Is Affordable Golf What This Board Really Wants?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean I think we all have a different intrpretation of affordable.... affordable to who... I am guessing when you go golfing you look at £50 as fair green fee for the quality you want, if your paying more you get dissapointed with the 'flaws'.
If we are look at affordable to the masses then £15 is a mindset plenty golf for in the UK... we have all these 2-4-1 deals and offers and twilight deals, plus most towns have a few £15 courses....these are the busy courses, these are the courses that are less dented by the economic woes, these courses have few staff and are run lean and mean and they exist on volume. Better courses dont tend to exist so much on volume and they tend to be operated more to break even, they tend to have more staff especially in the clubhouse.
Attracting more newbies to the game means we need £15 courses, the £40 market is small and the £40 market is primarily mopped up by the resort courses that have lakes guarding greens striped up fairways buggies etc.
One thing in the UK that we have which I assume you have is a County Card, wherby you can play 95% of course in England & Wales for member guest rate.

[Jim_Kennedy]

It seems to me that what's affordable to the established player increases with the economic condition he/she finds himself in. Not as many people were bothered as green fees rose in the '70s and '80s, and even though the CCFADs blossomed in the '90s there still wasn't the same level of focus of what's affordable because the game, even with a few blips, was showing ever increasing growth.

But from the early '00s on costs in other areas, like health care, energy, food, housing, etc., seem to have outpaced the average man's capacity to keep up. Even if a 'better' standard of living is had by all the cost to maintain it draws ever more resources away from the portion that was once allocated to enjoying it, like golf.

More jobs/better wages = more affordable golf courses.  

[Chris Johnston]

Before you can find the answer, you must refine/better define the question.

An example:  Affordable public or private?  Privately owned or (subsidized) muni?

Is an affordable membership attractive?  Is it affordable to you or is affordable in comparison to other facilities?

For illiustration, Dismal currently has a program where we will completely waive the join fee if you have an in with a member.  All you have to pay are annual dues. 
  Is this affordable?  It is compared to our peer clubs. 
  How can we do it?  We have little debt/investors to pay off and trying to do something different - attract the purist regardless the wallet.
  We will always be favorable cost wise simply because we want it that way - makes for a cool place.

Remember that every course has a breakeven number and nobody wins if they don't achieve it.  To hit affordable, everyone from the designer to the employees to John Deere/Toro to the ownership have to make less.  Operating these things ain't cheap.

[JMEvensky]

Note:  My son asked me last night why I have spent so much money in my life on golf, he thinks he will be clever and not get hooked, all I could tell him is that it may be expensive but remains much cheaper than divorcing his mother.  Everyman needs an unaffordable vice to keep his sanity, golf is better than all but three.   

I'll guess gambling is one.What are the others?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Prior to the 90's the CCFAD surge of courses was not spiking. I concur with your thoughts.

The raise of fees can be seen around this time -- prior to that fee structures were fairly consistent.

I base this on my observation from the NJ scene -- prior to '90 the Garden State was quite affordable -- with the explosion of countless CCFAD's the fee structure pushed NJ to 8th most expensive place to play in the country. No doubt rising land costs and taxes also played their role too.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Before you can find the answer, you must refine/better define the question.

An example:  Affordable public or private?  Privately owned or (subsidized) muni?

Is an affordable membership attractive?  Is it affordable to you or is affordable in comparison to other facilities?

For illiustration, Dismal currently has a program where we will completely waive the join fee if you have an in with a member.  All you have to pay are annual dues. 
  Is this affordable?  It is compared to our peer clubs. 
  How can we do it?  We have little debt/investors to pay off and trying to do something different - attract the purist regardless the wallet.
  We will always be favorable cost wise simply because we want it that way - makes for a cool place.

Remember that every course has a breakeven number and nobody wins if they don't achieve it.  To hit affordable, everyone from the designer to the employees to John Deere/Toro to the ownership have to make less.  Operating these things ain't cheap.

Sense at last!

[John Kavanaugh]

Note:  My son asked me last night why I have spent so much money in my life on golf, he thinks he will be clever and not get hooked, all I could tell him is that it may be expensive but remains much cheaper than divorcing his mother.  Everyman needs an unaffordable vice to keep his sanity, golf is better than all but three.  

I'll guess gambling is one.What are the others?

I'm sorry but golf can not exist without gambling. I've often thought about giving up gambing but to do so would force me to give up golf.

When I said golf is better than all but three unaffordable vices I meant the opposite of what you must think.  I consider dedicating your life to Jesus an unaffordable vice that is better than golf, no, no I don't. Sorry, I don't know what I meant, I was just bored waiting for my son to get done watching game tape.  

[Jeff Shelman]

I'm much more about value than I am about affordability.

Sometimes $50 is a bad value and $125 is a great value. It totally depends on the course.

I'm a member of a modest club in the Twin Cities. But it has great greens, great people and is very fun. The dues aren't outrageous. I find it to be a very good value and I don't have any issue writing the monthly check.

I had been a member at a different club previously. It was slightly more expensive. The course wasn't in as good of shape as I thought it should be. I didn't agree with the stubborn nature of the super. I didn't think the place was all that well managed by the GM. It became, in time, a bad value.

In terms of public golf, I have a pretty good sense of what is a good value in my town is. There are some courses that are overpriced for what you get. Others are fair and some are great values -- especially if you play at certain times.

When I travel, I look on here, ask someone on here and figure out the best plan of attack. Sometimes I want to play a really good place, regardless of price. Other times, I might play the great course if I can play at twilight. Other times, I might play the best $75 course in town. Other times geography and time are more important and I make decisions based on that. That's part of the reason I've played The Glen Club in Chicago more than once -- it is close to the in-laws and staying close scores points even if the golf is overpriced.

Hence, I think it is more than just wanting affordable golf.

[archie_struthers]

I might be missing something here, but affordable golf is already here, at least in my neck of the woods.  Golf dues are at 1998 levels and all the public venues that are privately owned have dropped their prices dramatically . 

Of course we still have people on board  clamoring  for the government to subsidize or build more inventory , but we've already beat that one to death with no consensus.  SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO we shall continue down the road to perdition that govenrment control of assets will surely bring...

So while there is time , spend the money , play any Doak 7-10 you can and enjoy yur neighborhood links !

[JMEvensky]

Note:  My son asked me last night why I have spent so much money in my life on golf, he thinks he will be clever and not get hooked, all I could tell him is that it may be expensive but remains much cheaper than divorcing his mother.  Everyman needs an unaffordable vice to keep his sanity, golf is better than all but three.  

I'll guess gambling is one.What are the others?

I'm sorry but golf can not exist without gambling. I've often thought about giving up gambing but to do so would force me to give up golf.

When I said golf is better than all but three unaffordable vices I meant the opposite of what you must think.  I consider dedicating your life to Jesus an unaffordable vice that is better than golf, no, no I don't. Sorry, I don't know what I meant, I was just bored waiting for my son to get done watching game tape.  

Fair enough--it was a great line anyway.

Definitely agree about golf and gambling.Like the NFL,take away the gambling and the whole game gets a lot less interesting.

[Sean_A]

Jeff

Like you, I first look for value.  I may be much happier paying $150 somewhere compared $35 somewhere else, but the more golf I play the more difficult it becomes for me to be willing to pay a good whack because usually there isn't any call for it from a quality PoV.  Much of the time history, fame and exclusivity are the reasons for the price tag. 

Adrian

Nobody is suggesting clubs not charge enough to stay afloat.  One of the great thing about golf is everybody has their own reasons for choosing a place a to play - this means a lot of poor and mediocre courses (often times on land not suitable for golf) can stay open and sometimes thrive. 

Ciao

[Doug Siebert]

Everyone has their own idea of what is affordable.  A guy making only enough to just get by is different than someone pulling down $400,000 a year.  I'm sure I have a different idea by virtue of living in Iowa where there aren't any courses in the state as far as I'm aware of that charge over $100, versus someone who lives where more courses than not charge that.

If I moved to the NYC area I'd have to reassess my view of what "affordable" means, while someone moving from there to here would be pleasantly surprised.  He'd have to get over the fact that there aren't any Doak 9s or 10s out here, however as all those in the NYC area are private courses this wouldn't matter to him if he didn't have connections to play them...  Patrick Mucci would really feel that loss moving here, but your average guy who has never set foot on any of those great courses wouldn't miss them.

[Jud_T]

Doug,

Harvester Golf Club.  $109 peak season...

[Dan Herrmann]

Reading through some of the posts over the past few weeks, I am amazed at the number of exclusive, expensive and hard to get on courses that get name dropped on this board. Then turn around and see everyone is clamoring for growing the game and shouting for more affordable golf, less maintenance and wondering why courses and clubs are going under.

Is good golf "mostly" the realm of the rich and well connected? On this board, it would seem so as the number of Pine Valley, LACC, Merion, Oakmont, ANGC, NGLA, etc, etc mentions would lead most anyone to believe so.

Brian - I'm 100% for affordable golf.  I've been fortunate enough to enjoy Merion - it's the best designed course I've ever played.   But low-cost affordable golf is wonderful too.    Lord knows there are some dog tracks out there, but it's a rare course that doesn't have at least a couple of worthwhile holes.

Perfect example of affordable golf?   Jim Blaukovitch's Honeybrook Golf Course in Chester County, PA.  (I think Mr.  Jim Blaukovitch designs fun, affordable, well-designed golf courses and fills an important niche).  This course costs $35 to walk weekdays.

To quote from their website:
"Honeybrook Golf Club sits along the historic West Branch of the Brandywine Creek, among the Amish farms of Chester County, Pennsylvania.

The course is a mixture of wide-open links, tree-lined fairways and subtle elevation changes that combine natural beauty and a great golf layout.

Protected wetlands weave throughout to form breathtaking vistas and memorable target greens. Once you cross the creek, you'll escape from the outside world and hear nothing but the clip-clop of horse-drawn buggies and the chirping of the birds.

The atmosphere is friendly and laid back. Turf conditions are superb. This attention to quality golf, along with the simple beauty of the environment, breeds a loyal following who call Honeybrook their home."

[Matt_Ward]

Trying to get the best of both worlds is not e-z.

Sure, people want to play a Doak rated 8-10 or a top shelf C&C or whoever you fancy for quality work -- but the reality is that few really exist. Tradeoffs happen. Sure, you can have a CommonGround course or Rustic Canyon -- but few really good ones are close to major metro areas. No doubt the pocket of many players will vary dramatically.

I don't see a cutoff of $50-$60 being expensive -- no doubt if someone can only afford a $20 course the numbers I just mentioned would be prohibitive.

Golf is not a cheap game by any means -- and frankly private providers are only interested in cherry-picking off the top tier of players.

Archie still doesn't get it -- likely influenced by the sour taste he got in his area -- but government sponsored courses which provide an entry into the game can really help things.

[Doug Siebert]

Doug,

Harvester Golf Club.  $109 peak season...

They must have raised the price since the last time I was there

[archie_struthers]

Pretty funny that Matt can imperiously state that "Archie doesn't get it" but that's his style. More accurately we disagree as to the role of government subsidized golf , which is OK.  If he ever has to make a payroll at a golf course he owns , or pay the exorbitant real estate taxes he would quite likely flip on this one.

Doesn't anyone else think golf has gotten reaonably inexpensive lately. It's been a long time since you could join some high end clubs with deferred or greatly discounted intiiations and bonds.  Public golf prices keep dropping in our area , despite increased prices for most other activities.

[Matt_Ward]

Archie:

Let's get real shall we.

The privately owned providers of daily fee golf could give a rats ass about providing modest rates for those just looking to play base level designed layouts. You think ALL gov't involvement with golf is wrong -- sorry bud, don't agree with that. I agree that gov't need not go the route of a Chambers Bay but entry players and those with limited means can play at such gov't-owned courses. Govt owned courses of the type I am mentioning would be a feeder system for those who wish to have more options and design quality.

When you say golf has gotten "reasonably inexpensive lately" -- where's the empirical evidence beyond your narrow market area -- and I am making the assumption that that is the case.

Golf is still a big time cost for many people.

[Mac Plumart]

"Doesn't anyone else think golf has gotten reaonably inexpensive lately. It's been a long time since you could join some high end clubs with deferred or greatly discounted intiiations and bonds.  Public golf prices keep dropping in our area , despite increased prices for most other activities."

Archie...YES!  I absolutely do.  A local higher end public course by me has dropped from $125 per round to $45 per round over the last 2 years.  Others have dropped from $125ish to $60ish.  I think that is affordable and I was getting the impression that Atlanta was the only market that had affordable golf. 

Also, private clubs in our area are getting very affordable, each on their own relative basis.  And some of these national memberships are extremely affordable.

[Matt_Ward]

Mac:

Curious to know if prices have only dropped relative to off-season situations.

If the prime times and season are still at or near previous highs then frankly little has changed.

Let me point out what many facilities know to well -- if you start to go the bargain basement route on rates
the likelihood is you will face problems in trying to boost them back up because the marketplace gets quite
ansy when that happens.

[archie_struthers]

Hey guys how do I enable the smileys...LOL

Matt we've argued the  government owned golf question to death , let's give it a rest. Unfortunately , you once again mischaracterized my opinion wihout understanding it fully.  I am for very limited municipal involvement in golf . not no involvement.
Given our pension and budget crises in NJ  spending state or municipal funds on golf doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Partic


Mac , prices are dropping at theJersey Shore , in Delaware , Maryland , Philadelphiia  ,  and many other venus,. Other than the very tip top, cream of the crop  ( Shinnecock, Pine Valley < Merion etc etc ) really superior private clubs are changing their price structure pretty dramatically ...maybe JES  can address that vis a vis Huntingdon Valley , a great old lne Philly private. My guess is it's easier to get in then it used to be. and this is a great golf club with 27 holes  ( and one of my personal favorite archtiects)  I think Aronimink and Whitemarsh have gret y incentivised entry for youger members also.

[Matt_Ward]

Archie:

Define "limited municipal involvement in golf" -- I also did not mistate your original comment -- I never said you wanted NO gov't involvement. Re-read what I wrote -- not what you think I wrote.

In regards to fees -- the issue is not what private courses are charging -- Joe Sixpack is not making any plans to play any or all of the private clubs. The issue is that downsizing on prices is happening at the margins at best. Peak times for the season with top tier tee times still are drawing premium value -- no doubt many courses are developing various loyalty programs which will reward them with continuous return play.

[archie_struthers]

Hey Matt we're not going to talk about the government takeover of golf  ( ps I did re-read your post as you asked and you said , and here it is: "you think ALL governemt involvement in golf is wrong "  but I accept your apology in advance. 

Don' tknow when Joe Sixpack , as you call him (her) was promised high quality golf on the cheap. The market will provide as it is able to . and now the price is dropping due to the elasticity of the supply demand curve....Mac points out Atlanta prices have dropped , I can tell you that Philly , Delaware and South Jersey prices have been moving lower...unless you provide value the consumer does ot frequent your establishment . 

Doon't know the SoCal and Arizona demand curve, but Florida too is dropping prices and courting business ftru discounts...as to the time the prices are discounted,,,,why do you think early birds dinners are so popular

[Carl Rogers]

Why does not this Web Site start a new category of Affordable Golf courses and give out prizes?
(Will that start a big fight???)

Why have the various Golf Publications forsaken the best affordable (or least pretty good) golf course category?

[John Kavanaugh]

Magazines were forced to abandon most affordable when courses cheated on the qualifications. I paid $60/golfer at 6pm on a Sunday at the most affordable course in the nation. Thank God I didn't go there because a magazine told me to.