Course length/Appropriate tees

[Alex Miller]

Matt

I didn't ignore any plea for education as way to speed up play.  Nor did I say more effective marshalling can't work.  In fact, I think both can help.  However, its these same two things which have been spouted my entire lifetime, yet things have gotten worse and we all must pay more for the priviledge.  I think its time to look for answers elsewhere and I see the length of courses as an issue which helps slow the game down.  Not only this, but some seem to want to leave the back tees open for everyone when we darn well know that few golfers should be back there.  To say this doesn't slow the game dramatically (walking back and forth to the tees for most courses, added shots because of length, added shots because of difficulty and added time just because these nimrods take a regular joe  game far too seriously) is to ignore basic facts.  Furthermore, to suggest 12 minutes for 1000 yards is all it costs is rubbish and anyone who sits down to think about it knows this to be the case.   

Ciao

Sean,

We've all been sitting down and thinking about this, and there has been some agreement that 1000 yards, or 800, or whatever doesn't add that much time to a round of golf. We've explained why instead of bashing down other people's ideas without providing evidence to the contrary. So, I'll try to explain once again, and I'll do it in the frame of a low handicap player because they are the ones most affected by the proposal of closing the back tees.

Let's assume that there is no one in front of the player so there is no wait, that way we can effectively measure his pace. We can assume the low handicap player will reach or be near every green in regulation. So even by moving the tees up the low handicapper does not take less shots on the golf course, save for a few more missed greens than before. This will add no more than 5 minutes throughout the round because it doesn't take any longer to hit a chip than a putt. The golfer may hit ~5 more shots depending on the difference in yardage, and if he is an efficient player there's no reason to assume more impact than 5 minutes.

As for the walking aspect, if we were to assume a worst case scenario of each back tee being farther away from the next tee than the middle tee, we would assume the golfer has to walk an extra 1,600 yards (for a course which is 800 yards longer). This is the absolute worst case scenario as many holes have a back tee which is closer to the previous green and no time is added to the walk at all! Since average walking speed is 3.5mph, the player who has to walk back to every tee only adds 15 minutes to the round. And therefore in total a course which is 800 yards longer and routed quite poorly only adds 20 minutes to the round for the player playing the appropriate tees.

You may look at this and say, "See, 20 minutes I told you guys length was adding time played!" You would only be partially right. Length is still not the issue which slows down pace of play, for golfers will still play slowly no matter what tees they're playing from. By moving up the low handicapper, you're not solving anything because they weren't the problem in the first place (generally speaking of course). The problem is still from the guys with long pre shot routines, poor preparation for upcoming shots, and lackadaisical gate. They slow people down no matter what tee they're playing, so while I agree that golfers need to play the appropriate tee for their game, the real issue is the golfers and not the tees from which they play. Closing the back tees would solve very little and anger a good percentage of golfers.

Adios

People, just read the whole thread before circling the discussion back around again!

[Jud_T]

well if a course is 6000 yards and it takes 240 minutes it's exactly 2.4 seconds per yard.  So if a course were 6700 yards with similar bunkers etc. it would be 6700*2.4 seconds=16080 seconds or 268 minutes-i.e. 4 hours 28 minutes.  To assume otherwise seems to me to be inserting assumptions...i.e. I agree with Sean...

[Jim_Kennedy]

RC,
What you are failing to take into account is that ability, no matter how it's defined, has more of an impact as the player moves back.

The guy who is constantly slicing it into woods from 4,500 will slice it into the woods many more times from 7,500.

[Richard Choi]

Again, you are just pulling that out of the air.

How do you know that time of play is proportional to yardage? That would assume that if the course was 5000 yards, it would take 3 hours and 20 minutes. If it was 4000 yards it would take 2 hours and 40 minutes.

I would challenge you to get a foursome to play from the women's tees and play under 3 hours. I highly doubt that is possible.

It is highly unlikely that the effect of the yardage is linear. Especially when you have to factor in distances between green to tee and amount of time involved in preparing and making strokes.

We really should refrain from pulling numbers out of our arses.

[Richard Choi]

RC,
What you are failing to take into account is that ability, no matter how it's defined, has more of an impact as the player moves back.

The guy who is constantly slicing it into woods from 4,500 will slice it into the woods many more times from 7,500.

But how much more? And how much effect does it have on his overall round time?

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Wake up all of you -- if you get #1 solved -- the rest flows very nicely.

The sad part is that #1 (mgmt) isn't really doing anything of note.

Simple as that.

[Alex Miller]

Let's assume that there is no one in front of the player so there is no wait, that way we can effectively measure his pace. We can assume the low handicap player will reach or be near every green in regulation. So even by moving the tees up the low handicapper does not take less shots on the golf course, save for a few more missed greens than before. This will add no more than 5 minutes throughout the round because it doesn't take any longer to hit a chip than a putt. The golfer may hit ~5 more shots depending on the difference in yardage, and if he is an efficient player there's no reason to assume more impact than 5 minutes.

As for the walking aspect, if we were to assume a worst case scenario of each back tee being farther away from the next tee than the middle tee, we would assume the golfer has to walk an extra 1,600 yards (for a course which is 800 yards longer). This is the absolute worst case scenario as many holes have a back tee which is closer to the previous green and no time is added to the walk at all! Since average walking speed is 3.5mph, the player who has to walk back to every tee only adds 15 minutes to the round. And therefore in total a course which is 800 yards longer and routed quite poorly only adds 20 minutes to the round for the player playing the appropriate tees.

What does this mean for the high handicapper who "slices it in the woods"? Well, if they play from the appropriate tee the right way then they should play in the same amount of time it takes a low handicapper to play the back tees. Assume 45 seconds added for each extra shot hit by the high handicapper means they take 15 minutes more to play than the low handicapper. But since the low handicapper is playing from a set of tees which adds 15 min to his round (worst case scenario), no one is hurting the overall pace of the group.

[Sean_A]

Pretty soon we are gonna have guys on this thread tell me its actually quicker to play a 7500 yard course compared to 6000 yarder because of some time wharp principle they saw on Star Trek.  Honestly, this entire argument is rank.  Adding a 1000 yards plus the extra walking to the tees (because most courses aren't built with the tips near the previous green - especially on old courses) could double the distance.  Once again, management practices and education can certainly help, but to date, I have not seen much of an impact on slow play from this end of things.  Has anybody else? I presume not or this thread wouldn't exist.  Sure we can say management hasn't tried and golfers are too lazy and stupid to learn.  Well, golfers are golfers and I don't expect their behaviour to change anytime soon despite all the guys on this site willing to teach them.  Management may change, but its a hard sell to treat customers harshly especially if what I suspect to be the case is true, that slow play is not a matter of isolated incidents - its epidemic.  Some of the reasons for this epidemic are quite natural.  The more people who play the more dunder heads and beginners will be on courses.  4ball play has become the norm as well as the medal format - this is the slowest combination imaginable.  Many years ago when folks talked of 2 hour rounds they were playing 4somes or singles at matchplay.  

If folks can't see that longer and tougher courses with tees not close to greens can't add a significant amount of time to a 4ball than I can only suggest they watch groups they know well on back and forward tees.  If you can then see no difference, well then, I am wrong.

Ciao  

[Richard Choi]

Sean, you really should read the article.

He gives examples where they shaved significant time in pace of play just by changing management methods. He also points it out as the biggest factor in pace of play. I don't think it is unwise to listen to the guy who has actually studied this issue rather than people who are pulling numbers out of the air.

Sure, playing a longer course is going to add more time. But no one here knows how much additional time is involved. it could be 5 min, it could be 15 minutes, it could be 1 hour. Your are assuming that it is significant without real facts.

Tees not being close to the green has nothing to do with the course yardage. You can have a 6000 yards with 100 yard distance between holes and 7500 yard course with almost no distance between holes. They are not necessarily related (it really has more to do with whether or not the golf course is located in a real-estate development).

[Jim_Kennedy]

RC,
I manage all the events at our course, the last being the senior men's championship -  18 holes stroke play w/handicaps.

Our course is nine holes, around 3,000 yards for the men, so the guys do something a bit different on the back nine, they all play from the reds. This makes the course about 370 to 400 yards shorter.

They take about 20 mins. less when playing from the reds. That's not a guess on my part.

These guys have all played the course for a long time and know it well, they rarely hit the ball OOB and as a group they aren't going to find themselves in many surprising predicaments.    

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

You simply dismiss mgmt's involvement -- you are stuck on the worn out argument about total length of course when frankly the bulk of people don't even turn their heads in that direction -- let alone actually play from there. Move on please.

Just because mgmt in many locales hasn't done much to date -- doesn't change the undeniable fact that mgmt is the one with the keys to the course and determines the manner / nature of how play proceeds -- or doesn't proceed.

You can change behavior in no less the manner you change speeds on the hwy -- have police units be seen and let people know the rules of the road / course consistently and daily. Cattle eventualy moves in the direction of the cowboys who direct them to a given location. Golfer / people are no different.

Slow play is epidemic -- because mgmt simply looked the other way -- the proverbial Pontius Pilate approach.

Mgmt can take back the asylum from the inmates -- those that do will benefit from it -- those that don't will have even less customers.

End of story ...

[Sean_A]

Richard

I have read the article more than once and I don't dispute any of it - as I have made quite clear throughout.

In my experience, back tees tend to involve extra walking either for the back tee player (usually) or the forward tee player.  This is one major advantage of one set of tees.  They can be set that one is always walking toward the house, but without a long distance walk before hitting the tee shot.  This is far harder to do when back tees are introduced.  It really can't be any other way and when we are talking about significant yardage differences that can mean significant walks.  

Personally, I have little faith in golf course management or in archies to design better walking courses.  So its all really just a waste of time to talk about it.  Its best just to vote with your feet and not show up at 5 Hour Public GC if you don't have that sort of time or patience.  The odd thing is I am not a quick player, but I hate extra walking because the slow part of my game is walking.  I just don't enjoy walking fast as a counter measure to poor design or management practices.

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,

Management is number one on Bill Yates' list for good reason.

I would remind you though that while McDonald's has a drive-thru, Ruth's Chris doesn't.

[Niall C]

Gents:

Wake up all of you -- if you get #1 solved -- the rest flows very nicely.

The sad part is that #1 (mgmt) isn't really doing anything of note.

Simple as that.

Matt

I would contend that we also have a slow play problem here in the UK and yet we don't have the degree of management you refer to because most of our courses are basic members courses which are more or less self policing. Without anyone out there with a cattle prod the only way of getting things moving is for players to take personal responsiblity and realising that it is them that is causing the problem. You might call that self-management, I don't know, but to my mind the golfing public need to be educated or re-educated so that they know how to behave. The question for me is how do we do that ? Some suggestions;

1 - start with the youngsters, before you teach them how to swing a club teach them the fundamentals of good etiquette. I note you got that when you were younger and so did I.

2 - I've now been a member at four different clubs, and only one of those enquired if I knew anything about repairing pitchmarks/replacing divots etc. If every club actually asked aspiring members some basic questions on etiquette and those elements in particular that impact on pace of play it would test their knowledge and raise general awareness. I appreciate a lot of clubs are crying out for new members and might be reluctant to hesitate taking someones cheque but think on this, what club are you most likely to join, the one where rounds generally take 3.5 hrs or the one where rounds take 4.5 hrs ? Turn it into a selling point.

3 - Newsletters - similar to 2 above. Clubs these days spend ever more time writing to their members so why not get them to include a newsletter not just criticising slow play but one that lists ways in which to speed up play eg. be ready to play when its your turn, leave your bag on the right side of the green for the next tee, don't mark your card on the green while some was it waiting to play etc. As an example of how these things work, a club I was at had aproblem with pitchmarks in that people repairing pitchmarks the wrong way were causing more problems than the pitchmarks themselves. The club sent a newsletter showing the corect way to do it and within weeks it made a huge difference to the greens.

4 - how about the R&A or its american counterpart taking out full page ads in the golfing press about things to do to avoid slow play ? In fact do you think they would need to pay for an ad ? I'll bet if they started a campaign the press would gladly run with it. Better than writing another article on how to hit a driver I would have thought.

Niall  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Halfway House Time: The USGA allows four minutes to be added to the Time Par of a hole that has a Halfway House stop between it and the next tee

I think I found our answer - As the golf population ages, we spend far more time whizzing than we used to.

Case closed.

[Matt_Ward]

Niall:

No doubt slow play can be just about anywhere. Unfortunately, here in the States, we have permitted multi-layers of mgmt and numbers of staffers to be included on the green fee ticket one pays -- but when called upon to actually doing something many simply shrink from the task.

Niall, I agree with you that "self-policing" can work faster at member clubs -- people who play regularly at the same club can easily ID the slowpokes and get on with the necessary follow-ups as need be.

Just try to realize that getting players educated is not akin to providing such players with a massive step process in retraining or re-orientating them. It does take a steady and consistent effort and it needs to be no less a priority than the desire to take the $$ or credit card when players register for play.

The American mindset is if one pays for something -- you are entitled to do with it as you wish. That is a major crock and lies at the underbelly in why the slow pokes continue to exist.

You are spot on -- turn speed play into a selling point and reward it accordingly. Provide prime tee slots for those who understand the rules of the road and deny them to others. The key thing that most people don't do -- is orientate their own staffs who are out on the course and get them active to keep things going. Too many rangers just want to patrol the neighboring swimming pool or club pool and oggle the 22-year-old busty college gals sunning themselves.

When you speak about newsletters -- include the names of people and call them "cattle" -- so people will know who the grazers are on the golf course.

One other thing -- GD did take a proactive stand as the game's leading mag a number of years ago but nothing as a follow-up either with them or others has been done. A pity.

[Bill_Yates]

Yates here...

I've been reading the discussion (and thank you for citing of my interview), and thanks as well for your positive comments and for beginning to apply that thinking to answering the questions raised by this thread.

Without blowing too much smoke, in my opinion Matt Ward gets it!  Many others seem to be as well, as I've seen an openess to change opinions by many in the last pages of this thread. 

If the issue of slow play is to be truly addressed, many others at all levels of the game have to look at the basic research that has been done and begin to change their opinions regarding this subject just as many of you have.  Once attitudes are changed, behavior can be changed.

That's the end of my sermon, I'm not trying to sound pompous, I just get excited when those who love the game begin to see through the fog.  As you will find out, many of the proper responses to improve the pace of play are counterintuitive.

I'll be on and off line this evening then back tomorrow and will look fordard to participating in any way I can.  And by the way, the pace of play can be improved I've seen it happen time and time again at courses around the world.
 



 

[Richard Choi]

Bill, good to have you on this discussion.

Jeff brings up a good point. In many rounds, I think the pace couldn't get possibly worse (on the way to 5 hour + round), and then I get to the 10th tee (next to the clubhouse) and there are 2 or 3 groups waiting to tee off because people before spend leisurely time getting snacks, drinks, and what not.

What can be done to get people to drive through faster at the turn?

[Doug Siebert]

Rather than studies about the causes, I'm curious if anyone has ever done a poll of golfers to see how many think slow play is a problem?   see a bunch of guys in this thread talking past each other, each with different ideas as to the cause, and one backing a study from someone who has actually looked into it.  Based on the law of averages, I'm sure not everyone here plays all that quickly.  Its rather like asking people if they are a good driver (of a car, not a golf ball)  90% will say they are above average.

Is there even a way for a given person to measure how quickly they play?  If one guy walks a course in a real estate development where he is spending a half hour just getting from tee to green over 18 holes, and another guy is driving a juiced up cart on a old style short course without cartpaths where you can spit from the fringe of one green to the next teebox, the time it takes them to play 18 alone is in no way comparable.  If you start talking about time to play 18 as part of a foursome, it really gets lost in the noise.  Kind of like the difference in accident rates between someone who drives a cab in Boston for a living versus a retired guy who drives his car only to the Walmart and the golf course in central Nevada.

I think I'm a relatively fast player - not the fastest, but above average.  I also think I'm a pretty good driver - not the best, but above average.  Odds are, you all probably agree with this for yourselves.  Odds are, some of us are wrong.

The one thing we all do agree upon is that slow play is a problem.  If a poll was taken and it turned out that 90% of golfers believed slow play was a problem, I think golf course management would fee a lot more comfortable taking measures to address the issue.

[Richard Choi]

Doug, if you have ever been to a GCA event, you would know that we are not the quickest group of players...

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I haven't read through all the previous posts, so forgive me if this has been metioned already.

There was an article in Swedish Golf magazine by Eric Franzén (who was/is a member of this DG) about how several Swedish clubs have ditched the coloured tees and now designate the tees with a two digit number. Say, for example a course has tees at 6875 yds, 6534 yds, 6210 yds and 5901 yds. In the past, these would probably have been equated with back tees (black/gold/blue), medal tees (white), forward tees (green) and ladies tees (red). Because ladies tees are usually red, you'll not likely to see a gent play off the red tees, for obvious reasons.

In the above example the 6875 yds tees are now renamed the 68 tees, 6534 become the 65 tees, 6210 become the 62 tees and what used to be the ladies tees become the 59 tees. A player can look at the score card and choose the 59 tees, without thinking that he'll be laughed off the course for playing off the ladies tees. He chooses the 59 tees because he knows that he'll play the course at approximately 5900 yds.

Has this been tried anywhere else?

[Bill_Yates]

Richard,
To answer your question, the source for improvements for people taking too much time "at the turn" can be found by focusing on three of the "Five Factors that Impact the Pace of Play" that I have identified and you outlined in reply #141 above.

The three factors to look at in this case are Course Design, Management Practices and Policies, and Player Behavior.

Course Design - In this situation (ie. the course already exists) the decision to have returning nines provided the opportunity for this problem to exist.  This was a GCA/ownership decision.  Now, I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm saying that the decision to have returning nines had an impact on how the course should best be managed.

Management Practices and Policies - The F&B manager needs to be brought into the mix to partiicipate.  He/she needs to understand the impact that the menu, service delivery interaction, location, etc. of the halfway house has on the flow of play from the ninth green to the tenth tee.  This becomes a process and revenue generation improvement opportunity and a training opportunity for his/her team.

Player Behavior - The player's responsibility (with management's assistance) will be altered based on the management changes that were made and by having the players understand and experience how moving on to the next tee will ultimately be of benefit to them.

The trick is to break down problems like this incrementally, then the mystery and the problem will begin to disappear.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

You raise a few interesting questions.

Some courses hurt themselves when they mandate CART ONLY rules.

Once you prohibit access to the fairway inevitably total play time will increase -- in some cass dramatically.

I am aware cart path only rules are instituted because of wet conditions -- the mgmt mistake is then thinking that cart path only will really help matters. It far often doesn't.

No doubt the configuration of the course matters plenty -- but as I said earlier mgmt can easily scope out the critical choke points and make sure people have rangers and the like to assist them.

One other suggestion that mgmt can do -- any par-3 over 200 yards should be an automatic "wave up" the preceding group. Few people can hit such a green and by the time the preceding group gets to their second shots the group on the green will have finished and gone on to the next hole.

In regards to what customers want concerning the topic of slow play -- it's fairly e-z to figure out. Most people don't want to crawl to the tune of 5 plus hours to play.

If mgmt provides a detailed education program -- having a link to their website helps -- ditto in providing a flyer when registering for fees for the season.

Signage on the course goes a long way -- ditto having the course marked correctly.

The bottom line is that slow play is a mindset hooked to lazy attitudes and mgt is at the top of that pyramid.

Show me a course where it's guaranteed that I play in four hours or less -- at anytime -- and I'll be there -- even if it's Doak 3 or less.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We have moved a long way off topic and are now discussing slow play issues. I think that there are a varety of contributors, in the main some players are slow and have a pre shot routine that can add lots of minutes, on the greens some seem to take forever whilst others seem to have the line almost immediately the amount of time taken on the greens should not be understimated. Contoured greens will add lots of time, they make you take three putts afterall,if your doing all the marking and lining up in turns, it can take forever. Walking from greens to the next tee can clock some time if there are long walks, I dont agree with the premise that back tees are always back from the general walk, even on older colders much of the walk is still involved from the forward blocks, if you think of ladies tees they are much forward, are they quicker, are they hell.
Carts and cart paths if you have to stay on them are a definite time adder and if your carrying like in the UK you can mitigate to a lot more direct routing.
Bad etiquete, searching in long rough for balls are other biggies, a half way house stop.
Managing it is important, but its not easy to tell someone off in a nice way, its needs the education to start proir to play really.

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

Yes, start with education.

When that doesn't work -- then enforcement - across the board.

With no potential stick in hand the role of the carrot becomes useless.