[Brian Marion]

Reading through some of the posts over the past few weeks, I am amazed at the number of exclusive, expensive and hard to get on courses that get name dropped on this board. Then turn around and see everyone is clamoring for growing the game and shouting for more affordable golf, less maintenance and wondering why courses and clubs are going under.

Is good golf "mostly" the realm of the rich and well connected? On this board, it would seem so as the number of Pine Valley, LACC, Merion, Oakmont, ANGC, NGLA, etc, etc mentions would lead most anyone to believe so.

[Ken Moum]

Is good golf "mostly" the realm of the rich and well connected?

I figure that nobody really cares about my rounds at Poston Butte, Dobson Ranch, Mesa CC, Alta Mesa GC, Bear Creek GC, et. al, in Arizona over the holidays.

This is a discussion forum about golf course architecture, so it's no surprise that the discussions revolve around the top courses.  Even if most of the participants rarely get to play them.  I wouldn't expect a DB about beefsteak to have many discussions about the local Texas Roadhouse, or Golden Corral.

K

[Brian Marion]

Ken , I agree 100%, the best courses are known as such for a reason and hence why one would want to play them.

But there has to be some truly hidden gems out there. Courses that, while maybe not able to compete with say, Augusta hole for hole, can at least be worth playing.

Otherwise, does the goal in future new course construction just become an adventure in trying to top the last course. That gets awfully expensive, with green fees to match, something I think we can all look around and see has already happened.

Or has it always just been that way?

[Ryan Admussen]

I played Aiken and Rustic Canyon last year based on recommendations from GCA, two of the best deals in golf, Lawsonia and Wildhhorse are two other courses discussed here often that I plan on playing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ken,

To be honest, I get the impression most of these guys want free golf.

Free is affordable, no?

[Greg Chambers]

Ken,

To be honest, I get the impression most of these guys want free golf.

Free is affordable, no?

Only twelve days in, and already we have our first nomination for post of the year!

[Sam Morrow]

Ken,

To be honest, I get the impression most of these guys want free golf.

Free is affordable, no?

Jeff,

 My Aunt and Uncle own a couple of condos at La Costa, maybe I can "consult."

[Doug Siebert]

Brian, there are a lot of hidden gems out there.  Obviously no course can be truly 'hidden' if its on the level of PV, ANGC, NGLA etc. but I'm sure everyone here has played some courses that most everyone else here would consider worth their time to play.

But, and here's the rub, being worth their time to play and being worth their time and expense to travel across the country to play are two very different things.  Even if its free, its not free if you have to buy a plane ticket, get a hotel room and rent a car.

I can tell you about a great hidden gem called Saddleback Ridge that about 10 miles north from me.  It is not on the level of those top named courses but is underrated, quirky, has a lot of architectural interest, plays quite firm and fast in the right conditions, and only gets better when the wind blows hard.  If you enjoy the courses discussed in GCA you'd find it is well worth your time to play, and well worth your money since greens fees are only $30 on a weekend.  Well, $30, plus a flight to the nearest airport in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, a hotel and rental car.  And no guarantees about the weather unless you can leave on a moment's notice (a tip: wait a few months before coming out, there's a couple inches of snow on the ground right now and the low tonight will be around 0 )

I could talk all I want about this course - and I actually have mentioned it probably over a dozen times either as an example of something I'm talking about in an architectural thread, or pointing out some of its quirk (6 par 3s and 6 par 5s, including 6 holes in a row that are not par 4s, and only two bunkers on the whole course) when discussions of quirky designs come up.  But its typically rather one sided, since while its an interesting hidden gem, its a bit too hidden for other GCA members to come out and play.  Maybe if one of the guys who lives in Chicago decides to take a slow drive to Sand Hills along I-80 sometime, but even then I'd have to convince them that this course is worth being a stop instead of The Harvester - I think Saddleback does in some ways exceed The Harvester, but it also has its shortcomings, and I can't claim that overall it is a better course.  So it'll forever remain a hidden gem to all but those who live in the area...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Affordable golf seldom has any link with the wants on this board. New courses will need to be on smaller parcels of land as land costs, maintenance, fuels and water prices go north. Some of the buisness plans that banks had lent to are crazy, I dont think it will happen again.

[Carl Rogers]

Isn't value (time, travel, experience, slow play) golf the real issue?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Enjoyable golf on fairly priced good courses

Melvyn

[Mark McKeever]

Enjoyable golf on fairly priced good courses

Melvyn

Well put Melvyn.  Agreed.

Mark

[Mac Plumart]

Brian...

I agree with your sentiment 100%.  MOST of the time we talk about the same courses on this website.  But if you look there are some really good threads about the hidden gems and/or affordable good golf.  Like Ryan A. said, he found Aiken and Rustic Canyon through this site.  Longshadow is another one we talk about on here.  Right now there is a John Fought thread going which talks about some of his courses which are worthy of playing.

So, yes...we talk about the top tier courses a lot but there are great discussions on the "other" courses as well.

Sidenote...on this affordable golf topic.  Is my neck of the woods the exception rather than the rule?  I live in the northern suburbs of Atlanta and within 30 minutes of my house I've got two decent to solid golf courses that cost less than $50 to play.  And if you drive another 15 to 30 minutes that number grows substantially.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I like to see people make sacrifices to play the game.  If it be standing in line for a tee time or sending your child to an in state school, a golfer who gives something up to play reaps more rewards than one who is just passing time.

[Matt_Ward]

Brian:

The simple explanations why you hear about the top tier courses is a few reasons.

1). They do merit the attention they get. But it should not be the only element of the conversation on quality course design.

2). Those who have played them want to extol their virtues.

3). Too often those who do talk about them have little else to crow about because they have not really explored other golf options.

The USA has plenty of solid well-designed layouts that are quite reasonable. What is reasonable? I'd say that anything for no more than double digit fees is quite manageable for many. There are also a select number of courses that are $50 and less.

Brian, I completely agree that more attention should be paid to the places you are speaking about. I have tried on numerous occasions to bring such courses to light -- others on this site have done likewise.

Check out past threads on Colorado golf, Michigan golf, New Mexico golf and a number of others. Plenty of info on really solid layouts that most people would thoroughly enjoy. Places like Wild Horse and Four Mile Ranch have much to sample and enjoy. If you need more info just communicate with me offline.

[Terry Lavin]

Sure, this board wants that.  Some on this board may never venture on most of those "affordable" tracks, because they have other options, but I don't think that the whiffs of elitism to which you infer suggest that there's an indifference to the type of golf courses that 95% of people play.  I'd agree with Melvyn's pithy description and say that all of us do (or should) wish for enjoyable golf on fairly priced good courses.  That's not impossible to find, but it surely can be a challenge.  I can say that we are lucky here in Chicago that there is a goodly number of courses that fit that description, even if they aren't in any way architecturally significant. 

[Joe Bausch]

Sometimes you gotta travel a bit.  Just last week Kyle H and I drove about 1h outside of Philly to play a Hurdzan/Fry course for 12 bucks:

[Phil McDade]

Isn't value (time, travel, experience, slow play) golf the real issue?

Carl:

I'm not so sure. Some people's view of value (heck, it might be mine) would be a round at Cypress Point -- notwithstanding its cost, or the cost to get there for many -- because it's, you know, Cypress Point!!

I'm pretty certain, although it's just a guess, that some residents of Gothenburg, Neb., think the local club is over-priced and over-run by yahoos from all corners, and would rather play the 9-hole sand-green course down the road, even though the local club is held up time and again by nearly everyone who's played it as the epitome of solid architecture, great conditions, and fair pricing -- maybe the very defnition of high value in the game today.

So much of this discussion depends on your perspective. I'd only suggest that solid, affordable golf -- with quality architecture -- is probably available for nearly everyone (a few major urban areas excepted) if they look hard enough.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sure, this board wants that.  Some on this board may never venture on most of those "affordable" tracks, because they have other options, but I don't think that the whiffs of elitism to which you infer suggest that there's an indifference to the type of golf courses that 95% of people play.  I'd agree with Melvyn's pithy description and say that all of us do (or should) wish for enjoyable golf on fairly priced good courses.  That's not impossible to find, but it surely can be a challenge.  I can say that we are lucky here in Chicago that there is a goodly number of courses that fit that description, even if they aren't in any way architecturally significant. 

Terry,

Then why do some guys enjoy playing on private courses where the cost per round ends up being more than going to Pebble Beach.  Oh yea, because they can afford it.

[Terry Lavin]

Cost per round?  Sheesh, you oughta know better than to use those words in that combination.  If my ex-wife ever did that math, she would have spun me sooner!

[Jeff_Brauer]

It strikes me how spot on Ran was to call this golf club atlas, which implies more of a travel site than an architecture discussion site.  While his vision was to discuss gca, apparently he knew intuitively that this would also be an outlet to discuss and fantasize about far away courses most of us will not ever be able to play.

So, its not surprising that we discuss the top courses.  Think about how many truly architectural topics really come up here?  And most folks cannot describe a design theory without a visual example.  If we were truly a gca board, when Joe posted that pix of the HF course near Philly, someone would have commented on how well the grass bank guarded the pin that day, and the possible strategy of hitting the bank behind the pin to get close.

I am certain that is why Joe took that picture.

[Tim Bert]

Ken,

To be honest, I get the impression most of these guys want free golf.

Free is affordable, no?

Free is only definitely affordable if it is local.  Otherwise, it depends. 

[jeffwarne]

Reading through some of the posts over the past few weeks, I am amazed at the number of exclusive, expensive and hard to get on courses that get name dropped on this board. Then turn around and see everyone is clamoring for growing the game and shouting for more affordable golf, less maintenance and wondering why courses and clubs are going under.

Is good golf "mostly" the realm of the rich and well connected? On this board, it would seem so as the number of Pine Valley, LACC, Merion, Oakmont, ANGC, NGLA, etc, etc mentions would lead most anyone to believe so.

Brian,
While there is a grain of truth in your post, I'd say this board has been an invaluable source of information for me personally as far as digging up hidden gems.
The beauty is that many of these are ignored by the masses and are quite affordable and accessible.
Many of the private clubs mentioned on this board have been quite surprised and welcoming when I contacted them about access.
Granted I have PGA status which helps(and take the time to write a proper letter in advance),but typically the more "hidden the gem", the more welcoming the club, and thus a much better experience.
On the public side,I played Lawsonia off of a recomendation here and see many of my favorite places I discovered on my own  frequenty mentioned (Aiken Golf Club, Shennecosset, Pacific Grove) The suggestions about golf in Central Floride have been invaluable in avoiding most of the nonsense down there and has resulted in some really good affordable golf.
To say othing of the incredible posts about overseas gems from such superstars as Ran and Sean Arble and regional info from the likes of posters such as Donal OCeallaigh and Melvyn Morrow
So yes there's a lot of NGLA and Pine Valley man love here, but plenty of gem love and info as well.

[Sean_A]

I can't speak for anybody else, but so long as a course is interesting and good (doesn't have to be great or even close), I am far happier paying less for golf.  Paying a $200 green fee (either as a one off or part of club dues average cost per game) doesn't impress me in the least.  I tend to have a range of about $70-100 as a reasonable price to pay for a great course.  Much more than that is really about belt notching - though there is absolutely nothing wrong with belt notching and indeed its fun to do once in a while.  So affordable to me is more under $60 for good golf which keeps me interested.  Anything of this quality I can get for under $45 is more than a bargain - its a steal.  Though usually at this price the golf is pretty good, but not of the sort which would bring me back week after week.  Why do you think I am a golf vagabond?  Its bloody hard to find courses that are affordableish) and worth playing a lot, though I wonder why that is the case.  Generally speaking though, I think everybody likes to feel as though they got a good deal and appreciates the lesser wonders of the golf world.

Ciao  

[PThomas]

I sure want affordable golf!

people should start threads with as much detail as possible including pictures if they are fond of such courses

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