Course length/Appropriate tees

[Jason Topp]

Time matters to many people -- do a survey and ask them the following -- have a golf course of average design and be guaranteed no more than 3 1/2 hours to play versus a top tier layout that will take you 5 plus hours to play. Guess what many -- likely the majority -- will choose. Any guy married with kids knows the answer already.

I actually think more choose the 5 hour course in the real world.  My evidence is the green fees at mom and pop 6000 yard courses v. 7200 yard courses.  The market tells you which option the public chooses.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Float the idea to the wives of the guys and you will see what answer the guys will live by.

My idea was predicated on the situation I outlined -- time does matter to many -- especially when kids have soccer practices, wife wants to go shopping, etc, etc, etc.

If you or other are single golf bums then you have no problem in doing what you seek.

[Sean_A]

Matt

Its very convenient to assume the game is slow because of a few people that could be sorted out quite easily by marshall.  I wonder then why we don't see this as the cure all and instead see the time for golf continue rise right in step with rising course lengths.  There is no question some people are slow, but I would suggest that number is far greater than the odd guy who can be sorted out easily. In other words, the culture for 5 hiur games is already in place and a pace of play culture isn't determined at a course by a handful of people.  Its determined by how quickly or slowly a significant percentage of players play.  Sure, its a great concept to attack the problem from that angle when owners can figure how to do this without jeapardizing their business, but that in and of itself will not come close to achieving 4 hour rounds.  

Think about it, handicaps averages have remained similar over a great many yet course length has grown incredibly in my life time.  I can recall when 7000 yards was a monster course that one only saw on tv once in a while and usually for the US Open.  Now 7000 yards is laughed at for consideration as a long course.  Not only that but the proliferation if wanna be championship courses in the past 30 years is incredible.  It seems hardly any course built in this time period is less than 7000 yards as an option for Joe Blow to play, but 40 years ago it was much closer to 6500 yards which meant a lot of people played courses at around 6200 yards.  Jeez, that makes a is huge difference in terms of how long one would expect to take for a game of golf.  Finally, no matter how fast the bomber is, it is nearly always true that he could be faster from a set of tees 500 yards up.  

Ciao          

[Jim_Kennedy]

Green fees set to specific tee markers are not only an aid to drive players to the correct tee, they are good for business. Take women players, their participation rate is one of the lowest in the game. How many would be encouraged to take it up if the fees were set according to the length being played? I have little doubt that the answer is "more". How many established female players would recognize the extra value given them at a course that charges them 20% less than the player who "sees" 20% more of the golf course from the tips? Again, I say the answer is "more". Savvy shoppers that they are, they will always gravitate toward value and that could translate into a healthy boost for a course.

The idea translates for every category of player. The seniors who might be struggling a bit at 5,500 would be encouraged to move forward if it meant a 5 or 10% reduction in the fee, and the player who shouldn't be at the tip might be encouraged to move up a tee or two if it meant similar savings. It's smart marketing, with side benefits thrown in.

There are many types of incentives used to attract players, and they mostly have reduced fees as the hook. Using a staggered fee based on tee length is another viable plan to increase participation and encourage players to play from more suitable tees which can decrease the amount of time they spend on the course. That makes the experience more enjoyable for everyone.     

[Jud_T]

Not to mention kids, who are the lifeblood of the future of golf.  Nothing galls me more than a course that has no junior rate at any time regardless if the kid is scratch...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jud,
Didn't meant to overlook kids, I'm just not used to seeing courses that don't have a kid's rate.

[JR Potts]

 Finally, no matter how fast the bomber is, it is nearly always true that he could be faster from a set of tees 500 yards up.  

Ciao          

I don't think that's entirely true.  If those 500 yards bring a par 4 into play off the tee or a few par 5s into play on a second shot, the spacing and time spent waiting for the green to clear might actually slow down the game.

 

[Alex Miller]

All,

I would contend that most of the time someone who knows how to play quickly can play a hole that is 450 yards in the same amount of time as a hole that's 400 yards. Chances are that a 220 yard driver is hitting a shortish 3rd in to the green anyway, and if they know how to play efficient golf the extra yardage should not be an issue.

Slow play comes from excessive searches for balls, which arises thanks to sprayed tee shots; lengthy pre-shot routines; and poor preparation before it's their turn. Does the yardage of the course have anything to do with those? No, but unfortunately these are merely characteristics of the real problem.

The problem is people haven't learned the right way to play the game, and there is a right way. I'm sure 95% of those on here know and have known since we began playing that golf is a game which can be and should be played in a timely fashion, assuming you know what you're doing out there. The slow players have picked up the game without understanding what we do: there is a right way to play. They play their way, and while it's fun for them they're oblivious to the impact it has on the rest of us.

The solution to this problem cannot be achieved simply. It's not to banish golf carts or charge players to play the back tees. It's to make sure that those new to the game understand that they are sharing the course with an entire community. It's great that organizations like The First Tee emphasize character building aspects of the game, but I have no idea if they prepare kids to play the right way. I'm sure that's not their first priority, and neither should it be. But it is something that any and all programs involving young golfers should incorporate. Anyone trying to introduce someone to the game should try to make this idea a focus of theirs too. I've enjoyed plenty of rounds with golfers who couldn't break 100 to save their life, but paid attention and knew when it was their turn or when it was time to pick up.

There is no way to completely weed out slow play, but if there is an effort from the entire golfing community to educate, we can reduce the frustrations of slow play dramatically.

As for the point of this thread, I think there is an appropriate tee for each person, but I think the value placed on tees played is far greater than it actually merits as long as the golfer plays the right way. An extra 300 yards on the course is mostly walking distance which would've been walked anyways. A player may have 4-5 extra shots per round because of that 300 yards, so maybe the round takes 5 minutes longer. It's for the players with long pre-shot routines and poor preparedness that it adds 20-30 min. to the round.

-Alex

Is this post irrelevant, wrong, or just poorly timed? Anyone agree or disagree with the above?

[Mike_Trenham]

If the issue is guys wanting the full experience, cut down the maintenance, let the become crowned with weeds and bare spots and use some dingy tee markers or aerify them every 10 days.

Or

Back tees are of limits to cart riders.

Or

Your scorecard and picture is hung in the locker room

[Carl Johnson]

All,

I would contend that most of the time someone who knows how to play quickly can play a hole that is 450 yards in the same amount of time as a hole that's 400 yards. Chances are that a 220 yard driver is hitting a shortish 3rd in to the green anyway, and if they know how to play efficient golf the extra yardage should not be an issue.

Slow play comes from excessive searches for balls, which arises thanks to sprayed tee shots; lengthy pre-shot routines; and poor preparation before it's their turn. Does the yardage of the course have anything to do with those? No, but unfortunately these are merely characteristics of the real problem. . . .

-Alex

Is this post irrelevant, wrong, or just poorly timed? Anyone agree or disagree with the above?

Well, Alex, I agree with your analysis, and with your ideas about "how to solve the problem," with one caveat.  I think choosing the "right" tees, and therefore length, is somewhat important regarding speed of play when it comes to forced carries.  More lost balls, more searching for lost balls, and hitting more shots when a player cannot consistently make forced carries is an issue.  One of the GCA posts above spoke to that in connection with course design encouraging players to make the "right" tee choice in the first hole or two.  Also, as I suggested in more detail above, we need to encourage more playing on the course rather than against the course, the proper use of USGA HC procedures, match play over stroke play, and deemphasizing the medal score, which as posted usually isn't anything close to a real medal score anyway.  My sense is that this much closer to the golf culture in the British Isles than here in the USA, but I'm without any real home play experience over there to back it up.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Please allow me to help your own misunderstanding.

Mgmt runs the facility -- when they give away that reality / advantage and allow the few to dominate things with the tortoise parade what then happens is that slow play becomes INGRAINED. The tees played have no connection to that.

In America many facilities talk about slow play and that's where it stays -- just talk. I can tell you this -- mgmt runs quick to process one's credit card to play though -- but once you hit the tee it's out of their hands.

I've already articulated that when you have mgmt permit these huge carts stuffed with food and drink to parade around the course -- they encourage people to tailgate while playing -- the whole time spent is not about the game but about non-golf related entertainment.

Most mgmt groups do not adequately orientate their staffs on how to interact with customers. One doesn't need the Marine corps instructor bellowing to golfers -- but mgmt should convey consistently and without partiality a clear sense that being ready to play is a must and that slow players -- irrespective of the tees they play -- will not be tolerated. And, should you not be cited for such ill-mannered actions -- hand them their $$ back and admonish them to find another place to play. Those who do pay attention and do play when called upon will appreciate it even more and patronize the place accordingly -- likely with even more people in tow to make up for the ill-considered herd that can't understand what's needed.

Sean, wake up -- it's not that "some people are slow" -- in America it's far too many. That's why golf is not growing - the game takes way too long. Other needs have to be tended as well. Just ask any wife who lets her husband know this -- especially with kids in tow.

Mgmt at many American courses has allowed the tawdlers to become the main frame. Mgmt runs the asylum - or it should. Mgmt has allowed the inmates to dictate the outcomes and when they happens the whole essence of playing is defeated -- no matter what tees one plays.

You say it won't "come close to achieving 4 hour rounds" is, with all due respect, rubbish. The problem is that many mgmt companies have allowed othert distractions and poor decision-making to allow for the time increases we see today. I know of a few facilities that really stay on point regarding pace of play guidelines. When enforced consistently and across the board it works well.

Sean, you constantly bitch and moan about total course length growing -- but frankly the folks playing today don't even turn their heads for such tee markers. They are still playing at the same lengths they played earlier -- say in the 6,500 yard range. "Joe Blow," in using your name for him, never did play the course from the tips to start with. They are slow because mgmt allows a wide range of distractions and as Jud correctly called it -- a lack of basic etiquette to enter into the picture. When I started playing my Old Man made dam sure I knew what the etiquette was and there were staff people to reinforce this when playing. Now, it's plunk down the $$ and just go tailgate with golf as a sideshow event.

Mgmt is the primary source for slow play -- the tee debate that this thread is about is nothing more than a sideshow that's not at the core of the issue. Just my opinion.

[Keith OHalloran]

I know I am late to this thread, so I may have missed this point, but I think that personal pace of play is the problem, not distance. I am sure that many of you have played with Gene Greco, and would agree that he could play a 7500 yard golf course as quickly as most could play a 6000 yard course. If everyone would get to the ball hit it expeditiously, we would not have a problem.

Also, amatuers should not play stroke and distance on a lost drive. If you search for 5 minutes, please do not go back to the tee!

[Doug Siebert]

Sean,

I think Matt is right on in his responses to you.  As for whether it is a few people who are the problem or everyone is playing slow now, I think "it depends".  On some courses, either due to the design or due to the clientele, slow play is the norm.  If you can normally play in under four hours if you didn't have to wait and played regularly on a course where rounds were normally five hours, you might slow down in some ways to avoid annoying waits.  Perhaps you'd deliberate more over your putts, perhaps you'd always use the honor system when teeing off instead of allowing whoever is ready to go ahead, etc.  But if things changed and four hour rounds became the norm, you'd be able to adapt rather quickly.

If your course is one of many in the area, with little to distinguish it from the other options, being known as the course that kicks off slow players could end up being quite a benefit.  All else being equal, I'd play more often at such a course because I'd know I'm more likely play a bit faster, and don't have to worry about getting stuck five groups behind some idiots who have two holes open in front of them as they make the turn.  Slow players would hear about that course's policy (or be affected by it once) and would never return.  So it wouldn't take long before all the slow players would stay away on their own and the course wouldn't even have to actually kick very many people off once the word got out.

As for it being bad business to kick slow players off, obviously you can't kick off a quarter of your groups, so you just target the worst offenders.  If it is just a few percent who are affected I think it would be a very smart business move.  The idea of "the customer is always right" is a really dumb idea for business owners to have.  Yes, you need to accomodate customers the large majority of the time but in various businesses there may be a few percent of customers who end up costing you much more than the revenue you gain from them.  If you have a coffee shop and a couple guys buy a single cup and then take up a table all day using it as their "office", that's not a good thing for you.  If you have a clothing store and a couple women will spend several hours trying on dozens of items but always walk away having bought only one, that's not a good thing for you (unless maybe you are selling designer labels that cost in the four figures)

I own a sports bar/restaurant, and one of the first things I told my GM is to not be afraid to kick people out if they cause trouble.  If someone gets too drunk, is harassing other customers, or is looking to start to a fight, they will be told to leave.  If they refuse, the cops are called.  If you call the cops on someone they may never return, but I'm fine with that.  If they do return, they are very unlikely to repeat what they did previously - if they do they'll be kicked out for good.  I've always thought that if you tolerate people like that you might get a bit of extra revenue from that person and their friends, but you undoubtedly lose several times that from other customers who don't like that atmosphere and will not return.  This only has to be done a handful of times a year because the troublemakers prefer places that let them get away with this stuff, so they tend to congregate at places run by idiots who believe that you should never turn away a paying customer.

[Sean_A]

Doug

I think we have a basic difference of understanding about slow play.  I don't believe it is caused by the odd guy.  I think slow play is far more infectious than that and that a significant percentage of golfers are slow.  There are many causes for slow play, but there is no doubt in my mind that added length and increased difficulty are two of the main reasons.  I don't see any way to attack that angle other than to restrict access to tees somehow, or just build shorter, more golfer friendly courses.  I am not saying one can't try to aducate golfers on playing faster etc, but I haven't seen this approach work very well unless it is imbred in childhood.  A great many golfers are not what I would call keen.  They are marginal golfers that will happily do another activity.  Now, if you want to throw these golfers off your course that is your business because I bet a huge percentage are not playing quickly.  Running a bar is a totally different situation and not in the least comparable to a golf course.  First, I think your beligerent numbers are much lower than slow golfers on a golf course and second, beligerents are much easier to spot and third, I think a bar with rowdies is much more likely to receive police support than a call from a golf course saying the golfers are too slow, but refuse to leave.  Its not a coincidence that slow play has evolved along the same lines as the growth of the PGA Tour and the advent of longer, tougher, cart courses. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean your miles out on this one.

Length of course will add about 10-12 minutes over a 6000 yarder to 7000 yarder.

Slow Play exists on 6000 yarders too, its the minset of some to go through a pre shot routine that takes a anything from 15 seconds to 1 minute, over 40 strokes, thats 30 minutes, thats where most time gets lots.

Putting down the bag, trolley or leaving the cart in the wrong place is another big time adder.

[Sean_A]

Sean your miles out on this one.

Length of course will add about 10-12 minutes over a 6000 yarder to 7000 yarder.

Slow Play exists on 6000 yarders too, its the minset of some to go through a pre shot routine that takes a anything from 15 seconds to 1 minute, over 40 strokes, thats 30 minutes, thats where most time gets lots.

Putting down the bag, trolley or leaving the cart in the wrong place is another big time adder.

Adrian

I don't believe you are anywhere near correct.  I have watched the same guys over many years playing from varying tees.  I can tell you a 4ball adding 1000 yards to their course is alot more than 12 minutes extra time.  Shit, it can take a lot more than 12 minutes for a 4ball just to walk to the 7000 yard tees!  Or are we know going to say cart ball courses don't count in this comparison?  I think the difference is at least 30 minutes for the typical 7000 to 6000 yard course.  Now if we ratchet up the difficulty level (as have many modern courses have done) I don't think an extra hour is anything like uncommon.

Ciao

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Guys,

I think we're all right to some extent.  Slow play is caused by a myriad of factors, of which increased length of courses is one, but only one of a number of factors.  I wonder what the average round takes at the European Club or Waterville...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - Walking back to the tees is another issue, you must remember the times you walk forward to the front tees and the back tees are adjadecent to the previous green.

Carts in the wrong position so golfers walk off the greens and cause delay.

Longer courses is a longer walk by an large but (not that your going to be convinced) its not the prime problem of slow play. Some players play slow and if you get one group playing slow pace, it can ruin the day for 30 more groups.

Our first groups out might play in 3.45hr.... half way through the day they are up to 4.30 hr.... someone is slowing up play and yet they are walking the same pitch.

Length of course adds the same for everybody.... some people play slower than others and sometimes those players are good players.

[Philippe Binette]

I'd vote for shorter courses with hazards a little more penal... (bunkers you can't putt out from)

and the scottish solution... the starter is the guy that tells from which tee you're playing

[Niall C]

I'd vote for shorter courses with hazards a little more penal... (bunkers you can't putt out from)

and the scottish solution... the starter is the guy that tells from which tee you're playing

Phiippe,

Don't think that Scottish courses are immune from slow play, there are as many slow coaches on them as elsewhere and I would suggest that outwith St Andrews and a limited number of others no starters or marshals as such, just the pro in the pro shop to control who goes out when.

I can see Sean's point about length of courses contributing to length of play if not the pace of play, it just makes sense. However I agree totally with the coamp that says that its the way golfers go about playing the game these days that is the bigger factor. A combination of educating and re-educating golfers at large about the basics of etiquette, particualrly as they relate to slow play would be no bad thing. If this was done across the board with all golfers, no one would feel picked on. There's no use saying you need to play the course in 4 hours (whatever happened to 3 and a half or 3 hours even ?) without giving guidance on how to go about it. For many on this board, I would hope, they know to do the things Adrian refers to but its clear from playing at many courses, many golfers don't.

Niall

[Matt_Ward]

Niall:

Come to America and you can understand what I just mentioned -- ditto for Doug's comments.

Doug:

You are spot on with your last comments. Sean seems to believe that the average Joe is actually playing the tip tees -- that's far from the case -- most are playing from the mid-tee markers. The tee issue is a smokescreen -- people dawdle even from the front tees and cause a wide assortment of etiquette issues and when coupled with mgmt indifferences the clock ticks on and on and on.

Doug, most Amercian facilities take the stance that once you pay your $$ -- short of you actually dropping dead in the fairway -- the pace of play is simply dictated by the whims of the people in fronr of you. Mgmt doesn't do anything to speed up things -- and in fact actually adds to the total time with huge beverage carts that parade around to feed / drink the big water buffaloes playing the course.

What Sean ignores completely is the big time benefit that mgmt would derive from being so proactive. More players would actually seek out such a course because you CAN play at four hours per round.

There's also a side benefit - wives would see their husbands sooner -- so would their kids. Maybe some would say then we need actually longer rounds !

[Alex Miller]

If length was the primary issue then it wouldn't take me 4 hours to play an executive course, but I've had it happen many many times. No one is playing the wrong tees and no one is walking back farther than the others. It's just that some golfers are slower than others.

Some of the worst slow play I've experienced has been on sub-6000 yard golf courses. It's totally independent of distance if you ask me, and although there's no way you're gonna convince me otherwise at least I have evidence to back it up.

I still maintain that the only way to try to stop slow play is by educating new (and current) golfers so they know that there is a right way to play. To blame longer courses and inappropriate tee boxes for slow play is to ignore countless other factors that have affected the game of golf in the last 40 years.

[jeffwarne]

I'd like to see somebody put one of those swing-speed, ball-speed box things on the first tee of his public course.  There would be one tee on first hole for everybody.  Then, based on your ball-speed, you'd be designated a set of tees for holes #2-18.  First of all, people would think it's cool to get their ball speed on the first tee for free.   Second, it'd speed up play.  Third, it would be the box telling people what tees they should play from, not a person...the guy who thinks he belongs on the tips would be staring at the cold, hard fact of the box telling him otherwise.

So the smooth swinging 3 handicap senior would be forced to play the white tees while some toolbox chop who happened to lash at the ball with no clue where it was going or how to play the game would walk to the back tees....
That'll speed it up

[Scott Warren]

Matt Ward:

One difference though -- I object to clubs that set only one tee box -- any course should provide at least three tee boxes set in some sort of different lengths for players to choose. If just one tee box is set invariably someone will be playing a course they wish to avoid playing.

One tee box for male players, I meant.

My club in Britain and my club in Aus both have the same policy: On any given day there is one tee set for men (about 6400yds at Aus club and 6350yds in UK) and one for women. At Deal they also have Octogenarian tees, which are also used by the very young at times.

So by and large male golfers have one tee to choose from, and I have never seen a golfer whose game is so wonderful as to ruin his enjoyment of either course at those yardages.

[Sean_A]

Back to the Barney Adams' article that started this thread, he is proposing something to make golf more enjoyable and stem the loss of numbers of golfers.  He concludes that the equivalent course length for an average amateur is 1500 yards shorter than that for an average tour pro.  That seems to make sense to me.
When many of us play 6700 yards, that equates to an 8200 yard course for a pro--they probably wouldn't enjoy that much.  For fun--and the growth of the game--most of us probably need to be at about 6000 yards.  That would bring fun back into the game.

Jim

I couldn't agree more.  Very few golfers are good enough to step up to 6700 yards.  Of course, in this day and age, how good one is seems to be measured more and more by how far one can hit the ball rather than how many times a guy takes a swipe at the ball.  So, I know we are talking to the deaf.  I would even go one step further and reintroduce bogey score - leaving (a revamped assessment of) par for the best players.  Assuming there wil be no roll back, this has got to make more sense than the current trend. 

Ciao