s) behind them through until it opens up. If they make the turn still behind, then they are asked to let more groups behind them play through.

Park another person on the 14th green and repeat the procedure.

In other words, if a group wants to hold up everyone, let everyone else play through them until a spot is open and they can move along. Just asking someone to speed up, isn't going to make a difference.

A few years ago I was plying Pebble with two great friends and it happenedtot one of the guys wedding day. We had the very first tee time off that day and got "the speech" from the PB starter. We played in 3:45. So, later in the day, if a round took more than say 4:15, someone was holding things up and it wasn't us. Look for that group and solve a lot of problems.

Of course, this all means course management has to really care........

[Jim Hoak]

It seems to me that a lot of the responses on this thread have focused--maybe selfishly--on what the writer wants for himself.  Those of us on GCA are avid golfers--I would guess--for the most part.  We will probably keep playing no matter what happens to the game.  But the game of golf is sliding downward in the United States based on any number of criteria--number of avid golfers, construction of courses, sales of equipment, etc.  Don't we as avid golfers have some obligation to support things that can help the game we love?  Or we will end up like tennis, supported only by a small clique of enthusiasts with little support from the general public.  As said on here, 35-year-olds are not supporting golf in mass as they have in the past--it's not too strong to say that golf is dying in the United States!  If it's not shorter courses, faster rounds, push to shorter tees, etc., what is it that can reverse this trend?  Answer that if you would as a lover of the game, not what suits your personal desires.

[Sean_A]

Matt

I didn't ignore any plea for education as way to speed up play.  Nor did I say more effective marshalling can't work.  In fact, I think both can help.  However, its these same two things which have been spouted my entire lifetime, yet things have gotten worse and we all must pay more for the priviledge.  I think its time to look for answers elsewhere and I see the length of courses as an issue which helps slow the game down.  Not only this, but some seem to want to leave the back tees open for everyone when we darn well know that few golfers should be back there.  To say this doesn't slow the game dramatically (walking back and forth to the tees for most courses, added shots because of length, added shots because of difficulty and added time just because these nimrods take a regular joe  game far too seriously) is to ignore basic facts.  Furthermore, to suggest 12 minutes for 1000 yards is all it costs is rubbish and anyone who sits down to think about it knows this to be the case.   

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The decline in golf in the States is really about the overall costs and the amt of time it takes to play it.

Gen X & Y don't see golf as "cool." Frankly, the golf industry has itself to blame -- they only focused on the
inner core of avid players (50+ rounds per year).

People also don't have the wherewithal to spend half of their available free time to play given all the other
things they need to do.

Fees are also a big part of golf's problems. I have driving ranges in my neck of the woods (NYC metro area) that
charge $14 for a jumbo basket of balls. $14 !!! That's more than a movie ticket and frankly little real quality
instruction is happening in the high schools to get people excited in playing.

Let me point out -- that my personal desires matter to me. I simply said that having a choice of tee boxes is not
what causes slow play - slow play happens because mgmt at most facilities tolerates it because they don't want
to upset the partrons -- especially the really bad tortoise types.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

For a very smart guy you are truly lost on this subject -- with all due respect.

You don't understand something quite basic -- most courses don't really engage in a proactive plan to fight slow play. The tees people play has nothing to do with that. Mgmt has allowed a tiny subset of selfish people to hog the total time spent at a course -- the rest who follow behind them are no different than motorists who must just hope something miraculous happens.

Searching for lost balls -- is one element -- other violations of etiquette are also at work. People don't play ready golf because they are too busy bullshitting on the phone and other distractions. Mgmt allows such behavior to continue.

The sad reality is that most courses don't know how to orientate their staff in how to handle customers -- they don't monitor play and many times they don't know where the bottlenecks consistently happen. Ditto when they make the golf course a huge tailgate party so people can eat and drink and who then cares about playing shots and moving along.

Sean, most players don't venture to the back tees -- they realize, especially if it's course of real toughness -- bethpage black is a good example -- they may play it once from the tips but after getting their butts kicked they run to the next frontal markers.

Most players, as many have posted here have confirmed -- likely handle their courses at the 6,000-6,500 yard range. The smokescreen on tee boxes is just that -- smoke and mirrors.

Mgmt is something you have just downplayed for the real cause on what is not happening. The own and run the course(s) -- they can institute a whole series of steps -- a number were mentioned by me and others -- that can get play moving. Let me point out that some people, as Doug so correctly noted, are just bad news accidents waiting to happen. In those rare cases -- refund their $$ and wish them well.

[Alex Miller]

Matt

I didn't ignore any plea for education as way to speed up play.  Nor did I say more effective marshalling can't work.  In fact, I think both can help.  However, its these same two things which have been spouted my entire lifetime, yet things have gotten worse and we all must pay more for the priviledge.  I think its time to look for answers elsewhere and I see the length of courses as an issue which helps slow the game down.  Not only this, but some seem to want to leave the back tees open for everyone when we darn well know that few golfers should be back there.  To say this doesn't slow the game dramatically (walking back and forth to the tees for most courses, added shots because of length, added shots because of difficulty and added time just because these nimrods take a regular joe  game far too seriously) is to ignore basic facts.  Furthermore, to suggest 12 minutes for 1000 yards is all it costs is rubbish and anyone who sits down to think about it knows this to be the case.   

Ciao

Sean,

We've all been sitting down and thinking about this, and there has been some agreement that 1000 yards, or 800, or whatever doesn't add that much time to a round of golf. We've explained why instead of bashing down other people's ideas without providing evidence to the contrary. So, I'll try to explain once again, and I'll do it in the frame of a low handicap player because they are the ones most affected by the proposal of closing the back tees.

Let's assume that there is no one in front of the player so there is no wait, that way we can effectively measure his pace. We can assume the low handicap player will reach or be near every green in regulation. So even by moving the tees up the low handicapper does not take less shots on the golf course, save for a few more missed greens than before. This will add no more than 5 minutes throughout the round because it doesn't take any longer to hit a chip than a putt. The golfer may hit ~5 more shots depending on the difference in yardage, and if he is an efficient player there's no reason to assume more impact than 5 minutes.

As for the walking aspect, if we were to assume a worst case scenario of each back tee being farther away from the next tee than the middle tee, we would assume the golfer has to walk an extra 1,600 yards (for a course which is 800 yards longer). This is the absolute worst case scenario as many holes have a back tee which is closer to the previous green and no time is added to the walk at all! Since average walking speed is 3.5mph, the player who has to walk back to every tee only adds 15 minutes to the round. And therefore in total a course which is 800 yards longer and routed quite poorly only adds 20 minutes to the round for the player playing the appropriate tees.

You may look at this and say, "See, 20 minutes I told you guys length was adding time played!" You would only be partially right. Length is still not the issue which slows down pace of play, for golfers will still play slowly no matter what tees they're playing from. By moving up the low handicapper, you're not solving anything because they weren't the problem in the first place (generally speaking of course). The problem is still from the guys with long pre shot routines, poor preparation for upcoming shots, and lackadaisical gate. They slow people down no matter what tee they're playing, so while I agree that golfers need to play the appropriate tee for their game, the real issue is the golfers and not the tees from which they play. Closing the back tees would solve very little and anger a good percentage of golfers.

Adios

[Garland Bayley]

Matt

I didn't ignore any plea for education as way to speed up play.  Nor did I say more effective marshalling can't work.  In fact, I think both can help.  However, its these same two things which have been spouted my entire lifetime, yet things have gotten worse and we all must pay more for the priviledge.  I think its time to look for answers elsewhere and I see the length of courses as an issue which helps slow the game down.  Not only this, but some seem to want to leave the back tees open for everyone when we darn well know that few golfers should be back there.  To say this doesn't slow the game dramatically (walking back and forth to the tees for most courses, added shots because of length, added shots because of difficulty and added time just because these nimrods take a regular joe  game far too seriously) is to ignore basic facts.  Furthermore, to suggest 12 minutes for 1000 yards is all it costs is rubbish and anyone who sits down to think about it knows this to be the case.   

Ciao

Sean,

We've all been sitting down and thinking about this, and there has been some agreement that 1000 yards, or 800, or whatever doesn't add that much time to a round of golf. We've explained why instead of bashing down other people's ideas without providing evidence to the contrary. So, I'll try to explain once again, and I'll do it in the frame of a low handicap player because they are the ones most affected by the proposal of closing the back tees.

Let's assume that there is no one in front of the player so there is no wait, that way we can effectively measure his pace. We can assume the low handicap player will reach or be near every green in regulation. So even by moving the tees up the low handicapper does not take less shots on the golf course, save for a few more missed greens than before. This will add no more than 5 minutes throughout the round because it doesn't take any longer to hit a chip than a putt. The golfer may hit ~5 more shots depending on the difference in yardage, and if he is an efficient player there's no reason to assume more impact than 5 minutes.

As for the walking aspect, if we were to assume a worst case scenario of each back tee being farther away from the next tee than the middle tee, we would assume the golfer has to walk an extra 1,600 yards (for a course which is 800 yards longer). This is the absolute worst case scenario as many holes have a back tee which is closer to the previous green and no time is added to the walk at all! Since average walking speed is 3.5mph, the player who has to walk back to every tee only adds 15 minutes to the round. And therefore in total a course which is 800 yards longer and routed quite poorly only adds 20 minutes to the round for the player playing the appropriate tees.

You may look at this and say, "See, 20 minutes I told you guys length was adding time played!" You would only be partially right. Length is still not the issue which slows down pace of play, for golfers will still play slowly no matter what tees they're playing from. By moving up the low handicapper, you're not solving anything because they weren't the problem in the first place (generally speaking of course). The problem is still from the guys with long pre shot routines, poor preparation for upcoming shots, and lackadaisical gate. They slow people down no matter what tee they're playing, so while I agree that golfers need to play the appropriate tee for their game, the real issue is the golfers and not the tees from which they play. Closing the back tees would solve very little and anger a good percentage of golfers.

Adios

+1

[Jim Hoak]

Alex--Your analysis is very thoughtful and interesting.  But doesn't that assume that only very low handicaps play the back tees?  I wish it were so.  But we all know that most of the people back there have no business being there--and they are only there because of ego, or wanting "to play the whole course," or because they feel it would screw up the bet if they played different tees than the others.  Maybe there needs to be a handicap requirement for the back tees for your anlaysis to be correct?

[Garland Bayley]

Alex--Your analysis is very thoughtful and interesting.  But doesn't that assume that only very low handicaps play the back tees?  I wish it were so.  But we all know that most of the people back there have no business being there--and they are only there because of ego, or wanting "to play the whole course," or because they feel it would screw up the bet if they played different tees than the others.  Maybe there needs to be a handicap requirement for the back tees for your anlaysis to be correct?

Mssr. Hoak,

Alex's analysis is correct even when high handicappers play the back tees. If it weren't for the horrible example of how this game is played given by tour pros and low handicappers grinding for a score, high handicappers would understand playing fast, and do it. So what if the high handicapper takes 20 extra shots. At 10 seconds each, he is adding about 3 whole whopping minutes to the round.

[Anthony Gray]

Alex--Your analysis is very thoughtful and interesting.  But doesn't that assume that only very low handicaps play the back tees?  I wish it were so.  But we all know that most of the people back there have no business being there--and they are only there because of ego, or wanting "to play the whole course," or because they feel it would screw up the bet if they played different tees than the others.  Maybe there needs to be a handicap requirement for the back tees for your anlaysis to be correct?

Mssr. Hoak,

Alex's analysis is correct even when high handicappers play the back tees. If it weren't for the horrible example of how this game is played given by tour pros and low handicappers grinding for a score, high handicappers would understand playing fast, and do it. So what if the high handicapper takes 20 extra shots. At 10 seconds each, he is adding about 3 whole whopping minutes to the round.

  I agree 100% Garland

  16.7 Index

[Bill_McBride]

Alex--Your analysis is very thoughtful and interesting.  But doesn't that assume that only very low handicaps play the back tees?  I wish it were so.  But we all know that most of the people back there have no business being there--and they are only there because of ego, or wanting "to play the whole course," or because they feel it would screw up the bet if they played different tees than the others.  Maybe there needs to be a handicap requirement for the back tees for your anlaysis to be correct?

Mssr. Hoak,

Alex's analysis is correct even when high handicappers play the back tees. If it weren't for the horrible example of how this game is played given by tour pros and low handicappers grinding for a score, high handicappers would understand playing fast, and do it. So what if the high handicapper takes 20 extra shots. At 10 seconds each, he is adding about 3 whole whopping minutes to the round.

Haven't paid much attention to this but wondering who plays each shot in ten seconds?  And surely some of those 20 extra shots are going into a hazard or the rough.  Three minutes has got to be way underestimated.

[Garland Bayley]

Alex--Your analysis is very thoughtful and interesting.  But doesn't that assume that only very low handicaps play the back tees?  I wish it were so.  But we all know that most of the people back there have no business being there--and they are only there because of ego, or wanting "to play the whole course," or because they feel it would screw up the bet if they played different tees than the others.  Maybe there needs to be a handicap requirement for the back tees for your anlaysis to be correct?

Mssr. Hoak,

Alex's analysis is correct even when high handicappers play the back tees. If it weren't for the horrible example of how this game is played given by tour pros and low handicappers grinding for a score, high handicappers would understand playing fast, and do it. So what if the high handicapper takes 20 extra shots. At 10 seconds each, he is adding about 3 whole whopping minutes to the round.

Haven't paid much attention to this but wondering who plays each shot in ten seconds?  And surely some of those 20 extra shots are going into a hazard or the rough.  Three minutes has got to be way underestimated.

Here is how I often play. Walking with a push cart. While approaching the ball the shot is already determined and the club drawn. Upon reaching the ball, the cart is given a shove. Take stance, and hit shot. Catch cart shortly after it has stopped rolling, and you are on your way. 10 seconds was an over estimate. Putts are read while walking up to the ball from behind. Take stance, and stroke putt. 10 seconds was an over estimate.

I played in a 9 hole scramble yesterday. My playing partners wanted me to wait while they got yardages from the GPS (even on their home course on par 3s), wait while they read the putts, and pointed to places (wrong places) on the green. Frankly they put me out of my rhythm and caused poor performance as I could not help thinking about how them making me wait was going to ruin my rhythm, and we know the worst club in my bag is my head. It takes them longer to read their device than it takes me to hit the shot. We made two birdies. Those were on the holes where I hurried to the ball and stroked the putt into the hole before anyone else could get there. I would estimate them at 5 and 12 feet.

[Alex Miller]

Alex--Your analysis is very thoughtful and interesting.  But doesn't that assume that only very low handicaps play the back tees?  I wish it were so.  But we all know that most of the people back there have no business being there--and they are only there because of ego, or wanting "to play the whole course," or because they feel it would screw up the bet if they played different tees than the others.  Maybe there needs to be a handicap requirement for the back tees for your anlaysis to be correct?

Mssr. Hoak,

Alex's analysis is correct even when high handicappers play the back tees. If it weren't for the horrible example of how this game is played given by tour pros and low handicappers grinding for a score, high handicappers would understand playing fast, and do it. So what if the high handicapper takes 20 extra shots. At 10 seconds each, he is adding about 3 whole whopping minutes to the round.

Haven't paid much attention to this but wondering who plays each shot in ten seconds?  And surely some of those 20 extra shots are going into a hazard or the rough.  Three minutes has got to be way underestimated.

True, that is probably underestimated. We are, however, discussing a player who is not slow. Assume 30 seconds for each shot, which is plenty even for hazards and rough, and that's still 10 minutes. Not a huge number. Now consider if a 20 handicapper wants to play the back tees, if they walk just slightly above average pace and play in a manner which we would all be proud I would have NO problem with him going back there.

Do understand that I still believe players should play from tees appropriate for them, but my main point is that the yardage of the course is not the cause of slow play.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim Hoak:

Who cares where people play provided they keep up with the group in front of them ?

Let me point out that forcing low handicap players who happen to hit the ball a good ways to play from middle or frontal markers will only slow play down as they will need to wait until the players in front are out of range.

One additional item -- if staff personnel are observing play as they should -- and if it becomes clear that a person who clearly should not be on the back tees is dragging things along -- the proper intervention can right the wrong.

Slow play overall, not tee usage, is the major element involved here. Just my opinion.

[Doug Siebert]

Adrian,

I never understood the people who think that within a group of golfers, everyone has to play from the same tees.  I've played in groups where all four people played from different tees, and this didn't cause an issue or slow anything down.  I suppose it is peer pressure of a sort, if you have three playing from one tee and the fourth from another, but those who worry about it need to get over it.


I've never understood why courses in GB&I mostly restrict men to a single teebox without any option to play elsewhere.  When I played Muirfield, the par 4s all played from the Open tees, and the par 5s all played up (the 9th was played as a 465 yard par 4, so was more difficult against par than had they used the Open tees)  This was fine for me, as while I'd have preferred to play back on the 5s as well, given a choice I'd rather play the proper 4s.  But it was hell on my dad, as he couldn't reach the fairway on a few of the par 4s.  They had some green tee markers playing up on the 5s, but not on the 4s for some reason.

Typically you see courses there playing everything well up, the only exception allowing you to play the tees of your choosing are newer courses like Kingsbarns and Old Head.  On my first visit I recall several courses let me play back after showing a handicap card demonstrating a handicap of 8 or less, but on my second visit that didn't seem to be an option anymore.  Maybe too many vanity handicaps, or just plain made up handicaps for people who were gaming the system to play the tees where they play the Open from.

[Niall C]

Doug

I think you will find that a lot of clubs now are happy to let golfers play off whatever tee they wish. I've no idea how many in percentage terms but there has undoubtedly been a bit of a sea change in this regard and I think the reason is down to agronomy as they were finding that there championship tees which they previously kept for special comps weren't getting played enough and were going soft. Having said that I doubt Muirfield, TOC or Carnoustie will have relaxed their rules but quite few others have.

Matt hits the nail on the head when he says it doesn't matter what tee a golfer plays off as long as he keeps up with play, and that doesn't mean only top golfers playing off the back tees. I know a few average players who are happy to play off the tips on SOME courses because they aren't long enough to reach the trouble and therefore the course is easier.

Niall

[Jud_T]

From the Golf House Club, Elie:

Slow Play & Etiquette
The enjoyment of a round of golf can be destroyed by slow play. Please be aware of players in front and behind you and if you are holding players up behind you and there is a gap of a hole in front of you then please let the players behind play through. As a guideline a fourball game should take no longer than three hours forty minutes.Slow play usually results from failure to clear the green promptly or from being unprepared to play your shot immediately it is your turn. Your co-operation in eradicating this malaise will be greatly appreciated.

[Brian Marion]

Listening to Brian Katrek and Matt Adams XM shows this morning and they featured a "if you could change the rules, which one" series of segmets.

Almost every caller stated they would change rule "x" because it would help speed up the game and today's game is too slow and takes too long.

Out of bounds stroke and distance

Ready golf vs proper rotation of players

lost ball rule

etc

So it's just not us who think the game needs to move faster

[Doug Siebert]

The funny thing is that very few people really do walk back to the tee to play another one if they lose their ball or discover it was OB when they assumed it wasn't.  Even the people who will play a provisional.  So I really can't see that changing those rules would speed up play.

Maybe change the 5 minutes to look for your ball to 1 minute?  On some courses standing on the tee watching the group ahead look for one or more balls is happening on just about every hole, making a five hour round a speedy trip around the links!

[Matt_Ward]

All of this talk about individuals and what they can do to speed things along is fine but again the onus is on mgmt -- they own and manager the facilities in question.

It is hard for me to fathom if mgmt really cares about getting players around for them NOT to have key on-course personnel stationed at the usual places where back-ups develop.

Once the players realize that mgmt is serious about slow play being stopped it's no different than people slowing down their cars when they realize the law is out there -- consistently.

People, unless herded like cattle, will wander and do whatever else -- sometimes forgetting about the actual playing of the game -- that comes to mind.

For some reason, especially here in America, there is this bizarre belief that once a person pays for their round of golf they are entitled to do just about anything.

[Jeff_Brauer]

RE: playing from different tees, I was once in a mixed foursome at Carnoustie, and the forward/ladies tee was at a widely different angle than the main/men's tee.  It was cold, and the two ladies and us two men played tee shots at the same time to speed things up.

Other than taking up way more land, and not always being feasible in the routing, I have often wondered is simultaneous tee shots would speed play?  If not everywhere, then at the par 3 holes perhaps.

I do believe that in general, longer courses mean slower play.  Maybe not more waiting, but if there are 9-18 extra shots in their, it has to be a longer round.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

The issue is not the extra shots -- but the dawdling between shots / not being ready to play and the desire to down a Big Gulp every two holes w hot dogs and the like.

Mgmt needs to return the focus to THE GAME -- not the sideshow circus situations that have been inserted into the picture.

Sadly, here in the States we believe the golf course should be a multi-tasking situation whereby the golf game itself is just one of many different acticities that go on at the same time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

No doubt both contribute.  Emphasizing being ready to play is also a big key in my mind. 

When its my turn to hit, I have usually been planning the shot, and am ready.  I hate my partners not knowing its there time to shoot - starting in on some long joke or story, waiting until they are up to select a club, etc., or not even knowing its their turn because they are on the cell phone, peeing, or eating.

On the other hand, even without taking a practice swing on most shots, I have had partners complain that my pre-shot routine takes too long, and that I am the cause of slow play.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle to playing faster is all of our collective and stubborn belief that its only the other guys problem.