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Michael Dugger

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build - Part 3 Now Posted
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2011, 06:11:45 PM »
Wonder if Chambers Bay will be included in the final four... :-X

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Adam Russell

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build - Part 3 Now Posted
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2011, 06:33:40 PM »
Tom,

The first time I talked with Mike McCartin was when he asked me if I knew anyone at Reynolds Plantation that could get the golf class he taught out and looking around at Harmony. I never found out if he got there, but that was the first time I had spoke to him, and without meeting him I probably would have need gotten the urge to go for the internship.

Supposedly the grade stakes are still in the ground - I tried to find out one day after caddying but didn't want to get arrested for trespassing. The funny part is that some professor at UGA got ahold of the site plan, and used it as a design exercise, so there's copies of the site that float around as really bad conservation subdivions at the LA school. Someone even used it as a senior project

Has Reynolds ever approached you about reviving it?
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build - Part 3 Now Posted
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2011, 06:55:37 PM »
JNC:  Olde Kinderhook was a long time ago.  There's really no telling if I could have built something great that far back.

Michael:  No Chambers Bay.  I had a couple of my associates go out there and check out the project, and we did put together a proposal, but we figured the politics were already wired by someone else and there was no chance they'd pick us.  We didn't even make their top 5 to interview for the job!  I thought Pacific Dunes would have given us a little more credibility there.

Adam:  When Reynolds picked up the lease on the property, they did talk to me about it, but they were already committed not only to their Jim Engh course but to another designer after that.  Obviously, real estate is not selling at the same pace it used to, so I am not surprised I haven't heard from them for a while now.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build - Part 3 Now Posted
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2011, 07:18:42 PM »
With thanks to Scott Warren for hosting my pictures, I will present course no. 15 separately ... the Farm Course at Cape Kidnappers.

*15.  Cape Kidnappers (Farm Course), 2008.

One of the great things about working at Cape Kidnappers was having free run of all 5000 acres of the sheep station while we were building the course.  We would go up the hill in the morning and come back down at dark, and at lunchtime, we would sometimes go check out other parts of the property.  There is even a stretch of dunes along the ocean side of the peninsula, but it was so hard to get to, it didn't seem reasonable to locate a course there, and it only looked big enough for nine holes between the sea and some outrageously steep hillsides.

There were really only two feasible sites for golf on the property ... the site we built on, which might have fit 27 holes if we had worked in the next two fields further toward the entrance, and a deep valley out near Black Reef, a couple of miles past today's pro shop.  The attention garnered to the course we've built proves that we made the right choice, but I always felt kind of sad that most people never got to see the rest of the property and the true scale of the place.  

So, in 2007-08, I suggested to Julian Robertson that he consider building a second 18 holes at the Cape.  The working name was the Farm course, because the idea was to build a low-cost course with just irrigated greens and tees, for a truer N.Z. experience for the guests and an affordable option for New Zealanders to visit the property.  Bruce Hepner and I went down and laid it out, stuck flags in the ground, hit some balls around it, and came up with a tight budget.  But unfortunately, our routing would have necessitated a couple of long bridges over the ravines in the valley, and the bridges came in at $1.5 million, more than the rest of the construction put together, which killed the deal for now.  

Someday, perhaps when I'm ready to retire, I want to revisit this one.  You're about to see why.



Julian's original proposed site for The Lodge at Cape Kidnappers was on this point, overlooking Black Reef and the last bay around to Cape Kidnappers Point.  It's a pretty iconic image, yet a lot of the resort guests never get to see it.  Since the lodge site was shot down, I thought it might make a good site for our 17th green, above.

As at Black Forest, our idea for the routing was to play down into the property from above, and finish down below.  This would have given us one of the most memorable first holes in golf, a long dogleg right over the corner of the ravine.  Out in the water, in the distance, you can see the top of "the tooth" and you might even aim for it.



We would need a big bridge to get across the ravine for the par-3 second hole, and then there were several holes playing up an open paddock below the first tee, and back down again, before going up over a ridge.  At the far end, there was a great natural par-3 waiting for us ... that's Bruce Hepner down on the green, planting the flag.  



But this might have only been a place to hit an extra ball, because climbing back up out of that valley wouldn't have been much fun.

One other aspect of the course was that we had a couple of holes that would have made Charles Blair Macdonald blush.  The first of them was the tenth, which I had already christened the "Southern Alps" hole.  The tee was out on a narrow spit of ground, and the hole played across a rising paddock and then the second shot up through the notch in the far ridge ... probably 60 feet high ... to a green in a bowl halfway down the back side.



If that wasn't enough, my par-4 13th was a hole I don't think anyone would have argued over calling a "Cape" green.  It was a dogleg left along the side of a steep hill ... the green stuck out into the loop of a deep creek, like this.



Working our way back over the two ravines to the water's edge would probably have been a bit of an anticlimax.


« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 07:21:25 PM by Tom_Doak »

Tom_Doak

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The Farm course, incidentally, was NOT one of the potential projects that I thought was a top-100 candidate, because our ideas for it were so modest.  But, on reflection, maybe I undersold it to Julian.  Like its big sister, there would be no other course like it anywhere that I know of.

Eric Smith

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I really do hope you get to build that golf course someday, Tom.  What an amazing looking place.

PCCraig

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Tom:

Re: the Farm... WOW!!!

I hope it works out sometime in the future.... :)
H.P.S.

Garland Bayley

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The "Real" Lost Farm
 ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

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Tom:

Please retire -- the sooner, the better.

Wow...

Wade Whitehead

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The CK Farm property is jaw dropping.

WW

Mike Nuzzo

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At this point in my career I would have a very hard time handling any of these near misses.
But with this last one dangled under my nose, I'd probably wind up being a bull fighter.
Thank you for sharing Tom.
I think you have great patience.
Cheers


p.s.
You not making the Chambers Bay interview is eye opening for sure.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Garland Bayley

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...
You not making the Chambers Bay interview is eye opening for sure.

Being a big name in golf at that time does not necessarily mean you are a big name with County Commissioners. I talked to one of the Pierce County Commissioners who told me they went for the "big name".
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brett_Morrissy

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Tom: thanks for a fascinating list!

Do you see any patterns Geographically, groupings of courses completed or offers - do you see in limitations put on RGD when you are looking a two projects close to each other geographically, or near an existing design of yours, or even perhaps philosophically close to each other. In the office, is there a World Map with red pins and green pins??? :)

assuming you are down to the last 2-3 (except for CB?) every time, is it mostly money that sees the project not come to fruition, in your hands or anyone elses?

...and with Kidnappers "Farm" project, I would have thoughts the pockets deep enough over there to cover a few ravine spans?? ;)
 - I agree that you may have undersold the potential, and finished product to Mr Robertson, even a Sheep Ranch style set up would have been a super addition to the existing course in both feel and golf, an excellent contrast to guests.

Brett
@theflatsticker

Tom_Doak

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(part 4)

Sorry I don't have any pictures to share of these last three.  Maybe Pat Brockwell has one he can post.


*16.  TPC at Port Vincent, Port Washington, WI, 2007.  In 2007, we were working on plans for a new TPC course to be built along the shore of Lake Michigan, a few miles north of Milwaukee.  It was to be part of a massive development, but the developers were committed to building at least a few holes along the lake bluff.  The permitting for the project was pretty complicated, because there were some pockets of wetlands along the bluffs where the farmers had tried to stop drainage flow from eroding the cliff edge, and it was not clear whether the state's environmental agency would allow us to clear these man-made wetlands.  While we were trying to sort that out, the housing market collapsed and the project along with it.

Best hole:  We did so many versions of this plan, I honestly can't remember what the last one of them was, but I think it included a par-3 17th and par-5 18th hole along the bluffs with Lake Michigan to the right, and a created ravine to the left of the 18th off the tee.


*17.  Penstemon Valley GC, Mullen, NE, 2008.  In 2008, I spent several days on a site in Nebraska, doing a routing for a friend who wanted to build a sister club to the Sand Hills GC, who would then manage it for him.  Since the idea was very hush-hush, I had the rare treat of spending a few days with Dick and Barb Youngscap at their home down along the Dismal River in the back forty of the Sand Hills property.  Naturally, though, my friend pulled the plug as soon as the economy hit the skids, and Dick believes that the course could not be financially successful in the current economy.


Best hole:  We had a couple of holes laid out around a giant, 15-acre blowout;  Mr. Youngscap thought I was crazy to be looking anywhere near there, but I figured we would grass in a good part of it with golf holes, so that it would be stable.  The par-4 third hole went up and around the rim of the blowout; that was a crazy-dramatic hole, but not more so than the par-4 sixteenth coming back through the floor of it.  Here as well, I found a place to build a version of the Alps hole at National, if we wanted to.  But there were so many good holes on that plan, I'd rather try to forget it for now.


*18.  Black Mesa GC, Espanola, NM, 2008-09.  In 2008-09, we did a routing for a second 18 holes at Black Mesa in New Mexico, as you all know.  Just after we completed the routing, the potential financial backer pulled out of the deal, so for now it's going nowhere fast, but hopefully, this one still has a chance of happening someday.

Best hole:  Two of my associates and one of my interns had each spent a bunch of time on site before I visited, so we had a tentative routing plan ready that was a composite of their ideas.  However, out near the far end of the property, there is a very broad desert wash that has caused a fair bit of havoc over the years, and I thought that all of the routings had at least one hole that would get wiped out in a twenty-year rain event, so I spent a lot of time looking at that particular stretch of the property.  Finally, I found a way to incorporate a crossover in the routing, and re-route three of the holes backwards, so that the most washout-prone stretch of the ground could be carried with a good tee shot, instead of coming into play in the fairway or approach.  The re-routed holes would be the sixth and seventh and the fourteenth coming back the other way, and while the seventh was really the hole that solved the problem, the par-4 sixth, up along the side of the big wash, might have been the most photogenic hole of the bunch.  This was also the site where we were considering building a par-6 hole for our long fifteenth ... the crossover I described left us about 750 yards to cover between #14 green and #16 tee, so it's either a long par-5 with a 100-yard walk to the next tee [a fabulous-looking hole], or a par 6 with the green just around the corner and out of sight from the tee.




Tom_Doak

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To address Brett's questions:

By my scoring, about 25% of the jobs were lost to a competing designer, but the last of those was in 2002 -- I have learned not to put a lot of effort into jobs I don't think we will get.  Another 25% were lost to politics [zoning], and the remaining 50% lost due to the economy or to other financial failures.

So, now you know why I am hesitant to talk about a project before it is really under construction.  I know a fair percentage won't happen; and when someone floats a trial balloon on Golf Club Atlas trying to find money for their project, that is probably a bad sign.  In retrospect, I guess it's amazing that projects like Barnbougle and Ballyneal actually DID get built, where so many others fell by the wayside.

The question of exclusivity in contracts is an interesting one, but very tough to deal with.  Every client, to some extent, believes that at least part of our fee is justified by the right to use our names to promote sales, whether we are talking home sales or just tee times, so they all think we shouldn't do another project anywhere close to theirs anytime soon.  But, what's a reasonable time frame for that?  And how the heck could you really pay me enough for exclusivity, to justify my turning down a great job down the road which would pay me a million dollars to design their course -- especially in this economy, when jobs are so scarce?  In the end, it usually comes down to a mutual understanding of the realities of each other's businesses and a desire not to get in the way of the other guy's success.

Phil McDade

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Tom:

A question if you're indulging them this morning. One of things I've noticed in some of these routing discussions (and honestly, the Erin Hills one prompted this question) is the notion of hole corridors, and the ability/willingness to simply reverse a particular hole corridor (the current 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holes at Erin Hills being one chief example I thought of immediately).

I don't mean to re-hash the whole EHills routing decisions; rather, I'm struck that simpy reversing hole corridors --placing a tee where a green might have been originally, and vice versa -- can be (perhaps often is?) a way to solve a routing puzzle. Is that the case? I know; it depends. But I'm curious if you think, broadly speaking, hole corridors sometimes work just as well going one way, as well as the opposite way?

Eric Smith

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Tom,

Thanks for the thread. Patience and persistence are two admirable traits in business and your list here, 18 projects, could probably be a lot longer if you wanted to extend it. I was thinking you were going to include two other projects that I recall you were at one time optimistic about, those being South Caicos and Costa Rica. Wasn't there a Paul Allen project, also in the Caribbean, or am I confusing him with Sir Allen?

PThomas

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i'm REALLY sad the WI course fell thru :'(
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Peter Zarlengo

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Tom,

Here are some photos from the Black Mesa site.







It was incredible hearing about your potential projects and seeing the shakeup with new ones coming in, just after the economy tanked in 2008-2009. It is equally interesting seeing two decades play out, the changes in the nature of the potential projects, and what you're looking for on some incredible pieces of land. Thanks.

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build (Part 2 now posted)
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2011, 10:15:43 AM »
(part 2)

10.  Castlegregory, Ireland, 2003-04.  I made three trips to this property on the Dingle Peninsula, where Bill Coore and I had been hired to design 36 holes side by side on some common-owned land that our American client had tied up for developing the courses.  My site was on Dingle Bay; Bill's was across the road on the ocean side of a narrow north-south spit of land.  We both completed our routings, but our client suddenly lost interest during the permitting phase [I think because of cash flow issues], and he allowed his option agreements on the land to expire.  Others have looked into this property with the idea of resurrecting the project, but one who did told me that the previous client had burned so many bridges locally that it would never happen.

Best hole:  There were a few of them here.  The long par-4 thirteenth, with a green set high in the dunes, would have been a stunner; and the very next hole would have been a 280-yard par 4 across wrinkly ground with the green in a narrow hollow.  There was a par-3 out along Dingle Bay that was just laying there, too … I think it was going to be the ninth in our last version of the plan.



Tom,
       In 2005 I played Castlegregory. I remember it being 9 holes, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Was any of the original 9 utilized in the new 36?

Phil McDade

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i'm REALLY sad the WI course fell thru :'(

Which one? :D

PThomas

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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jim Nugent

Maybe if we mount an email/write-in campaign to Julian Robertson, he will reconsider the Farm. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Tom:

A question if you're indulging them this morning. One of things I've noticed in some of these routing discussions (and honestly, the Erin Hills one prompted this question) is the notion of hole corridors, and the ability/willingness to simply reverse a particular hole corridor (the current 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holes at Erin Hills being one chief example I thought of immediately).

I don't mean to re-hash the whole EHills routing decisions; rather, I'm struck that simpy reversing hole corridors --placing a tee where a green might have been originally, and vice versa -- can be (perhaps often is?) a way to solve a routing puzzle. Is that the case? I know; it depends. But I'm curious if you think, broadly speaking, hole corridors sometimes work just as well going one way, as well as the opposite way?

Phil:

On many sites, you are not confined to corridors at all.  However, if you are in dunes, you're generally going to play through the valleys; and if you are trying to change an existing course with mature trees, you are going to tend to want to use the same corridors, like we have just done at North Shore CC, instead of playing cross-ways.  So, in those instances, you wind up playing back up the corridor that you were going to play down.

At Erin Hills there are a lot of holes that are essentially backwards from the routing I did, though stopping and starting in different places.  That 15th hole I spoke of on my course was the rare example of where the two different firms used holes that played 90 degrees different in direction.

Tom_Doak

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Tom,

Thanks for the thread. Patience and persistence are two admirable traits in business and your list here, 18 projects, could probably be a lot longer if you wanted to extend it. I was thinking you were going to include two other projects that I recall you were at one time optimistic about, those being South Caicos and Costa Rica. Wasn't there a Paul Allen project, also in the Caribbean, or am I confusing him with Sir Allen?

Eric:

I've never met Paul Allen, nor told much of anyone about my visit with Sir Allen before this thread, so I don't know what you are talking about for sure.  Steve Case was the client for Costa Rica [and he owns Kapalua, too, actually], so perhaps you confused one tech mogul with another.  That contract is suspended, but I think it might happen in a few years; he is just waiting for the market down there to make sense again.  The South Caicos project is also still a long-term possibility; I actually spoke with the client the other day, they have started to sell a bit of real estate, but not in enough volume to commit to building a golf course yet.

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