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David_Elvins

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From another thread

I can tell you that the longer I've been around, the more convinced I am that the prevalence of sand topdressing in the past 20-30 years has pretty much made [the preservation of green contours] of green contours a moot point.

So who knows stuff about this?

What courses have shown evidenc of dramatic changes to green contours due to top dressing?  (pinehurst is a poster child, right?)

Has top dressing only been prevelant in the last 20-30 years?

Other than raising the elevation of the green, how else does it affect contour?  Does it remove internal contour and flatten greens or does it add/change internal contour?

Is top dressing with sand necessary for green maintenance?  Are their other alternatives?

Thanks.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 08:11:49 PM »
David:

I know a bit about it.  ;)  But mostly just from observation and interpretation.  I don't think anyone has really studied it.

Sand topdressing has always been done on courses in Britain, to keep the fescue greens from developing too much thatch.  Everyone from Old Tom Morris to Tom Simpson to Walter Woods has been much quoted on the subject.

In the States, some superintendents have been proponents of topdressing going back for ages, but the USGA Green Section really started promoting the practice in the mid-1980's ... one of my mentors in the superintendent business, Tom Mead, quit Crystal Downs because his green chairman insisted upon a sand topdressing program that Tom thought misguided.  So, for the last 25 years, well-heeled courses have been adding 1/4 to 1/2 inch of sand per year to their greens, on top of what they fill the aerification holes with.

It does start to add up.  On many classic fallaway greens, you can see now that the front of the green is built up 3-4 inches before they start to fall away.  That's all the topdressing sand ... originally a bit of the approach would have drained through the green.  Does it make a big difference in play?  Mostly on chip shots from the perimeter, and on marginal approaches.

Do the green contours change in the process?  Yes, if it's sloppily done.  Plus, on hillier sites with elevated greens, there seems to be extra topdressing at the fronts of the greens which makes the approaches very steep and wrecks the ability to play low shots into the front hole locations.  I saw a lot of that at Cypress Point the last time I made a tour of it.

How much can things change?  Well, to me the classic example is Yeamans Hall.  In the 1930's, they reduced the size of the greens to save $$ on the maintenance budget, but because the greens were common bermudagrass and quite slow, they topdressed heavily to give it some speed.  By the time I first saw it, the smaller area of the new greens had been built up twelve to fourteen inches from original grade ... it was like a mushroom was growing out of the original green.  There was no hint of the ridges and swales which were on Raynor's plan of the greens and which presumably had been buried underneath all the topdressing.  When we rebuilt those greens, we took the sand and spread it out over the entire pad for the original greens, but we had to look back to the plans to get a sense of what sort of contours to restore.

Pinehurst, of course, also had common bermuda greens for many years, and I would guess they are built up just as much as Yeamans Hall's greens were.  They carefully mapped the greens circa 1980 and have tried to preserve them since then ... but that would be like preserving the old mushroom tops at Yeamans.

Is topdressing necessary?  You have to combat the buildup of thatch and organic material ... you can do so either by topdressing, or by aerifying, or the combination of both.  Golfers don't like aerification because the greens are bad for a couple of weeks afterwards, so the reliance on topdressing has increased in recent years.

P.S.  No course I know of topdresses more frequently than they do in Bandon ... but in Bandon, they topdress 20-30 yards out away from the greens, so the buildup shouldn't come into play, except around greenside bunkers which become deeper as the turf around them rises up.

Chris Buie

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Chris Johnston

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 08:26:26 PM »
David

We started aggresively top dressing greens and fairways at Teton Pines in Jackson Hole 10 or so years ago.  Very beneficial.

Tom:  I can't speak for Bandon but we top dress extensively at Dismal River...both voluntarily and involuntarily. ::)  And, yes it has changes green contours on more than one hole.

David_Elvins

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 07:46:45 PM »
Tom, thanks for the info.  Very comprehensive.

Chris B, Thanks for posting, I hope Dunlop White deson't mind if I reproduce it in this thread.  What I feen really interesting is the relationship between the change of contour and greensize. Fascinating the way the greens were restored to their original size without regard for their original contour. 

Green contour changes - produced by Dunlop White



Chris J,

Are they Bermuda fairways you are top dressing? What benefits have you found in top dressing fairways? How much sand do you go through?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Niall C

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 02:09:26 PM »

P.S.  No course I know of topdresses more frequently than they do in Bandon ... but in Bandon, they topdress 20-30 yards out away from the greens, so the buildup shouldn't come into play, except around greenside bunkers which become deeper as the turf around them rises up.

Seriously !?! They don't top-dress the bunkers ?

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 02:19:20 PM »
In 1997, the greens at Pine Tree were rebuilt to USGA specs and sprigged with Tifdwaft. In 2005, the greens were again renovated and sprigged with tifeagle, along with the approaches. All the contractor did was remove the 4" of thatch/sand topdressing that had accumulated over 8 years.
  In my time here, we have built up nearly 2" of topdressing. In fact, we can see our Graden marks from the summer of 2009 and they are nearly 2" deep. We topdress about 40 times a year. Our grass really seems to love sand. The firmness, the ball roll is so much better.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom_Doak

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 02:21:15 PM »
Anthony:

What is a Graden mark?  I'm not familiar with what you mean there.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 02:42:15 PM »
TD,
  Graden is a deep verticutting that originated in Australia. It cuts in at depths of 1" and removes as much, or more organic material than a 1/2", 2x2 core aerification. There are 2 types of machines-one that injects the sand directly into the line and one the just removes. Here are some photos fromour usage.


Sand Inject on putting green


Thatch removed from tifeagle tee


Graden lines prior to sand
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 02:43:50 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Chris Johnston

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Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

Chris J,

Are they Bermuda fairways you are top dressing? What benefits have you found in top dressing fairways? How much sand do you go through?
[/quote]

Teton Pines has bluegrass fairways.  I would estimate we put a bit less than 1/8 inch per year on the fairways.  The underlying media is glacial scree (rocks) topped by a variable layer of dirt.  This has had a big impact in conditions and has aided in thatch reduction.

Hope it helps.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 06:45:32 PM »
At Wolf Point we have top dressed the greens and surrounds/approaches every other week during the growing season since we started playing golf, but we go light.
Like all processes in golf course management everything you do is integrated with everything else you do. Water and fert a lot to keep things green and you'll have more thatch to combat in an attempt to keep it firm which means more sand and more reels getting dinged up...which means more grinding...which means more machines are needed....and more people are needed...and on and on and on.

Top dressing is an essential part of any green's management program. But like everything else we do, overdoing it can be expensive and can lead to unintended consequences.     

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Who knows stuff about top dressing and it's affect on green contour?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 10:22:51 PM »
From another thread

I can tell you that the longer I've been around, the more convinced I am that the prevalence of sand topdressing in the past 20-30 years has pretty much made [the preservation of green contours] of green contours a moot point.

So who knows stuff about this?

What courses have shown evidenc of dramatic changes to green contours due to top dressing?  (pinehurst is a poster child, right?)

David, I'd have to question the systemic effect of top dressing on contour.
At courses that I'm familiar with, there hasn't been any appreciable change in contour over a 45+ year period.

Top dressing seems to be evenly distributed, through mechanical processes, and mother nature.
Dragging, mowing, irrigation, gravity and wind tend to even out the application, thus, no one area tends to suffer from build up or no build up.


Has top dressing only been prevelant in the last 20-30 years?

"Prevelant", may be the key word.
It's certainly been around longer, but, the number of applications and degree of applications is probably more pronounced today than it was three decades ago


Other than raising the elevation of the green, how else does it affect contour?  Does it remove internal contour and flatten greens or does it add/change internal contour?

I don't think it appreciably changes contour for the reasons I stated above


Is top dressing with sand necessary for green maintenance?  Are their other alternatives?

I'll leave that for the experts to answer


Thanks.

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