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Tom_Doak

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(Part one of four)

When Mike McGuire suggested this list a week ago, my first reaction was that nobody would really want to see a woulda-coulda-shoulda list.  And I doubted that there were ten examples worth talking about.

Then I sat down and thought about it, and so many forgotten projects popped back into my mind!  A handful of them are painful memories, either because we got stiffed on a big chunk of our fee, or just because it was frustrating to see a project die on the vine.  I honestly believed that seven or eight of the courses I will list had the potential to be one of the top 100 courses in America or in the world, and I hate it that I didn't get to find out whether that was true.  If we hadn't had a few successes to balance the scales, I'd probably have torn out all my hair by now.  

I thought the list would be instructive for those of you not in the business to see just how many irons in the fire one has to keep in order to have some projects which DO get built.  These aren't the only projects which failed to get built, by any means -- these are just the special ones!  All together, I've had more signed contracts for courses that didn't get built, than for courses that did.  

But now that the need for secrecy on these projects has expired, I think I can talk about what might have been, without my clients being upset about it.  I will present the list in four parts, and in chronological order.  (An asterisk indicates a project where we were paid for the routing work we did.)  Here goes:


THE EIGHTEEN BEST COURSES I NEVER GOT TO BUILD


1.  Karsten Creek GC, Oklahoma State University, 1991-92.  Scott Verplank introduced me to his coach, Mike Holder, who had raised most of the money already for his golf course project but had become concerned that Tom Fazio, who he'd talked to about the course from the start, was now out of their price range.  I can still remember the routing I did pretty well, 18 years later … there was a reachable par-5 hole I was particularly fond of, playing along the edge of one of the ravines.  But, Coach Holder lost confidence in me after coming to visit High Pointe and Black Forest, and not liking the greens there.  They actually hired Mark Hayes and Jerry Slack to design the course after a formal interview process, but then the coach went back and pleaded with Fazio to do the job, and he did.  [Mike Holder, now the A.D. at Oklahoma State, has referred me for a job or two in recent years.]

Best hole:  The second, a short par-5.  The fairway played along the edge of a ravine, with open water down to the right.  The green sat on the other side of a valley that fed down into the ravine diagonally back toward the tee, so the green would have almost come to a point in the front, and then had a swale along the left side and a cliff to the right.  Still waiting to find another setting to build a hole like it.  I have never been back to Stillwater, so I don't know exactly where this hole falls on the current course, but I did see a map of it and I saw they didn't use my green site.


2.  High Pointe GC (third nine), 1992.  When things were going well at High Pointe, I did a layout for a third nine holes to the east of the present back nine.  It's very dramatic, sandy ground, more like the back nine than the front; but they never got around to acting on it.

Best hole:  The drivable par-4 ninth.  From a high tee, it played to a green on the next hilltop a bit below … the fairway ran up a narrowish valley running from right to left for those who didn't want to go for the direct carry.


3.  Olde Kinderhook GC, NY, 1994.  I tried pretty hard to get the job at this Rees Jones design south of Albany, NY.  Made two trips to the site, and spent a lot of time with the owner trying to convince him my routing was better than Rees'.  The client made a trip to Stonewall and Rees' Huntsville course near Scranton.  He could not decide which one he liked better, so he said he hired the bigger name.  There was a time when I got sick of hearing that ... the only solution is to become the bigger name.

Best hole:  This is the only course in the list where I can't remember the holes individually now.  The site had a lot of variety to it and what I liked most was the flow of the routing through the various landscapes.


4.  Elk Neck Club, Elk Neck, MD, 1997.   A Wall Street group was behind this project, at the northern end of the Chesapeake Bay, and were trying to decide between me and Tom Fazio as their architect.  Great piece of ground, with a lot of variety … woods, hills, open spaces, views, wetlands, and frontage on the bay.  The last two were its downfall; the county told them it would be very difficult to get construction permits, so they abandoned plans to pursue the project.

Best hole:  The par-4 third, about 420 yards.  It played downhill and sidehill left to right, with the approach shot over a small ravine down to a green near a boathouse and the bay.


*5.  Elm Charolais GC, Erin, WI, 1997.  In 1997, we signed a contract to design and build a golf course on the site now known as Erin Hills.  Our client spent a bunch of cash trying to pre-sell memberships for the course, but they just didn't know enough people to get the momentum to make it happen.  Eventually, their option to buy the land expired.  I looked at the project again with a second party, and was interviewed for the job by Bob Lang when he bought the ground in 2001 … but he decided to find his own design team instead.

Best holes:  my par-4 second, with a long second shot to a green perched at the edge of a steep fall-off to the right … the hole started from the present eleventh tee, but the existing hole stops short of my green site.  Also, the par-4 15th hole, a dogleg from somewhere near the current eighth tee, up the valley where Ron Whitten placed his Dell hole [the bank behind it was also part of my fairway], and then turning left to a green site in the hollow between the sixth tee and green.  I really wish they had used that hole!

« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 01:28:59 PM by Tom_Doak »

Greg Krueger

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 01:20:22 PM »
Tom, thank you so much for that. In my business it is a similar situation where I talk to about 25 potential customers
to get 1 deal. Takes alot patience & diligence!

jonathan_becker

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 01:22:36 PM »
Thanks, Tom for the list.  It's cool to read about the best holes you've chosen in relation to what's currently there.  I would have loved to see the routing for EH as it sounds nothing like what's presently there.

Rob Bice

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 01:24:58 PM »
Tom-
Great list.  In the situations where a course is built do you make a point to visit the ultimate finished product?  Looking forward to seeing the rest of the list.
"medio tutissimus ibis" - Ovid

Don_Mahaffey

Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 02:16:58 PM »
Cool list. Goes to show how much effort guys like Tom have to put in before "making" it.

You don't strike me as a country music person but you have probably heard the Garth Brooks song about unanswered prayers? Any projects that as it turns out your glad you didn't get...at least any you can talk about?

John Blain

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 02:24:07 PM »
The owner of Olde Kinderhook made a HUGE MISTAKE by not hiring you for that job. I honestly think Rees Jones sold that guy a bill of goods. The course is very, very diffficult, tough to walk and overall not a place where you would enjoy playing on a regular basis. I can see why you would have wanted the job, it's a nice property with lots of potential. He could have had Doak and he picked Rees instead. Damn shame.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 02:45:05 PM »
Tom,

Speaking of Huntsville, there's a site I would have liked to see you get.   Very Olde Kinderhookian, although Rees did a much better job with it in NY than he did in PA.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 02:49:17 PM »
Cool list. Goes to show how much effort guys like Tom have to put in before "making" it.

You don't strike me as a country music person but you have probably heard the Garth Brooks song about unanswered prayers? Any projects that as it turns out your glad you didn't get...at least any you can talk about?


Don:

One course I did not even think to include in this, until your question, was Old Head GC in Ireland.  I worked on routings for that course in 1992, and shook hands on a deal to design it, but wound up being shunted aside for a whole variety of reasons.  It was obviously a spectacular site, but I could never get comfortable that you could make a truly great 18-hole course out of it, and the course they built did not convince me I was wrong.  Still, I'm lucky I didn't hang in there on it, because they ran out of money halfway through with the first architect, and that would have been me.


Rob Bice:

I have not made a particular point of getting back to see these projects, because I'll be asked to comment on what was built, and I am already predisposed to think that I would have done it better.  If I could just go and walk the course incognito, I'd love to do that, but it's not as easy to go incognito as it once was.  When I went to Erin Hills, unannounced and solo, I didn't even make it out of the parking lot before Bob Lang drove up to say hello!

Terry Lavin

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2011, 03:02:32 PM »
Cool list. Goes to show how much effort guys like Tom have to put in before "making" it.

You don't strike me as a country music person but you have probably heard the Garth Brooks song about unanswered prayers? Any projects that as it turns out your glad you didn't get...at least any you can talk about?


Don:

One course I did not even think to include in this, until your question, was Old Head GC in Ireland.  I worked on routings for that course in 1992, and shook hands on a deal to design it, but wound up being shunted aside for a whole variety of reasons.  It was obviously a spectacular site, but I could never get comfortable that you could make a truly great 18-hole course out of it, and the course they built did not convince me I was wrong.  Still, I'm lucky I didn't hang in there on it, because they ran out of money halfway through with the first architect, and that would have been me.


Rob Bice:

I have not made a particular point of getting back to see these projects, because I'll be asked to comment on what was built, and I am already predisposed to think that I would have done it better.  If I could just go and walk the course incognito, I'd love to do that, but it's not as easy to go incognito as it once was.  When I went to Erin Hills, unannounced and solo, I didn't even make it out of the parking lot before Bob Lang drove up to say hello!

Which begs the question: Considering that they want to hold a US Open there, what did you think of Erin Hills?  To me, I thought it was a great test of USGA Championship golf, just like Chambers appears to be on television, a brutal, aerial attack golf course that "looks" like a links to the untrained eye.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

PCCraig

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 03:14:23 PM »
Fantastic, thank you for posting Tom!

I would love to see your full routing for the land at Erin Hills. Just a quick legal question: are you even allowed to show us your routing on a property where the owners decided to go with another designer, or does the developer own the plans?
H.P.S.

Matthew Sander

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 03:31:53 PM »
Thanks Tom, I'm looking forward to the rest of the list. It's interesting to read the sausage-making backstories explaining why they didn't work out juxtaposed with your creative ideas for the properties...

JC Jones

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 03:34:13 PM »
Tom,

Are there any courses that you did a routing for, lost out to another architect, and felt that what the other architect put together was at least as good as what you did?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2011, 03:41:13 PM »
Mr. Lavin:

You'll have to keep begging.


Pat Craig:

Legally, I'm sure I could show you the routing I did for Erin Hills, since it was not Mr. Lang but a different developer who paid me to do it.  And for some of these projects, the ones without an asterisk, I did the routings on my own time so they are my property and not bound by any contract.  For some of the others, it might be considered proprietary information; but often, if we did a routing, they put it into the public domain some way or another to try and get permits or sell memberships.

I did provide my routing for Erin Hills as part of the design competition on this site a few months back, although it was not my complete routing, because I had 2-3 holes on property that Hurdzan & Fry didn't use and therefore was not part of the topo for the contest.  I think my routing finished fifth in the competition, proving only that the judges didn't walk the site as much as I did!  But, I only did that on the condition that the routing NOT be put up side by side against the real Erin Hills for comparison.  That wouldn't be fair to Mike Hurdzan and crew, and I am not doing this thread for the purpose of competing with projects that were built by someone else.


Tim Bert

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2011, 03:46:49 PM »

Which begs the question: Considering that they want to hold a US Open there, what did you think of Erin Hills?  To me, I thought it was a great test of USGA Championship golf, just like Chambers appears to be on television, a brutal, aerial attack golf course that "looks" like a links to the untrained eye.

Based on my two days around Chambers, I wouldn't characterize that course as "a brutal, aerial attack golf course that 'looks' like a links to the untrained eye."  That might well describe Erin Hills, but I haven't played it or seen it so I don't know.  I think your comparison, if you wanted the rest of the post to remain unedited, would have been more aptly made to Whistling Straits.  That course fits the description you applied to Chambers Bay perfectly well.  Chambers Bay has much more authenticity of firm and fast, ground options, and links-style golf than Whistling Straits.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2011, 03:48:00 PM »
Wow, I can't believe Karsten Creek was almost built by the dynamic duo of Hayes/Slack!!   That would have been a site to see!!  ::)

The greens at Karsten are very mild by High Pointe/Black Wilderness standards thats for sure and at the speed they run its a good thing.

It would have been very interesting to see what might have been if Holder had taken the chance.

Terry Lavin

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2011, 03:50:03 PM »
Tom Doak:

I thought you might demur!  Smart man.

Tim Bert:

As I noted in my post, I've only seen Chambers Bay on television, so you may well be correct in your statements, but I've heard some different comments in that regard, specifically from one of the players who made it into weekend play.  Either way, it looks spectacular and it looks like it could be made to be murderously hard.  And I agree with your assessment of Whistling Straits, which makes it all the more amazing that it's rated as high as it is!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 03:50:56 PM »
JC:

The first course that comes to mind is the Moorland course at The Legends, built by P.B. Dye.  Gil Hanse and I did a plan for that course, but we struggled to figure out how to make the course dramatic on the flat ground they had to work with.  P.B. went way out of the box on earthmoving there, doing far more than I could imagine doing at that time, and I thought some of his ideas were way cooler than anything we thought of -- even though the course also has a couple of funky holes.

We also worked on a routing for Clear Creek in Lake Tahoe, but lost out on the job to Bill Coore after it changed hands.  [Our client in Montana, Bill Foley, was thinking about taking the lead on the project, so we would not have had to compete if he'd been the developer.]  I have not seen the course, but I've seen pictures, and I'm sure Bill's course is at least as good as what we had planned.  Amazingly, that's the only job I have lost out to Bill on, that we have competed for directly.  He and Ben did interview for the first job at Stonewall, way back when, and concluded their presentation by saying that if the owner didn't hire them, they should hire me and Gil!

I am sure there are other courses I've lost out on where the other guy did a great job, but I've tried to stay away from critiquing in such scenarios.

Patrick Glynn

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 04:24:50 PM »
Interesting thread.

Tom - can I ask for your thoughts on the course you were going to build in Castlegregory, County Kerry - Kilshannig I believe it was called. My dream is to revive that project, get planning permission and build a Tom Doak course in Ireland!

Patrick

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2011, 04:30:27 PM »
Patrick:

That one's in part 2, or maybe part 3 even.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2011, 04:34:12 PM »
Tom,

This list is very interesting. Thanks for sharing this info.

What year was Stonewall? Hearing that Bill and Ben interviewed for the job before you and Gil went out and completed the course makes me wonder about the original developer there. In other words, the names "Doak" and "Coore and Crenshaw" weren't what they are today, then (I don't think). It's interesting that the developer(s) at Stonewall consider you both, at that time.

For a younger guy in the business, such as myself, it's also interesting/encouraging to hear about you losing jobs to "bigger names", years ago. I just went through the same thing shortly before Christmas, where I made a short-list of two, at a job I really wanted, but didn't get the nod. Onward.
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2011, 04:47:55 PM »
Tom,

This list is very interesting. Thanks for sharing this info.

What year was Stonewall? Hearing that Bill and Ben interviewed for the job before you and Gil went out and completed the course makes me wonder about the original developer there. In other words, the names "Doak" and "Coore and Crenshaw" weren't what they are today, then (I don't think). It's interesting that the developer(s) at Stonewall consider you both, at that time.

For a younger guy in the business, such as myself, it's also interesting/encouraging to hear about you losing jobs to "bigger names", years ago. I just went through the same thing shortly before Christmas, where I made a short-list of two, at a job I really wanted, but didn't get the nod. Onward.


Jeff:

Stonewall was in 1992, and you are right, we weren't the most obvious choices back then. 

Tom Fazio had done a routing for the course, but then he and the owners got far apart on budget and schedule, and he told them he was okay with their finding someone else.  They interviewed four firms, the other two being Bob Cupp [not sure why he was on their list] and Bruce Devlin [who was finishing up Secession, where one of the founders was involved].  They got my name from the oddest possible source, a young man who had worked on our crew at Piping Rock, and knew the contractor who was involved.

I did ask Mr. May how he managed to decide on me over Bill and Ben, and he said that it was imperative to him to get the golf course built that summer, and Bill just wouldn't commit to being able to do it that quickly; he thought it would take Dave and Dan a year and a half.  Believe it or not, we signed the contract in March and planted the last hole that same October!

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build (Part 2 now posted)
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2011, 07:06:35 PM »
(part 2)

6.  The National Golf Club, Cape Schanck, Australia, 1998.  Mike Clayton and Don Placek and I spent several days wandering the site and drawing up a plan for 36 holes when the club held open interviews for the job.  Peter Thomson's firm had done the initial planning work on the project for free, so they were pretty solidly set to get one course; I thought we had a good chance on the second course, but then Greg Norman offered to have his partners (Macquarie Bank) buy the real estate block the club was hoping to sell to finance the thing, to wrap up the deal for himself.  It might have been the first place I did a course alongside one from Bill and Ben, in slightly different circumstances.

Best hole:  Par-5 eighth hole on our Upper course.  Tee shot played across a broad valley, but to go for the green in two, you had to thread through a little neck on the left into a narrower valley … much like the 8th at Ballyneal, but gentler.  Green sat on top of a knoll, with a run-up entrance at the left and a steep fall at the right.  I don't know exactly where this falls on the 36 holes they did build; I do know that there were several holes at the bottom end of the Moonah course that are very similar to our routing for that portion of the site.


7.  The Prairie Club, Valentine, NE, 2002.  Jim Urbina and I spent a couple of days in Nebraska interviewing with Dr. Trimble for the design job at The Prairie Club.  We actually did a full 18-hole routing just walking the site, but we never put it on paper, as far as I remember.  Cleve decided to hire Gil Hanse instead, partly on the rationale that he thought I had already built my masterpiece at Pacific Dunes, and wouldn't be motivated to top it.  I told him he didn't understand me too well!  This is the property that Gil & Geoff will build Paul Schock's third course upon, if in fact it ever gets built, and it's one of the best I've ever seen.

Best hole:  I can't remember the number, but there was a terrific long 4 across a little dip in front of the tee and down through a natural clearing in the trees, with the canyon off to the left.


*8.  St. Andrews Beach (Fingal), Victoria, Australia, 2003.  My original involvement with St. Andrews Beach dates back to 1999 or 2000.  David Inglis knew that I was bummed not to have gotten the job at The National, and figured I would be motivated to do something good here.  [David understood me much better than Dr. Trimble! :) ]  My original plan for the property was for 27 holes; most of them are part of the Gunnamatta course, but several great holes were going to be part of the second 18, which Mike Clayton helped to route.  Now that they've lost 20 acres of the site in the receivership, it would be impossible for the new owner to build that routing, and it's likely a lot of the best holes will have to be changed to make another 18 fit.

Best hole:  The short par-4 sixteenth, which would have played across the valley to the left of #16 on the Gunnamatta, back toward the clubhouse.  The green site was up high, and you could either try to drive it up there, or lay up down at the bottom on the bee line, or play to a ramp of fairway that came up toward the green from the right, which wasn't quite as big a carry.  In fact, the last three holes of the Fingal were all from my original 27-hole routing, and I thought each of those was among the best holes on the property.


*9.  The Harmony Club, Lake Oconee, GA, 2003.  This private club project near Cuscowilla and Reynolds Plantation made some headlines on Golf Club Atlas when the founders were trying to raise funds.  They sold a bunch of memberships in escrow, but not enough to make it happen, and eventually sold their lease on the property over to Reynolds Plantation, who are just sitting on it now.  I thought the routing we had put together was special, with three or four holes right down on the lake.

Best hole:  The long 17th, which would have been either a very long par-4 or short par-5, downhill and playing out across open ground to a green looking down and out along Lake Oconee.


10.  Castlegregory, Ireland, 2003-04.  I made three trips to this property on the Dingle Peninsula, where Bill Coore and I had been hired to design 36 holes side by side on some common-owned land that our American client had tied up for developing the courses.  My site was on Dingle Bay; Bill's was across the road on the ocean side of a narrow north-south spit of land.  We both completed our routings, but our client suddenly lost interest during the permitting phase [I think because of cash flow issues], and he allowed his option agreements on the land to expire.  Others have looked into this property with the idea of resurrecting the project, but one who did told me that the previous client had burned so many bridges locally that it would never happen.

Best hole:  There were a few of them here.  The long par-4 thirteenth, with a green set high in the dunes, would have been a stunner; and the very next hole would have been a 280-yard par 4 across wrinkly ground with the green in a narrow hollow.  There was a par-3 out along Dingle Bay that was just laying there, too … I think it was going to be the ninth in our last version of the plan.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2011, 08:05:49 PM »
Tom,

The tee shot on that par five the Upper Course (It was the 8th hole I think) is now pretty close to the tee shot on Norman's 2nd hole. He and Bob Harrison swung the long second shot way to the right instead of going left and up that narrow valley.
It is a pity that hole never was built - it would have been one of the best handful in the country.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2011, 08:46:30 PM »
Tom,

The tee shot on that par five the Upper Course (It was the 8th hole I think) is now pretty close to the tee shot on Norman's 2nd hole. He and Bob Harrison swung the long second shot way to the right instead of going left and up that narrow valley.
It is a pity that hole never was built - it would have been one of the best handful in the country.


Mike:

That is certainly one of the best sites for a golf course I've seen.  I thought at the time that it would be inevitable that they would build at least one of the top 100 courses in the world there.  But they didn't.

I thought your comment when we drove in to look at the courses a couple of years later was really insightful.  The most exciting characteristic of the land was all of the contour, and you could see all of it clearly when it was grazed down by the cattle.  But once they "defined" the golf holes, the endless contour was interrupted by a bunch of mowing lines and golf holes, and it went away!!  It would be a much cooler course if they just gang-mowed the whole place ... which would make more sense if they had put some holes closer together.  I keep thinking that someday I will find a site in the Sand Hills to pull off that look.

David_Elvins

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Re: The Eighteen Best Courses I Never Got To Build
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2011, 08:56:28 PM »

...Norman's 2nd hole. He and Bob Harrison swung the long second shot way to the right instead of going left and up that narrow valley.
It is a pity that hole never was built - it would have been one of the best handful in the country.


I thought your comment when we drove in to look at the courses a couple of years later was really insightful.  The most exciting characteristic of the land was all of the contour, and you could see all of it clearly when it was grazed down by the cattle.  But once they "defined" the golf holes, the endless contour was interrupted by a bunch of mowing lines and golf holes, and it went away!!

I was going to say that Mike was being a bit harsh on the current second hole on the Moonah course which is one of Australia's best par 5s, but Tom has also hit on something else I have been thinking which is: How do you get a hole on that property looking so flat? Interesting observation.
 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

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