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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Peter Principle
« on: January 13, 2011, 07:19:09 AM »
One of Mucci's posts got me thinking about my handicap.  I'm a 12 and have been roughly in that handicap range for 4-5 years.  Over 40+ years playing I was once briefly a 6 - that's my nadir.

A question I enjoy asking my golf teachers over the years is this.  "If I gave you ten million dollars, demanded you leave your wife and family to spend a year full time with me (8 hours a day, 7 days a week); made at your desposal Pelz, sport's psychologists and anybody else you want; can you make me a scratch golfer?"

Somewhat surprisingly to a man they say yes.  The question is not really applied to me but a general one.  For a reasonably coordinated and experienced golfer can you be intensely trained to get to scratch or do you reach a limit (physically and/or mentally) you can't go beyond - Your Peter Principle Handicap.

What do you think?

Jonathan


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 07:39:51 AM »
Jonathon

For myself, I think it wouldn't be terribly onerous to get down to 3-4.  I don't think I ever will get back down toward scratch with all the help in the world because I don't have that sort of dedication.  It wouldn't be in the least bit fun like it was when I was a kid not really knowing/caring that my time on the course had direct results on the card.  I was just there for the fun of it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 08:03:48 AM »
I really think it depends on where your game currently stands.  It would be much more difficult to bring a 25 handicap down to a scratch where somone who has a single digit handicap would have a MUCH better chance at achieving the goal.

At the end of the season, I think I was about a 5, and I dont think it would be a problem to get to that level if I could dedicate a year to it.  A man can dream of that!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 08:56:48 AM »
Jonathan,

There is a guy in Ireland who is doing something like this for one year. He will have access to fitness trainers, golf pros, sports psychologist, etc. I believe he's doing this with the GUI (Golfing Union of Ireland). If I can find the link I'll post it.


Mike Sweeney

Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 08:59:09 AM »

A question I enjoy asking my golf teachers over the years is this.  "If I gave you ten million dollars, demanded you leave your wife and family to spend a year full time with me (8 hours a day, 7 days a week); made at your desposal Pelz, sport's psychologists and anybody else you want; can you make me a scratch golfer?"

What do you think?

Jonathan


They can't do it, but may be you can.

My wife had open heart surgery as a two year old at The Mayo Clinic and the doctors back then said she would never play sports. He parents re-enforced that view for years. This year she ran the NYC Marathon.

I think I could get down to a real 4-6 handicap (fake 8-10) right now, but anything below that is really really hard work to compensate for a short game that is not natural for me.

After watching Pipe Dream last night on The Golf Channel, I am serious in saying that I need to keep an eye on the golf obsessions:

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/pipe-dream/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 09:08:45 AM »
It depends which tees you play from.  Because I am a straight short ball hitter I am from 6000 but will never be from 7000 yds.

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 09:25:33 AM »
Distance off the tee is a big issue. If you are a mid or high handicap but can carry the ball a reasonable distance there is hope.
If you get the chance read Tom Coyne's "Paper Tiger".  Tom grew up playing Rolling Green and was a decent junior but gave up the game in college and when he eventually came back he was a 14.  Took a year, went to Naples and worked with Jim Suttie, a golf fitness expert and then took some time with a sports psychologist.  I believe that he got to +1.5 and actually went to Q School for a number of the lower tier international tours.  Tom is a good writer and an interesting fellow. Book is a very good read.

Jim Eder

Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2011, 09:46:05 AM »
I think even with everything there are only a small percent (5-10%) of all golfers) able to achieve scratch. Physically I think many more could get there but it comes down to psychology and the short game. I agree distance is a hurdle but look at Corey Pavin and with the right swing distance does increase especailly with technology but I agree it is a hurdle. One has to be comfortable with scoring well which sounds easier than it is. One has to make a lot of putts and not miss inside 5 feet. The misses have to be good misses, no impossible up and downs, etc. Mistakes have to be minimized. There is something about a scratch player that seems to be special (at least in my experieince) and it seems to be mental. Can everyone be mentally strong enough to get there? Personally I don't believe so. But the main thing is to enjoy the game, enjoy the courses, the outdoors, the other players, the experience..................

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2011, 10:04:41 AM »
One key to becoming a scratch golfer is to avoid medal play tournaments where you may have to post a score.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2011, 10:58:07 AM »
JC,

After we played together last, at Bandon Trails if you recall, I told you that your swing is much better than what your handicap suggested.  I am not sure how you took it- it was meant as encouragement- but I have absolutely no doubt that you can be a solid mid-single digit player.

Actually, the key to becoming better is 180* from JohnK's quip.  The more tournament play you put under your belt, the better you will become, assuming of course that your sense of pride will require that you prepare for the tournaments.

The other thing that might hold you back is the number of courses you play as rater, some for the first time, others occasionally.  Not only does it likely affect your handicap, but it trains a focus that is different than that which leads to minimizing your score.  When your mind is trained on picking out all the features and subtleties of a golf course, it is likely not focused on getting the ball into the hole in the fewest strokes.

Having said all this, I think there is a Peter Principle in all things including golf.  I have a friend at Reynolds Plantation who did very well in manufacturing and sold his company at a relatively young age to a bigger outfit that just had to have it.  He is an excellent athlete, lettered in varsity baksetball and baseball in high school; a terror in neighborhood softball and basketball games.  He loves golf, works very hard at it, but can not lower his handicap much below 10.  But even this guy has not reached his PP.  I know this because when I've played with him and he asks me for help, I can get him to hit the ball better.  Unfortunately, as soon as he goes on his own, he reverts to his old habits.  And as you know, in golf, the difference between an acceptable shot and a horrendous one is often extremely small.

I do think we tend to reach a comfort level with a range of scores and our game might acclimate to it.  One of my biggest fears about moving up to the short tees is that pretty soon my scoring would adapt and I'd be shooting the same scores from the shorties as I did from further back.  A lot is in the mind and these days mine is not doing to well, probably around an 18.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 11:14:41 AM »
What is the minimum driving distance to reach scratch, asuming you are playing between 6400 and 6600 yard courses? No matter how well you strike it I doubt you could get to 0 and stay there if you're only hitting it 220 off the tee.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jim Eder

Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 11:27:07 AM »
Pete,

I think it depends on the composition of the course. If it is narrow (which may cause the course rating to be higher) or open. (I assume the 220 hitter is very accurate. Where the length "hides" - in the 5s it would be easier, in the 4s more difficult, in the 3s maybe in between. So I think it is possible for the 220 hitter but agree it would be more difficult without a stellar 100yds and in game. My best guess would be someone has to hit it at least 240-250 but I could see the exceptional 220-230 player get there especially with the hybrids nowadays. I just keep thinking about Pavin and the potential for a great short hitter.

I may try an experiment one of these days. Tee off with my 3 iron (which goes about 220) and see what I shoot. My problem is my short game is not strong enough so my guess is I would go from a 2 to a 6 but it is only a guess. 

It is a very interesting question.

Jim Eder

Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 11:39:45 AM »
I should add another factor which would be forced carries and whether the course allows run-ups or if approaches need to be carried onto the greens (again made easier with hybrids). Then the size of the greens. Just a lot of course factors to consider in my opinion.

I think about that great shot Pavin hit into 18 at Shinnecock. Still amazing to me. It can be done. (And it is fun to try to get better as long as we don't take it more serious than the fact that it remains a game and a great one at that).

I just got to the WSJ and saw the Dave Eichelberger story. He is 67 and he shot his age to qualify for Sony. I so admire the folks in their 60s and 70s (and those above) who shoot their age!!!

Jim Eder

Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 02:05:22 PM »
Is it easier to be a scratch playing most of your golf at a course with a high rating (74-76) or with a low rating (68-70)? I would say a higher rated course. But I also am not a great putter so that maybe the reason for my thinking.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2011, 02:14:38 PM »
What is the minimum driving distance to reach scratch, asuming you are playing between 6400 and 6600 yard courses? No matter how well you strike it I doubt you could get to 0 and stay there if you're only hitting it 220 off the tee.

I don't understand why distance off the tee is a pre-requisite of becoming a scratch golfer. When many of our courses were laid out 100 years ago 220 yards would have been considered a monster drive - yet there were probably just as many scratch players around as a proportion of golfers generally as there are now.

Surely a killer long/medium iron to the green is a more important weapon in the golfer's arsenal than a mega drive. The ability to get down in a pitch and a putt more often than not is more important still...



My question is; is it realistic for a guy taking up golf at the age of fifty to get down to single figures within a couple of years? I do hope so.

The thing I love most about golf is that it is the only thing in life I'm actually getting better at!

Jim Eder

Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 02:22:21 PM »
Your last line is priceless!!!

FWIW, I think it is totally realistic for someone just taking up the game at the age of fifty to get into single digits. I believe anyone can achieve any realistic goal in life if they try. The power of positive thought (especially in golf) is extraordinary. With stretching, exercise etc not only will it help your game it will help your life. And if you find the desired happiness on the golf course in your quest to achieve your goal then it will only add to the quality of life and your longevity.

Good luck getting into single digits and enjoy the journey!!!

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 02:34:35 PM »
What is the minimum driving distance to reach scratch, asuming you are playing between 6400 and 6600 yard courses? No matter how well you strike it I doubt you could get to 0 and stay there if you're only hitting it 220 off the tee.

I don't understand why distance off the tee is a pre-requisite of becoming a scratch golfer.

Duncan,

Go to your home course and don't hit any drives; play each hole with a 5 iron and a 9 iron, play those balls out. I'll bet you shot a much lower score with the 9 iron ball. A golfers potential IS goverened by his distance. Even with the best short game in history (I believe Tom Kite once had a 70% up and down rate) you are going to make bogies when you miss greens. How many birdies do you make with a 3 iron in hand? You have to either reach par 5 's in 2 or have several short irons in to make birdies. Trust me, I hit it 220 and unless I hit the gym, getting to scratch is unattainable.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 03:07:02 PM »
It depends which tees you play from.  Because I am a straight short ball hitter I am from 6000 but will never be from 7000 yds.

Straight, short hitter!  WHAT!!!!

To the entire board, check this out...

We are playing Sand Hills.  I noticed John is striping the ball right down the middle every single time WAY past my drives.  Now, I am not long.  230-250 drives on average.  Sometimes 200 if I miss the center of the club, maybe 270 is all the stars align. 

So, I ask John...how far do you normally hit it?  280ish?  He immediately responds without hesitation..."240.  Most people lie and overestimated how far they hit the ball!" 

I am thinking Hmmmm.  He is at least 30 yards past me every time and I think I'm getting my drives out there 240.  Of course as he says this we are on a short par 4 and the tee to green is maybe 270ish.  He promptly drives the green!!!  And, of course, for the rest of the trip I mention to him that he has the longest 240 yard drives I've ever seen.   ;)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 03:29:33 PM »
What is the minimum driving distance to reach scratch, asuming you are playing between 6400 and 6600 yard courses? No matter how well you strike it I doubt you could get to 0 and stay there if you're only hitting it 220 off the tee.

Aren't there a lot of women and seniors that would seem to indicate otherwise?

One of the most eye opening rounds I've ever played was with an older guy from Ireland. He was in his 60s, I was 30 (I think, maybe 31). I hit 3 and 4 irons off the tee, every one past his drivers and 3 woods. He beat me 18 strokes. 93-75.

To me, one's ultimate level will be governed by one's touch and feel. You can improve that to a huge degree, but I think it will ultimately be the limiting factor. Especially with today's equipment - it's easier to buy length than feel.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011, 03:30:52 PM »
One of Mucci's posts got me thinking about my handicap.  I'm a 12 and have been roughly in that handicap range for 4-5 years.  Over 40+ years playing I was once briefly a 6 - that's my nadir.

A question I enjoy asking my golf teachers over the years is this.  "If I gave you ten million dollars, demanded you leave your wife and family to spend a year full time with me (8 hours a day, 7 days a week); made at your desposal Pelz, sport's psychologists and anybody else you want; can you make me a scratch golfer?"

Somewhat surprisingly to a man they say yes.  The question is not really applied to me but a general one.  For a reasonably coordinated and experienced golfer can you be intensely trained to get to scratch or do you reach a limit (physically and/or mentally) you can't go beyond - Your Peter Principle Handicap.

What do you think?

Jonathan



Jonathan

The research tends to show it takes 10,000 hours and 10 years of deliberate practice to achieve mastery in a given subject. There are discussions about what constitutes deliberate practice and a scratch golfer wouldn't be quite classed as a master.

Can you go from 12 to scratch? Yes, in a year? Possibly, I don't think someone who has been at a level for 4-5 years can make the jump in a year irrespective of the amount of work done in that year. I think 2-3 years would be much more realistic.

 
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 03:37:34 PM »
Mac,

The turf and elevation at Sand Hills is good for 15% added distance.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 03:41:21 PM »
Is it easier to be a scratch playing most of your golf at a course with a high rating (74-76) or with a low rating (68-70)? I would say a higher rated course. But I also am not a great putter so that maybe the reason for my thinking.

Generally speaking, I would tend to agree with that statement.  It's much easier to shoot 75 or 76 on a tougher course day in and day out than it would be to average 68 or 70 on an easier course.  But alot does have to do with the short game as you say.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 04:03:26 PM »

Duncan,

Go to your home course and don't hit any drives; play each hole with a 5 iron and a 9 iron, play those balls out. I'll bet you shot a much lower score with the 9 iron ball. A golfers potential IS goverened by his distance. Even with the best short game in history (I believe Tom Kite once had a 70% up and down rate) you are going to make bogies when you miss greens. How many birdies do you make with a 3 iron in hand? You have to either reach par 5 's in 2 or have several short irons in to make birdies. Trust me, I hit it 220 and unless I hit the gym, getting to scratch is unattainable.

I still don't buy it.

A 220 yd drive is quite enough to enable you to hit the green with your second shot on all but the very toughest par 4's. It is the quality of your second shot which determines whether you make it or not!

On par 5's, surely getting within 100 yards of the green in two is sufficient if your short game is up to scratch. If your short game is lacking, no number of 270 yd drives is going to compensate.

I would humbly suggest that working on your short game and putting would get you to scratch quicker than hitting the gym.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 04:48:06 PM »
I suspect it's possible. Just putting in the time is going to be as big a factor as the instruction.

I was never a better player than for the summer I worked at a course, because I played virtually every day. Or at the very least would hit balls. I got good at all kinds of shots that I always struggled with before and have struggled with since.

Golf is a skill based on repeating a consistent motion. The more consistently you work on it, the better you will get.

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peter Principle
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 05:13:45 PM »
In Jonathon's first post on this thread, he described ideal circumstances, of unlimited resources and a year of time.

As Bob Rotella says: scratch golf is possible only with Competance and Confidence.

That covers everything, for most people, advances in training are as remarkable as the advances in our equipment.

Someone on here should conduct the experiment!

@theflatsticker

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